Do Pentecostals really speak in Languages? The Research

[SteveCaruso]

then suddenly the whole world was divided at the time of Nimrod into many languages and they could not understand one another .. interesting huh, in one instant they all spoke many different tongues .

And each of those varied tongues in that pericope *had* structure and syntax, conveyed *information*, and could (assumedly) be *taught* to others. Modern "tongues" don't do that. So even this example falls flat.

 

[SteveCaruso]

if they truly speak tongues in faith , why would they seek verification from the carnal world

If they were told it was a specific language by God one would think God not to be a liar. All Biblical tongues *are* interpreted and are human-understandable. If they *aren't* they aren't genuine tongues – like every example of "tongues" in the Pentecostal tradition that I have seen to date.

 

[Alithis]

All that is cute, but has nothing to do with the point at hand.
BTW, name any one language that was "created" on that fateful day in Babel.
Other than Finnish and a couple of African languages, the history and sources of all human languages are known.
None of them started at Babel.

i took you for some one that believed the bible .. was i wrong to assume that ?

 

[Alithis]

All Biblical tongues *are* interpreted and are human-understandable.

are they ... ? when peter saw the gentiles speak in tongues he never said he understood them at all ..it an assumption your inserting to push your point . i get it that you don't believe. i get it that because you cant fathom it from your natural mind that you reject it . I get it that some folks have come to you to get you to translate their tongues to see what language they may be speaking and you have been unable to come up a valid translation ..
and all that proves absolutely one thing only ..it proves that you have been unable to come up with a valid translation . that's it .

 

[Postvieww]

Languages in the Bible like modern "tongues."

You have put your focus on tongues in the book of Acts please spend some time explaining what Paul had to say about this topic in the book of 1 Corinthians. Looking forward to some scholarly exegesis.

 

[Postvieww]

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

Would this one place be the upper room? Would this just be about 120 believers?

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Do we have any mention of interpretations or specific languages spoken?

5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

Sounds to me like this is a separate event. Would this multitude fit in the upper room? It was noised abroad what happened in the first event, there had to be time for the multitude to assemble.

7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

We really have no idea what languages were spoken when the Spirit fell on them originally as cloven tongues of fire do we?

12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

Would it be at least reasonable exegesis to say the display of the tongues for the multitude may have had a different purpose than when the Spirit originally fell because the unbelieving multitude were not present and only the believers Jesus told to wait were there (about 120)?

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

Thus, if the mode of communication is thought alone, there is no LANGUAGE involved.
It is the direct transmission of concepts. Commonly called telepathy.

Oh come on, you think there is thought WITHOUT language?

I suppose one can somewhat "think" in terms of merely a series of pictures (in one's mind, of course), but if one is talking COMMUNICATION, then I wonder what that could be to be sensible and serious if it does NOT include the words of a language?

I guess you want to say "being led by the Holy Spirit" is some sort of telepathy?
You get some picture without any words being involved? Like a private video in your head, existing in your head, and some place else it comes from?

 

[SteveCaruso]

I get it that some folks have come to you to get you to translate their tongues to see what language they may be speaking and you have been unable to come up a valid translation ..
and all that proves absolutely one thing only ..it proves that you have been unable to come up with a valid translation . that's it .

These people came to me saying that God told them that their tongues were in a specific language (Aramaic). It's the reason I was sought out. They were not speaking in Aramaic. Is God, then, a liar? Or were all ~100 of these people faking it?

And as far as what can and what can't be translated, virtually any trained linguist can identify asemic content and call it what it is.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

These people came to me saying that God told them that their tongues were in a specific language (Aramaic). It's the reason I was sought out. They were not speaking in Aramaic. Is God, then, a liar? Or were all ~100 of these people faking it?

And as far as what can and what can't be translated, virtually any trained linguist can identify asemic content and call it what it is.

Faking might be too strong a word in that it implies intentional dishonesty. What you describe seems instead to be an example of what the Russian Orthodox monastic tradition refers to as prelest.

On the other hand, if you got the impression you were in fact being lied to, that is compelling, particularly if the individuals were, ehh, intellectually lacking.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Out of roughly 100 cases seeking authentication, zero were genuine.

The fruits of this sort of thing speak for themselves here.

It would amuse me to intentionally slur and otherwise modify liturgical Syriac or another Aramaic dialect in a peculiar manner and then attempt to prank you.

 

[Truly1999]

My mother was marginalized and left the church because of it. Although she led a saintly life she just would not b overcome with the urgency to drop and roll on the floor or utter sounds. So in tears she asked the pastor why and he told her to pray for one week. So after fervid week of silent supplications and she once again attended church full of expectations and all around her were women rolling and uttering sounds but she still, like some pariah, remained untouched. When she once more told the pastor he said that she must have some hidden sin which was obstructing the holy spirit. That accusation was unfounded and she decided that if God was rejecting her then she might as well not impose her presence and leave.

Carefully constructed theology over the decades since the recent Asuza Street phenomenon has acted as a solid 'scientific' foundation to prove to Pentecostal church members that 'tongues' is a language. A huge weight of 'evidence' from theological colleges and pastors is stacked up against the individual church member to act as evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit.

I was marginalised because I could not speak in tongues or pray in tongues.

I believe that the God gives the gift of tongues to some people and not to others - not because of sin but for reasons none of us really know.

 

[Radrook]

Carefully constructed theology over the decades since the recent Asuza Street phenomenon has acted as a solid 'scientific' foundation to prove to Pentecostal church members that 'tongues' is a language. A huge weight of 'evidence' from theological colleges and pastors is stacked up against the individual church member to act as evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit.

I was marginalised because I could not speak in tongues or pray in tongues.

I believe that the God gives the gift of tongues to some people and not to others - not because of sin but for reasons none of us really know.

I wasn't familiar with your Azusa Street reference but came across this in my research:

AZUSA STREET


Azusa Street is in Los Angeles, California, USA. The church there experienced its phenomena in the first decade of this century (20th). However, the same phenomena had occurred many times before, in the previous century, though not in such an organized way. The man who first organized Pentecostalist ideas into a theology was Charles Parham. He has the distinction of being the ‘father’ of modern Pentecostalism/charismaticism. His contemporary, W. J. Seymour, helped to spread the new theology and manifestations. (Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements, Zondervan Publishing House, 1988, and ‘The Holiness Pentecostal Movement in the United States’ by William Eerds, Grand Rapids, 1971).


The Azusa Street church held its historic meetings three times a day, seven days a week, and sometimes all night as well, for three years. (Note how the time scale and number of meetings coincides with that of the ‘official’ period of the Toronto Blessing?). Just as with the Toronto Blessing people flocked from around the world to experience ‘Pentecostalism’. And what was experienced?


“…a woman…stood shaking from head to foot…a man in front of her slid down out of his chair and became unconscious…the man…was…under high nerve pressure…He arose, staggered to them and began to shake his hand in front of their faces and wave his arms over their heads and moan…Then he put his hands on the heads of the women and began to shake their hair. Some of them lost control of themselves and went under an hypnotic spell. He rubbed a man’s jaw until the victim tumbled over on the floor and lay for half an hour, then suddenly began to jabber. Those who had received their ‘Pentecost’ cried out, ‘He has the baptism, he has the baptism!’.


A young coloured woman, doing her best to get the gibberish, went through all kinds of contortions in her effort to get her tongue to work.
…a coloured woman had her arms around a white man’s neck, praying for him. A man of maturer years leaped up out of his chair and began to stutter. He did not utter a distinct syllable…’tut-tut-tut-tut-tut-tut’. This was evidence that he had his ‘baptism’. (the first woman mentioned) this time singing a far-away tune that sounded very unnatural and repulsive…When the altar call was made, a woman walked up to the front and kissed a man…kissing between the sexes is a common occurrence in the tongue meetings.” (An eyewitness account in ‘Demons and Tongues’ by Alma White; Pillar of Fire Publishers, 1949). Classic early Pentecostalism – and classic 1990’s charismaticism. Both the same!
Here is another eye-witness account: “(Shumway – an author)…attended a ‘Pentecostal’ meeting where pandemonium was loose (Ed. Look up the meaning of ‘pandemonium’.

This is what Shumway was referring to). Men and women…were talking excitedly ‘in tongues’. A man (holding on to a post) seemed to be in possession of an old-fashioned Peter Cartwright camp-meeting (charismatic-style antics in the previous century – see BTM article) case of the jerks. He was muttering and mumbling most of the time, but would (also) shriek. About sixty or seventy of the three hundred present were ‘possessed of the spirit’ (Ed. I refuse to prefix the word ‘spirit’ with a capital ‘S’. It is not the Holy Spirit) and each was (trying to be louder than the others).


One of the three men…leading the meeting…was praying…kneeling upon an open Bible…
He was almost beside himself with excitement, His arms waved and his body swayed. I thought…that he might be heard two blocks away. In this meeting there was barking like dogs, hooting like owls, and the like…After adjourning, one of the leaders remarked in my hearing ‘God had a wonderful hold on this meeting for a little while, didn’t He?’. (The same man then added) ‘God’s got a crowd ‘o folks here that’s willin’ to let him make fools of ‘em if he wants to.’ ”
http://www.scionofzion.com/azusa_street.htm

 

[Widlast]

Oh come on, you think there is thought WITHOUT language?

I suppose one can somewhat "think" in terms of merely a series of pictures (in one's mind, of course), but if one is talking COMMUNICATION, then I wonder what that could be to be sensible and serious if it does NOT include the words of a language?

I guess you want to say "being led by the Holy Spirit" is some sort of telepathy?
You get some picture without any words being involved? Like a private video in your head, existing in your head, and some place else it comes from?

How to explain color to a blind man?

 

[Widlast]

i took you for some one that believed the bible .. was i wrong to assume that ?

Believed the Bible. There is a loaded statement. What exactly do you mean by that?
The Bible is impeccable as far as salvation is concerned. Not so much for science and history.
You forget that it was the Church that was instituted by Christ, not a book.

 

[Radrook]

Believed the Bible. There is a loaded statement. What exactly do you mean by that?
The Bible is impeccable as far as salvation is concerned. Not so much for science and history.
You forget that it was the Church that was instituted by Christ, not a book.

How is the Bible flawed in history and science? If indeed it is inspired, then being flawed in any of the twain puts that inspiration claim in doubt.

 

[Radrook]

How to explain color to a blind man?

The problem is that nowhere in the Bible are Jesus and his disciples described as yelping, growling, barking, chirping, ululating, or dropping to floor and rolling. If indeed they were depicted behaving that way under the influence of the Holy Spirit, then we could not argue about this with you. But as it stands, we don't see such behavior. Instead we are told that the Holy Spirit brings self control not loss of it, and are told that the languages uttered at Pentecost were REAL languages.

BTW
Ominously, those who are repeatedly depicted lacking control of their bodies and uttering things they have no control over and rolling around are the demon possessed.

 

[Truly1999]

Every generation from every walk of life searches for its own "Holy Grail". In Medicine it is the "magic bullet". In Christianity it is - among charismatics at least - the Holy Grail is access to Heaven on Earth through a "divine exchange" involving a "heavenly language" which is classed as a language which needs interpreting - one person utters the message and another interprets.

Many Christians focus on the Holy Spirit when the real focus is supposed to be the founder of the faith, Jesus Christ


Sent from my D2303 using Tapatalk

 

[Postvieww]

ince no one else will in earnest deal with what Paul has to say about the topic at hand, here goes.

1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

How can we claim to not be ignorant on this topic if we IGNOR Paul’s teaching on it?

2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Any and all prophetic declarations or utterances in tongues in corporate worship are to be judged or interpreted, here is but one of the tests.

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

All manifestations of the Spirit are for our benefit that would include but is not exclusive to tongues.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

Now since all of these different manifestations are given by the Spirit “to profit withal” on what authority, does any man, teacher, denomination , or church leader remove any or all of them by declaring they are not for today, or are false?

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

AS God wills , not as man teaches.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.

15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

12 thru 17 give us a truth many in our churches have a tough time grasping.

18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

“as it hath pleased him”

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

Can the Baptists say I have no need of the Pentecostals or the Pentecostals say I have no need of the Catholics on and on?

22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

A sermon in this verse.

23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

Are we beginning to get the impression Paul is speaking out against our divisions on this topic?

26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Whatever your church group or denomination you are just a part of the whole.

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Let’s all let this verse sink in, “GOD HATH SET”, your pastor has not set , your denomination has not set, your or my opinions have not set, any of these gifts in the church. Woe be it unto any man who thinks he can explain away with human reasoning what God hath set in the church.


Tongues may be the last in the list but it is still in the list and I guarantee you no man on this forum has the authority to remove it or define it out of existence.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

No, all do not have these gifts but they are in the church to profit withal. Remove them at your own loss and peril.

31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Please don’t make the mistake of thinking you can remove verses 1 thru 30 with verse 31.



If I were to try and intellectually reason with any one of you that your born again experience was not real and had no basis in scripture, what would you say? It is you who had the experience and you who knows the changes Christ has made in your life it is you who knows what He has done for you. The same applies here, you may have been taught all of this was for another time and passed away and may honestly believe that but to try and convince someone who has experienced the power of God through some of these gifts of the Spirit is not going to get must traction.


I personally have been healed in a service where these gifts were flowing , a man of God who moved in several of these gifts laid his hand on me told me of an ailment I had for years in my body but I had never spoke of it to any human being and he declared I was healed by the power of God . I was and that was about 30 years ago and that problem has never returned. Don’t even try to convince me these gifts are not real and for us today. If you can’t accept what Paul says about all of this all I can say is pray about it.
After giving this testimony on another thread one individual tried to imply it might have been the devil that healed me, don't even go there.

 

[Radrook]

ince no one else will in earnest deal with what Paul has to say about the topic at hand, here goes.

1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

How can we claim to not be ignorant on this topic if we IGNOR Paul’s teaching on it?

2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Any and all prophetic declarations or utterances in tongues in corporate worship are to be judged or interpreted, here is but one of the tests.

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

All manifestations of the Spirit are for our benefit that would include but is not exclusive to tongues.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

Now since all of these different manifestations are given by the Spirit “to profit withal” on what authority, does any man, teacher, denomination , or church leader remove any or all of them by declaring they are not for today, or are false?

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

AS God wills , not as man teaches.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.

15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

12 thru 17 give us a truth many in our churches have a tough time grasping.

18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

“as it hath pleased him”

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

Can the Baptists say I have no need of the Pentecostals or the Pentecostals say I have no need of the Catholics on and on?

22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

A sermon in this verse.

23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

Are we beginning to get the impression Paul is speaking out against our divisions on this topic?

26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Whatever your church group or denomination you are just a part of the whole.

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Let’s all let this verse sink in, “GOD HATH SET”, your pastor has not set , your denomination has not set, your or my opinions have not set, any of these gifts in the church. Woe be it unto any man who thinks he can explain away with human reasoning what God hath set in the church.


Tongues may be the last in the list but it is still in the list and I guarantee you no man on this forum has the authority to remove it or define it out of existence.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

No, all do not have these gifts but they are in the church to profit withal. Remove them at your own loss and peril.

31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Please don’t make the mistake of thinking you can remove verses 1 thru 30 with verse 31.



If I were to try and intellectually reason with any one of you that your born again experience was not real and had no basis in scripture, what would you say? It is you who had the experience and you who knows the changes Christ has made in your life it is you who knows what He has done for you. The same applies here, you may have been taught all of this was for another time and passed away and may honestly believe that but to try and convince someone who has experienced the power of God through some of these gifts of the Spirit is not going to get must traction.


I personally have been healed in a service where these gifts were flowing , a man of God who moved in several of these gifts laid his hand on me told me of an ailment I had for years in my body but I had never spoke of it to any human being and he declared I was healed by the power of God . I was and that was about 30 years ago and that problem has never returned. Don’t even try to convince me these gifts are not real and for us today. If you can’t accept what Paul says about all of this all I can say is pray about it.
After giving this testimony on another thread one individual tried to imply it might have been the devil that healed me, don't even go there.

Miracles aren't necessarily evidence of divine approval or source.


Matthew 7:21-23New King James Version (NKJV)
I Never Knew You

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

The magic practicing priest of Egypt imitated many of the plagues:

...We know from scripture that the world we live in is one in which there is a real spiritual battle going on all around us. God is the great God of power, but his kingdom on earth was usurped by Satan back in Genesis 3. That means there are spiritual forces, with unexplainable spiritual powers in this world. Paul dealt with this in Acts, Jesus confronted it often in the Gospels. Thus, it is also perfectly logical and within Biblical precedent to arrive at the conclusion that Pharaoh’s magicians, by some type of ancient divination had tapped into a source of power other than God (a practice explicitly forbidden by God Deuteronomy 18:10; Leviticus 19:26). All this to say, some other spiritual power could have been allowing them to perform real magic.

 

[Postvieww]

Miracles aren't necessarily evidence of divine approval or source.


Matthew 7:21-23New King James Version (NKJV)
I Never Knew You

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

The magic practicing priest of Egypt imitated many of the plagues:

Agreed, but denying these things exist in the church today based on the teaching of scripture denying teachers does not prove they speak for God either.


Attributing the works of God to the evil one when someone really doesn’t know anything about the situation is not wise as well.