Do Pentecostals really speak in Languages? The Research

[Postvieww]

You may want to understand the wisdom of using the word 'unknown' by KJV. It refers to the situation wherein an interpreter is required to act on behalf of the person speaking unknown tongue whereas when the Holy Spirit utters through a person such a strange arrangement is not required. That is the case in the entire book of Acts, not so in immature and notorious Corinth.



Indeed it is the pitfall of Pentecostal theology because 'unknown' word speaking is being treated on par with known foreign language.



True. All kinds of Tom, Dick and Harry are giving their versions without any emptying of themselves and sacrifice. It has become a livelihood.



Paul never equated spirit filled utterances through the help of the Holy Spirit with unknown tongue. I have started a new thread separately in controversial section titled "Skewed and distracting theology on unknown tongues." You are welcome to join there.



You are connecting two different issues. Inspired Paul did not include unknown tongue as inspired by the Holy Spirit. Instead, he said it is person's spirit that utters.



May I take that as a good excuse to escape reply since you don't have valid reasons to answer my query?



Unknown signifies the involvement of person's spirit, not that of the Holy Spirit.

Righttruth said:

You are connecting two different issues. Inspired Paul did not include unknown tongue as inspired by the Holy Spirit. Instead, he said it is person's spirit that utters.

You are trying to make a difference where there is not one. Tongues in Public worship should be interpreted tongues in private prayer do not need to be interpreted. The source is the same. Tongues given in public to be interpreted are a gift not all believers have but prayer in tongues is for all believers that will accept it! You included.

Paul did say my spirit prayeth but who’s Spirit is in the heart (spirit) of the believer?

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

In Romans 8:9, Romans 8:10, Romans 8:1, Romans 8:16, all of these scriptures say the Spirit is within us. Who do you think is causing theses “groanings” where do you think the words come from when a believer prays in tongues? All tongues proceed from the Spirit. Your focus on Paul’s statement “My spirit prayeth” is taken out of context.

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

If Jesus did not have the Sprit by measure but by implication He had the fullness of the Spirit would it not stand to reason that at conversion we as believers do not have the fullness of the Spirit but are commanded to be filled with the Spirit?

John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

The Spirit was given to believers in John 20:22 the enduement of power was given in Acts 2. In John 20 Jesus had been glorified.

Luke 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

This does not say tarry until ye be saved. I believe that happened in John 20.


What about Paul in Acts 9:6 Paul said Lord what wilt thou have me do, he did not have wait in blindness to be saved but he did have to wait to be healed and filled with the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands in this case. Ananias called him “Brother Saul”.

Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

This passage does not say Ananias layed hands on Saul for him to be saved , Saul met Jesus on the road.

 

[Righttruth]

Replied below

 

[Righttruth]

Postvieww said

Righttruth said:

You are connecting two different issues. Inspired Paul did not include unknown tongue as inspired by the Holy Spirit. Instead, he said it is person's spirit that utters.

You are trying to make a difference where there is not one. Tongues in Public worship should be interpreted tongues in private prayer do not need to be interpreted. The source is the same.

The source is same of a person. Nevertheless, there is a big spiritual difference. One is directly prompted by the Holy Spirit that requires no interpretation by another agent. Unknown tongue requires interpretation which was observed in Corinth.

Tongues given in public to be interpreted are a gift not all believers have but prayer in tongues is for all believers that will accept it! You included.

A tongue (unknown) that requires interpretation is not of that of the Holy Spirit.

Paul did say my spirit prayeth but who’s Spirit is in the heart (spirit) of the believer?

The Holy Spirit resides in the heart of a believer. And He helps those who yield to Him. It doesn't mean everything a believer does is directed by the Holy Spirit since a believer is yet a sinner subjected to temptations and many a time falling for it.

Romans 8:26

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

So groanings that are not uttered.

All tongues proceed from the Spirit. Your focus on Paul’s statement “My spirit prayeth” is taken out of context.

Have you not observed nominal believers cursing and blasphemying God? Paul's statement is correct right on the context and place, that is, Corinth.

John 14:17

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

This can never be applied to immature mockers in Corinth.

John 3:34

For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

No wonder John was never exposed to unknown tongue phenomenon, and never mentions in any of his writings.

If Jesus did not have the Sprit by measure but by implication He had the fullness of the Spirit would it not stand to reason that at conversion we as believers do not have the fullness of the Spirit but are commanded to be filled with the Spirit?

Filling with the Spirit leads to the fruit, not unknown tongue.

John 7:39

(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

That was for other disciples and believers.

The Spirit was given to believers in John 20:22the enduement of power was given in Acts 2. In John 20 Jesus had been glorified.

The Spirit was given to only eleven chosen apostles in John 20:22, and others got in Acts.

This does not say tarry until ye be saved. I believe that happened in John 20.

Only those who endure to the end will be saved.

What about Paul in Acts 9:6 Paul said Lord what wilt thou have me do, he did not have wait in blindness to be saved but he did have to wait to be healed and filled with the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hand in this case. Ananias called him “Brother Saul”.Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

He did not speak in unknown tongue after baptism

 

[Alithis]

my spirit speaks but my understanding is unfruitful..

interesting isn't it .. when we are raised again after being buried with christ into his death ,as "a new creation ' it is not I that live but Christ that lives in me .. i'm made one with him thus if my spirit speaks it is his spirit for my spirit was dead in sin .. but now HIS spirit lives in me and quickens my mortal body .so if my spirit and his spirit are now made one ,mine being dead but his being alive forever more .. who is it then that speaks ? it is christ . For it is NO LONGER i that lives but Christ that lives IN me and the life i now live in the flesh i live by The faith of the son of god .

 

[Radrook]

Scripture ended with the OT, and canon is man-made. What was specifically written to notorious Corinthian church of immature believers cannot be applied to mature Christians.

So according to you the Gospels of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John as well as Acts of the Apostles are bogus?

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Scripture ended with the OT, and canon is man-made. What was specifically written to notorious Corinthian church of immature believers cannot be applied to mature Christians.

Both of these points are of course false; the canon is divinely inspired, and the epistle to Corinthians has been held to be universally applicable since the first century, which is why it was preserved whereas other correspondance of St. Paul such as the elusive letter to the Laodiceans was discarded.

 

[Righttruth]

So according to you the Gospels of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John as well as Acts of the Apostles are bogus?

They are not bogus. They are all relevant writings that help us to know more about the Son with the help of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Righttruth]

Both of these points are of course false; the canon is divinely inspired, and the epistle to Corinthians has been held to be universally applicable since the first century, which is why it was preserved whereas other correspondance of St. Paul such as the elusive letter to the Laodiceans was discarded.

The paramount yardstick is the books of the Gospel that contain the words of the Word. Even certain epistles of Paul of the canon are disputable with regard to the authorship.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

The paramount yardstick is the books of the Gospel that contain the words of the Word. Even certain epistles of Paul of the canon are disputable with regard to the authorship.

John 1:1 clearly identifies our Lord as the incarnate Word of God. Ergo, we cannot accept a definition of the word that would exclude Him in any sense, which redefining the Word to refer to the OT exclusively would.

I should also note the contents of the OT in terms of canon is also a matter of opinion, the opinion of the Church and/or Judaism depending on how one regards the so-called "apocrypha."

 

[Radrook]

They are not bogus. They are all relevant writings that help us to know more about the Son with the help of the Holy Spirit.

I was responding to your following statement:

"Scripture ended with the OT, and canon is man-made. What was specifically written to notorious Corinthian church of immature believers cannot be applied to mature Christians."

 

[Deadworm]

(1) In the 1960s, Dennis Balcombe attended a Pentecostal church near Los Angeles. The interpretation of a message in tongues called Dennis to be a missionary to China. A visiting Jew from Israel confirmed that the interpretation was an accurate translation of Hebrew. Balcombe played a major role in Bible distribution in China and in the transformation of most of China's house churches into charismatic churches. For a more detailed description of Balcomb's epic contribution to Chinese Christianity, see David Aikman's astounding book, "Jesus in Beijing."

(2) Loren Cunningham, founder of Youth with a Mission, told me about an awkward encounter with an Amazon village. One lady approached him with a severe case of cataracts. Loren prayed for her and she was deeply moved as the cataracts vanished and she saw clearly. He and his associates didn't speak their language, but Loren spoke in tongues in that tribe's language and the people were richly blessed.

(3) In a Pentecostal church in Saskatchewan, Canada, a couple were deeply concerned about their missionary daughter who was reportedly too deathly ill in a jungle village to walk the long distance for transport to a good hospital for treatment. In response to the parents' request for prayer, there was a message in tongues and an interpretation that assured the church that God had given the young missionary a healing touch and that they would be contacted by her soon. An African present in that church confirmed that the message in tongues was in Swahili and that the interpretation was accurate. The interpretation of tongues was soon fulfilled in a glorious contact with the daughter. These examples could be multiplied.

i grew up in a Pentecostal church in Winnipeg, Canada and have a lifelong exposure to glossolalia. In my view, most of it is "of the flesh," but when it is genuine, it can be by far the most powerful experience of divine love imaginable. At age 16, I had an experience of tongues so wonderfully intense that I feared it would kill me! Wave after wave of liquid love engulfed me, each wave more beautiful and intense than the last. I am naturally very skeptical and am still a Christian largely because of that incredible experience at age 16.

One older Christian sat in awe in the darkened amphitheatre, witnessing my ecstasy. She later told me my face was glowing in the dark. A Lutheran pastor approached me and said, "I don't really believe in Pentecostalism, but I can tell God is doing something unique in your life. Would you pray for me?" I merely touched him gently on the forehead and he exploded into glossolalia!

As Mnoorian points, out, Paul teaches that tongues can express angelic as well as human languages. No other experience known to man can even remotely convey divine love more powerfully than SOME experiences of glossolalia!

 

[Righttruth]

I was responding to your following statement:

"Scripture ended with the OT, and canon is man-made. What was specifically written to notorious Corinthian church of immature believers cannot be applied to mature Christians."

Sure, Paul did not write Corinthians to you and me. He wrote specifically to them using his widom for the problems he heard through reports sitting at a far off place. As Peter warns, his letters are being distorted by many to their own destruction.

 

[Radrook]

Sure, Paul did not write Corinthians to you and me. He wrote specifically to them using his widom for the problems he heard through reports sitting at a far off place. As Peter warns, his letters are being distorted by many to their own destruction.

Where exactly did Peter refer specifically to Paul's letters to the Corinthians in that way?

 

[Righttruth]

Where exactly did Peter refer specifically to Paul's letters to the Corinthians in that way?

2 Peter 3:15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

 

[Postvieww]

Postvieww said

Righttruth said:

You are connecting two different issues. Inspired Paul did not include unknown tongue as inspired by the Holy Spirit. Instead, he said it is person's spirit that utters.

Your logic is flawed.


1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.


4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.


6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.





1 Corinthians 14:15 (Amplified Bible (AMP) Then what am I to do? I will pray with the [d]spirit [by the Holy Spirit that is within me] and I will pray with the mind [using words I understand]; I will sing with the spirit [by the Holy Spirit that is within me] and I will sing with the mind [using words I understand].

Praying in tongues is not some carnal,fleshly exercise without the participation of the Spirit within the spirit of the believer!

Righttruth said:

The source is same of a person. Nevertheless, there is a big spiritual difference. One is directly prompted by the Holy Spirit that requires no interpretation by another agent. Unknown tongue requires interpretation which was observed in Corinth.

You are confusing the facts here.


Tongues in puplic service that do require interpretation ARE prompted by the Holy Spirit, 1 Corinthians 12:4-11


If you will look closely at the context of 1 Corin 14 and forget the added by the translators word “unknown” you will see the only difference in the tongues that need to be translated VS the ones that do not, is the context in which they are used, not as you suggest one is prompted by the Spirit and the other is not. If one speaks in tongues in a public setting that should be interpreted for the benefit of the unlearned or unsaved, if one prays in tongues that does not need to be interpreted because the believer is not speaking to men but to God.

Righttruth said:

A tongue (unknown) that requires interpretation is not of that of the Holy Spirit.

Completely false without basis in scripture!



Righttruth said:

This can never be applied to immature mockers in Corinth.

1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:


Your claim John 14:17 cannot be applied to the Church at Corinth is false.


You can truthful say they needed correction but no doubt they were born again believers.

Righttruth said:

Have you not observed nominal believers cursing and blasphemying God? Paul's statement is correct right on the context and place, that is, Corinth.

No believer nominal or otherwise will curse and blaspheme God without complete apostasy, that is another topic!

Righttruth said:

The Spirit was given to only eleven chosen apostles in John 20:22, and others got in Acts.

Wrong John 20:22 is a separate event from Acts 2 and the 11 were present and all 120 were filled in Acts 2.


Act 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.


13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.

14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.


15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)



Acts 2:2 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.


2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.


3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.


4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Righttruth said:

He did not speak in unknown tongue after baptism

When do you suggest he started?


He said in 1 Corinthians he spoke in tongues more than them all.


You would be more accurate if you said the scripture does not tell us he spoke with tongues after he was healed or filled with the Holy Ghost or baptized.

Truth is we are not told when he began to speak in tongues, so you cannot definitely say he did not when he was filled with the Holy Ghost.

 

[Righttruth]

Righttruth said:

You are connecting two different issues. Inspired Paul did not include unknown tongue as inspired by the Holy Spirit. Instead, he said it is person's spirit that utters.

Your logic is flawed.

That very well applies to your misplaced logic based on misinterpretation

1 Corinthians 12:3

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

One cannot claim to say Jesus is Lord by speaking in unknown tongue. He might as well be calling Jesus accursed. How do you know?

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.


6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

Not applicable to unknown tongue because the Holy Spirit cannot utter an unknown tongue! If you claimed that He does, then it is pure blasphemy!

1 Corinthians 14:15 (Amplified Bible (AMP) Then what am I to do? I will pray with the [d]spirit [by the Holy Spirit that is within me] and I will pray with the mind [using words I understand]; I will sing with the spirit [by the Holy Spirit that is within me] and I will sing with the mind [using words I understand].

Anything added or inserted in the Bible is Satanic. All kinds of biased versions are coming up like mushrooms.

Praying in tongues is not some carnal,fleshly exercise without the participation of the Spirit within the spirit of the believer!

A tall claim which even Paul did not make!

Righttruth said:

The source is same of a person. Nevertheless, there is a big spiritual difference. One is directly prompted by the Holy Spirit that requires no interpretation by another agent. Unknown tongue requires interpretation which was observed in Corinth.

You are confusing the facts here.

There can be no confusion when I am calling a spade a spade, no twisting or extrapolation has been done.

Tongues in puplic service that do require interpretation ARE prompted by the Holy Spirit, 1 Corinthians 12:4-11

That is known tongue

If you will look closely at the context of 1 Corin 14 and forget the added by the translators word “unknown” you will see the only difference in the tongues that need to be translated VS the ones that do not, is the context in which they are used, not as you suggest one is prompted by the Spirit and the other is not. If one speaks in tongues in a public setting that should be interpreted for the benefit of the unlearned or unsaved, if one prays in tongues that does not need to be interpreted because the believer is not speaking to men but to God.

I am not bothered, neither Paul did, when one speaks to God in private in whatever manner doing acrobatics or rolling all over the floor with loud noise! Anything that needs interpretation is from the emotional person speaking what he himself doesn't know.

Righttruth said:

A tongue (unknown) that requires interpretation is not of that of the Holy Spirit.

Completely false without basis in scripture!

That is what Paul said.



Righttruth said:

This can never be applied to immature mockers in Corinth.

1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints,

with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:


Your claim John 14:17 cannot be applied to the Church at Corinth is false.


You can truthful say they needed correction but no doubt they were born again believers.

The issue here is unknown tongue, so the above verses are unrelated.

Righttruth said:

Have you not observed nominal believers cursing and blasphemying God? Paul's statement is correct right on the context and place, that is, Corinth.

No believer nominal or otherwise will curse and blaspheme God without complete apostasy, that is another topic!

One may be doing that? How do you know when he is making strange noise and sounds resembling an animal!

Righttruth said:

The Spirit was given to only eleven chosen apostles in John 20:22, and others got in Acts.

Wrong John 20:22 is a separate event from Acts 2 and the 11 were present and all 120 were filled in Acts 2.

That is what I am saying with the qualification that eleven plus newly elected Matthias with 120 were there.

Righttruth said:

He did not speak in unknown tongue after baptism

When do you suggest he started?

How do I know with all that self-claims?

He said in 1 Corinthians he spoke in tongues more than them all.

It could be foreign languages being a scholar. If not, that were his unknown tongues in private.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Alithis]

2 Peter 3:15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

yup .. that's what your doing .. thanks for pointing it out . your distorting what paul wrote .. and then your giving us the warning about it yet still doing it - take a break .

 

[Righttruth]

yup .. that's what your doing .. thanks for pointing it out . your distorting what paul wrote .. and then your giving us the warning about it yet still doing it - take a break .

Paul's appendix can only cause appendicitis when you ignore the books of the Gospel.

 

[FredVB]

Any such occurrence that is from Yahweh God would further the gospel of salvation. This happened before, is what is called that which happens now doing that, or does it compete or distract from that?