Do Pentecostals really speak in Languages? The Research

[swordsman1]

Then I could counter, it does not say they did not

It is a very poor exegetical argument to reason from an absence of scripture. There is no record in John 20 of the disciples receiving the Holy Spirit when he blew on them, so there is no reason to presume they did. To say otherwise is to make an unwarranted assumption.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you

Does this passage mean the Holy Spirit could in no way be here until after Jesus left or does it mean that the Holy Spirit would come in a new way with a new mission after Jesus left. I believe scripture shows it is the later.

This verse makes no mention of the Spirit only coming in a "new way". It means what the plain reading says it means. Jesus would send the Spirit to them when he was absent from them and present with the Father (v5 "I am going to Him who sent Me"). So if the Holy Spirit was given when Jesus blew on them, Jesus was lying in this verse. Jesus went to the Father at his ascension: John 20:17 "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father"

Jesus continues:

John 16:8-11 "When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: about sin, because people do not believe in me; about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned."​

When the Spirit was sent it would result in the conviction of the world. This only began at Pentecost (Acts 2:14-41).

John 15:26-27 "When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning."
​

Here Jesus clearly says he will send the Spirit from the Father. In order to do that he must have been present with the Father, not on the Earth. Following this it says they would become witnesses, which only happened post Pentecost.

Acts 1:4 “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about."​

Here the gift of the Spirit, promised to them in John 15:26 & 16:7, was only to be given them after waiting in Jerusalem.

Acts 1:8 "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”​

The clear implication here is that the Holy Spirit had not yet come to them. But when the Spirit does come, they would receive power which only happened at Pentecost.

The Holy Spirit was here while Jesus was here as well as before Jesus became flesh.

Matthew 1:18, Matthew 3:16, Luke 1:15, Luke 1:41, Luke 1:67, Luke 2:25-26, Luke 3:22, Luke 4:1

None of those verses refer to the disciples receiving the Spirit.

It should be obvious that John 16:7 does not mean the spirit could be here in no way until Jesus left.

That's not the argument. The argument is when did the disciples receive the Spirit.

In my opinion you have reverse engineered that conclusion. You have started with your theory on what happened in Acts 2 and determined what happened in John 20 was just a “visual illustration” with no basis in the reality of what happened, because it didn’t fit your scenario.

Not at all. Since there is no evidence of the disciples receiving the Spirit when Jesus blew on them, and plenty of evidence to suggest they wouldn't until Pentecost, then a visual illustration is the only logical explanation. After all it wouldn't be the first time Jesus used such a tool (eg. John 13:5-20)

 

[Alithis]

The foreigners knew the disciples were uneducated Galileans: "Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans?" They clearly spoke with them afterwards (in Hebrew) and discovered this fact together with the fact that they didn't know their language but were speaking it miraculously.



That is not what the text says happened. You are reading something into the passage that isn't there. There is no mention of miraculous interpretation taking place in the passage. Only miraculous speaking:

All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.​

It's exactly what the text says.. They each heard them in their own tongue. You choose not to see it because of the implication.

 

[swordsman1]

It's exactly what the text says.. They each heard them in their own tongue.

Actually the verse says "each one heard their own language being spoken."

 

[Alithis]

Actually the verse says "each one heard their own language being spoken."

exactly .. amazing isn't it? -each ONE heard those speaking in tongues ..speaking in "the language of the one hearing them ".. anything else would not have been bewildering . i hear people in my multicultural city speaking other languages all the time .i'm not amazed by it at all. so it had to something more amazing them just hearing another language .

this was mystery to me until just 3 weeks ago ,what we experienced ..2 of us heard tongues the 3rd person standing right there heard English and was able to tell us what the person was saying .this was at the moment they were baptized in the Holy Ghost .

 

[swordsman1]

exactly .. amazing isn't it? -each ONE heard those speaking in tongues ..speaking in "the language of the one hearing them ".. anything else would not have been bewildering .

You don't seem to be reading the verse properly - "each one heard their own language being spoken". Their own language was being spoken. Earlier it said they "began to speak in other tongues". I don't think it can be much clearer.

i hear people in my multicultural city speaking other languages all the time .i'm not amazed by it at all. so it had to something more amazing them just hearing another language .

It would amaze you if you knew that person was not a native of that language. Wouldn't you be amazed if your mother started speaking fluent Swahili.

 

[SteveCaruso]

this was mystery to me until just 3 weeks ago ,what we experienced ..2 of us heard tongues the 3rd person standing right there heard English and was able to tell us what the person was saying .this was at the moment they were baptized in the Holy Ghost .

But that's not how the "tongues" in the Bible work. You would have been able to understand them, too, as would the person speaking in them.

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

It does not say (Acts 2:3) that the cloven tongues that "sat upon each of them," were not in their mouths. Could they have been KISSING?

That is a good way to get Spirit filled. Talk about, "speaking in own tongue." Groanings heard. Deeply. A very very “own” language. A born-with language, kissing-tongue language. Of course it is EVERYONE'S own language, what ever is said with one's tongue in someone else's mouth. Of course of OPPOSITE SEX of course!

Seeming like they might have been drinking (v.13) Of course they were not drunk, but Spirit was being poured out upon their flesh. Flesh resting in hope, (v.26) because THEIR TONGUE WAS GLAD.

Wonderful works of God indeed.

 

[Alithis]

You don't seem to be reading the verse properly - "each one heard their own language being spoken". Their own language was being spoken. Earlier it said they "began to speak in other tongues". I don't think it can be much clearer.



It would amaze you if you knew that person was not a native of that language. Wouldn't you be amazed if your mother started speaking fluent Swahili.

lol so there is 3 men .. and in front of them isa group speaking in tongues .. and each of the 3 men can hear their own language .. thats so in modern speak the german man hears german, the french man hears french and english man hears english ... but the people they are looking at are all from gallalee. see ?

 

[Alithis]

But that's not how the "tongues" in the Bible work. You would have been able to understand them, too, as would the person speaking in them.

realy ? as often i try to begin a new discourse on the topic with this Question .. have you been baptised in the holy Spirit with the evidence of tongues ?
-if yes -do you know with your natural understanding what your saying in tongues ?
if no - then how do you know "that's not how it works "

 

[SteveCaruso]

So, anyways as promised, here is a breakdown of the different patterns of Aramaic seekers who came to me to translate their tongues that "the spirit" told them were in Aramaic. They roughly fell into 3 categories which I'll list in order of largest to smallest:

Category 1: Those who personally attacked my Aramaic skills. "It *has* to be in Aramaic. You must be wrong. You must not know the dialect." I've been translating Aramaic languages for 15 years and can identify not only dialects, but in many cases sub-dialects. But they believed, a priori, that what they were told – however they were told – was the case despite all objective evidence.

Category 2: Those who were convinced that it still had to be another, language. The Aramaic that they were genuinely "told" it was was merely the mistake, and did I know anyone who I could refer them to who knows ancient Hebrew or other languages that it *could* be, etc..

Category 3: The smallest category was made up of those who were genuinely surprised or admitted that their tongues must not be what they thought they were. Only a handful actually changed their minds.

Regardless, all samples of "Aramaic tongues" I have been subjected to (sans that one deceptive case) were asemic, usually repetitive (the same 6 or 7 syllables repeated over and over was very common) with about a dozen cases with a few common, usually improperly pronounced Aramaic and Hebrew words ("meshiak" "adonooy" "yeshoouh") peppered into them that had no meaning in context.

That's where it stands.

 

[Alithis]

It does not say (Acts 2:3) that the cloven tongues that "sat upon each of them," were not in their mouths. Could they have been KISSING?

That is a good way to get Spirit filled. Talk about, "speaking in own tongue." Groanings heard. Deeply. A very very “own” language. A born-with language, kissing-tongue language. Of course it is EVERYONE'S own language, what ever is said with one's tongue in someone else's mouth. Of course of OPPOSITE SEX of course!

Seeming like they might have been drinking (v.13) Of course they were not drunk, but Spirit was being poured out upon their flesh. Flesh resting in hope, (v.26) because THEIR TONGUE WAS GLAD.

Wonderful works of God indeed.

touchy and rather carnal minded perspective ..

 

[swordsman1]

lol so there is 3 men .. and in front of them isa group speaking in tongues .. and each of the 3 men can hear their own language .. thats so in modern speak the german man hears german, the french man hears french and english man hears english ... but the people they are looking at are all from gallalee. see ?

But that is not what the passage said happened. It says "each one heard their own language being spoken" and "began to speak in other tongues".

If I said to you "I heard a Frenchman speaking English", what would you conclude? That the man was actually speaking gobbledegook, but that I miraculously I heard him in English? Or as it plainly says...the Frenchman was speaking English?

 

[SteveCaruso]

realy ? as often i try to begin a new discourse on the topic with this Question .. have you been baptised in the holy Spirit with the evidence of tongues ?
-if yes -do you know with your natural understanding what your saying in tongues ?
if no - then how do you know "that's not how it works "

Yes, in one point in my life I was absorbed into a Pentecostal group based on G12 theology. They made it a point to "speak in tongues" to prove that you "had the Holy Spirit". I went through all of that indoctrination, a lots of "worship" with examples of people "speaking in tongues". Fasting, praying, the whole nine yards.

And then I was lucky enough to get out of it.

So anything you can say, I've seen.

My experience with people asking for Aramaic confirmation happened after all of that, as I'm one of the few folks who for about 15 years did genuine Aramaic translations for the public.

 

[Alithis]

So, anyways as promised, here is a breakdown of the different patterns of Aramaic seekers who came to me to translate their tongues that "the spirit" told them were in Aramaic. They roughly fell into 3 categories which I'll list in order of largest to smallest:

Category 1: Those who personally attacked my Aramaic skills. "It *has* to be in Aramaic. You must be wrong. You must not know the dialect." I've been translating Aramaic languages for 15 years and can identify not only dialects, but in many cases sub-dialects. But they believed, a priori, that what they were told – however they were told – was the case despite all objective evidence.

Category 2: Those who were convinced that it still had to be another, language. The Aramaic that they were genuinely "told" it was was merely the mistake, and did I know anyone who I could refer them to who knows ancient Hebrew or other languages that it *could* be, etc..

Category 3: The smallest category was made up of those who were genuinely surprised or admitted that their tongues must not be what they thought they were. Only a handful actually changed their minds.

Regardless, all samples of "Aramaic tongues" I have been subjected to (sans that one deceptive case) were asemic, usually repetitive (the same 6 or 7 syllables repeated over and over was very common) with about a dozen cases with a few common, usually improperly pronounced Aramaic and Hebrew words ("meshiak" "adonooy" "yeshoouh") peppered into them that had no meaning in context.

That's where it stands.

i can fully see how that can be as we vacillate back and forth between the spirit and the carnal mind .i can also see how some are coached into a falsehood . i can also see that none of that cancels the word of God

 

[SteveCaruso]

i can fully see how that can be as we vacillate back and forth between the spirit and the carnal mind .i can also see how some are coached into a falsehood . i can also see that none of that cancels the word of God

Out of roughly 100 cases seeking authentication, zero were genuine.

The fruits of this sort of thing speak for themselves here.

 

[Alithis]

Yes, in one point in my life I was absorbed into a Pentecostal group based on G12 theology. They made it a point to "speak in tongues" to prove that you "had the Holy Spirit". I went through all of that indoctrination, a lots of "worship" with examples of people "speaking in tongues". Fasting, praying, the whole nine yards.

And then I was lucky enough to get out of it.

So anything you can say, I've seen.

My experience with people asking for Aramaic confirmation happened after all of that, as I'm one of the few folks who for about 15 years did genuine Aramaic translations for the public.

you used the word yes but stated no ..

 

[SteveCaruso]

you used the word yes but stated no ..

Incorrect.

 

[Alithis]

Out of roughly 100 cases seeking authentication, zero were genuine.

The fruits of this sort of thing speak for themselves here.

this i do not deny .. as i said earlier //tongues is NOT a validation of what a person does or says nor evidence they are living an obedient life towards god . many who speak in tongues will sadly go on to perish . not because they speak in tongues ,but because they do not repent of sin and disobedience and think they are just fine because they ..speak in tongues. but the lord jesus never says that . he said if you love me you will keep my words .. (obedience ) and he is coming back for those who love him .. not those who speak in tongues

 

[SteveCaruso]

this i do not deny .. as i said earlier //tongues is NOT a validation of what a person does or says nor evidence they are living an obedient life towards god . many who speak in tongues will sadly god on to perish . not because they speak in tongues ,but because they do not repent of sin and disobedience and think they are just fine because they ..speak in tongues. but the lord jesus never says that . he said if you love me you will keep my words .. (obedience ) and he is coming back for those who love him .. not those who speak in tongues

This has zero to do with the validity of modern tongues.

In fact, in the context of this conversation it's moving the goalposts which are made of a red herring.

 

[Alithis]

This has zero to do with the validity of modern tongues.

In fact, in the context of this conversation it's moving the goalposts which are made of a red herring.

not really .. your saying the tongues are not a real language based only upon mans carnal minded limited comprehension of what language is .. and limiting it to language that involves sound and syllable etc .. but there is language that is far beyond such earthly comprehension . the language of the spirit .. a spirit has no mouth no tongue no voice box .. god gave himself one when he sent Jesus and communicated(manifest) to us through him . for we could not perceive his voiceless mouthless tongueless speaking ,it is perceived only by the spirit , that which is spiritual is comprehended only by the spirit .The carnal mind cannot understand it .

to say modern tongues is not genuine cannot be said simply based on a carnal reasoning (and i have not denied that there are certainly fakes ) and we do know of incidents where the tongue spoke has come forth and been fully understood by the hearer even though not the natural tongue of the speaker . but to lump it all together as fake is faithless . (red herring alert - : its like when people say they prayed for healing and nothing happend so healing in jesus name is fake . its faithless . our lack of faith in God to keep his word does not make Gods promises untrue .it makes us faithless and so unable to please him until we repent .