Do Pentecostals really speak in Languages? The Research

[Widlast]

The main reason the "gift of tongues' is so popular is that it is the only "gift of the Spirit" that can be easily faked.

 

[Postvieww]

I don't see any mention of being filled with the Spirit in that passage. Receiving/being baptized in the Spirit at conversion is a one-off event. Being filled with the Spirit is something that ought to happen repeatedly throughout a Christians life.

Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

This shows their salvation had already taken place.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied

The laying on of hands is not connected to salvation. They had already received Christ and were baptized in His name verse 5. I would submit to you being filled, having the Holy Ghost come on one , and being baptized with the Holy Ghost are one in the same experience as far as the examples in the book of Acts.


Evidence of that is:

Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence

These to whom Jesus spoke were already born again. They were told to wait to be “baptized with the Holy Ghost”.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Note the phrase “Holy Ghost is come upon you” in Acts 1:8 then in Acts 2:4 the phrase “they were all filled with the Holy Ghost” is used . This is what Jesus told them to wait for. Making a case out of filled or come upon is a distinction without a difference.


The word “power” is also of significance here.


Strong's Concordance


dunamis: (miraculous) power, might, strength


Original Word: δύναμις, εως, ἡ


Transliteration: dunamis


Short Definition: might, power, marvelous works


Definition: (a) physical power, force, might, ability, efficacy, energy, meaning (b) plur: powerful deeds, deeds showing (physical) power, marvelous works.


Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

Here is the word “upon”.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

This is the same result as in Acts 19:6. Acts 2:4 is not when the disciples were born again, they were born again before Jesus left this earth.

 

[Alithis]

If that is true then it is unbiblical

I cor 12
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many. 15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole werehearing, where were the smelling? 18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23 and those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:25 that there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. 28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

It is clear that every member of the body of christ is not an apostle, prophet, teacher, workers of miracles, healers, speak in tongues and interpret.

So, if everyone speaks in tongues, is the church only a tongue?

A fairly common non contextual reading of that text . for all those abilities are given for the equipping of the WHOLE body to do the work of the lord ..think about that ..those who have it first are to equip those who don't yet , so that ALL can have the tools they need to do the work . not al came to salvation at the same time .so those who have first, teach those who come next and they pass on what they have ,jesus did to the 12 and the 70 they did to their generation and they to theirs recurring untill came a generation who was not taught but those before them failed their calling and taught some lies .. UNbelief took hold . but praise god he is not thwarted in his plans and as i shared earlier , it still goes on to day . but it is only by belief acted upon that a person enters into the promises . by unbelief the others will perish in the desert never having known the promises .

 

[Alithis]

That's right. The tongues of today is not the tongues of the New Testament.

cant say your wrong ..in some cases it may not be - we have seen demons cast out and the person get free and then speak in tongues properly (by properly i mean the person has control of mind and will ,the spirit being subject to the prophet in that the person themselves can choose to speak out or not speak out-it is so with tongues also (some one spoke earlier of the holy Spirit taking control , but he doe not do so ..he works with us , doesn't make us robot zombies . ..and it is different -interesting . but you cant blanket statement it /.

 

[Alithis]

My mother was marginalized and left the church because of it. Although she led a saintly life she just would not b overcome with the urgency to drop and roll on the floor or utter sounds. So in tears she asked the pastor why and he told her to pray for one week. So after fervid week of silent supplications and she once again attended church full of expectations and all around her were women rolling and uttering sounds but she still, like some pariah, remained untouched. When she once more told the pastor he said that she must have some hidden sin which was obstructing the holy spirit. That accusation was unfounded and she decided that if God was rejecting her then she might as well not impose her presence and leave.

its strange how wording can cause such offense ,but it does . to say she might have some hidden sin .. should have have been worded she may have a hidden adversary -ans what i mean by that is , we have seen people seemingly unable to speak in tongues though on the verge of doing so .. we have prayed and the lord has caused an evil spirit(hiding) to manifest itself .after it is cast out .. the person then suddenly began to freely speak in tongues .. so if he used the word "Sin" and she knew of none ..it may have been best to use the word adversary.. - -interesting

 

[Postvieww]

The main reason the "gift of tongues' is so popular is that it is the only "gift of the Spirit" that can be easily faked.

I do not believe in any serious discussion of this topic anyone would deny there are fake tongues, just like there are fake apostles, prophets, pastors, Christians and miracles. Satan is a master at faking the things of God. It is my opinion far too often many throw the baby out with the bath water because they see a fake.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

 

[Widlast]

I do not believe in any serious discussion of this topic anyone would deny there are fake tongues, just like there are fake apostles, prophets, pastors, Christians and miracles. Satan is a master at faking the things of God. It is my opinion far too often many throw the baby out with the bath water because they see a fake.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

If a person can do what Peter did, that is speak in Aramaic and every listener hear what was said in his/her native tongue, then they are speaking in tongues. Otherwise it is just gibberish, which any fool can do.

 

[swordsman1]

Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

This shows their salvation had already taken place.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied

The laying on of hands is not connected to salvation. They had already received Christ and were baptized in His name verse 5. I would submit to you being filled, having the Holy Ghost come on one , and being baptized with the Holy Ghost are one in the same experience as far as the examples in the book of Acts.


Evidence of that is:

Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence

These to whom Jesus spoke were already born again. They were told to wait to be “baptized with the Holy Ghost”.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Note the phrase “Holy Ghost is come upon you” in Acts 1:8 then in Acts 2:4 the phrase “they were all filled with the Holy Ghost” is used . This is what Jesus told them to wait for. Making a case out of filled or come upon is a distinction without a difference.


The word “power” is also of significance here.


Strong's Concordance


dunamis: (miraculous) power, might, strength


Original Word: δύναμις, εως, ἡ


Transliteration: dunamis


Short Definition: might, power, marvelous works


Definition: (a) physical power, force, might, ability, efficacy, energy, meaning (b) plur: powerful deeds, deeds showing (physical) power, marvelous works.


Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

Here is the word “upon”.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

This is the same result as in Acts 19:6. Acts 2:4 is not when the disciples were born again, they were born again before Jesus left this earth.

Spirit baptism is what happens to all Christians at conversion. It is the believers initiation into the body of Christ, the universal church. It is not a subsequent event.

1 Cor 12:13 "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit."
​

If you are not baptized in the Spirit you are not part of the body of Christ. Baptism of the Spirit, giving of the Spirit, and outpouring of the Spirit are all synonymous and occur at conversion. For the disciples it was a subsequent event only because the promised Holy Spirit was not given until Pentecost. Such remarkable events in Acts were unique historical events with a special purpose, not a model for Christians today.

Filling with the Spirit, as I explained previously, is something that ought to happen repeatedly in a believers life as he yields control to the Spirit. It is nothing to do with tongues. Eph 5:18-20, the only didactic passage on being filled with the Spirit, never mentions tongues. There are numerous examples of people being filled with the Spirit and not speaking in tongues. Jesus was filled with the Spirit throughout his ministry and never spoke in tongues. So was John the Baptist. Elizabeth never spoke in tongues when she met Mary. Zechariah never spoke in tongues when he prophesied. Peter never spoke in tongues when he addressed the Sanhedrin. Stephen never spoke in tongues at his martyrdom. Paul never spoke in tongues when the scales fell from his eyes. etc.

 

[Postvieww]

If a person can do what Peter did, that is speak in Aramaic and every listener hear what was said in his/her native tongue, then they are speaking in tongues. Otherwise it is just gibberish, which any fool can do.

The Opinion on the use and validity of tongues put forth in your post is not based on the totality of scripture. You have ignored what Paul had to say on the matter.

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

 

[swordsman1]

The Opinion on the use and validity of tongue put forth in your post is not based on the totality of scripture. You have ignored what Paul had to say on the matter.

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

I see nothing there that says tongues is a non-human language. The word 'unknown' in the KJV does not appear in the original Greek.

 

[Postvieww]

Spirit baptism is what happens to all Christians at conversion. It is the believers initiation into the body of Christ, the universal church. It is not a subsequent event.

1 Cor 12:13 "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit."
​

If you are not baptized in the Spirit you are not part of the body of Christ. Baptism of the Spirit, giving of the Spirit, and outpouring of the Spirit are all synonymous and occur at conversion. For the disciples it was a subsequent event only because the promised Holy Spirit was not given until Pentecost. Such remarkable events in Acts were unique historical events with a special purpose, not a model for Christians today.

Filling with the Spirit, as I explained previously, is something that ought to happen repeatedly in a believers life as he yields control to the Spirit. It is nothing to do with tongues. Eph 5:18-20, the only didactic passage on being filled with the Spirit, never mentions tongues. There are numerous examples of people being filled with the Spirit and not speaking in tongues. Jesus was filled with the Spirit throughout his ministry and never spoke in tongues. So was John the Baptist. Elizabeth never spoke in tongues when she met Mary. Zechariah never spoke in tongues when he prophesied. Peter never spoke in tongues when he addressed the Sanhedrin. Stephen never spoke in tongues at his martyrdom. Paul never spoke in tongues when the scales fell from his eyes. etc.

Then you must explain what happened here.

John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:



I submit to you this is where the disciples were born again. There is a solid scriptural case to be made for that. I can do that in the morning, I am short on time right now, but I am interested to see how you explain it.

 

[swordsman1]

Then you must explain what happened here.

John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:



I submit to you this is where the disciples were born again. There is a solid scriptural case to be made for that. I can do that in the morning, I am short on time right now, but I am interested to see how you explain it.

Although Jesus blew on the disciples, it doesn't say they received the Holy Spirit at that point. In John 7:39 and John 16:7 Jesus specifically says the disciples would not receive the Holy Spirit while He was with them, but that He would send the Spirit only after he had departed to be with the Father. If they received the Spirit when Jesus blew on them, then Jesus was lying. No, Jesus was simply giving them a visual illustration and a future command in preparation for Pentecost.

 

[Alithis]

If a person can do what Peter did, that is speak in Aramaic and every listener hear what was said in his/her native tongue, then they are speaking in tongues. Otherwise it is just gibberish, which any fool can do.

wonder what else people can fake ...

 

[Alithis]

I see nothing there that says tongues is a non-human language. The word 'unknown' in the KJV does not appear in the original Greek.

They shall speak in "other tongues" .. and they spoke in "new" tongues .. interesting isn't it . this fully encompasses the possibility and likelihood they they will speak in languages unheard of upon the earth which the world does not and cannot know . for it cannot fathom the things of the Holy Spirit

 

[swordsman1]

They shall speak in "other tongues" .. and they spoke in "new" tongues .. interesting isn't it . this fully encompasses the possibility and likelihood they they will speak in languages unheard of upon the earth which the world does not and cannot know . for it cannot fathom the things of the Holy Spirit

Tongues "other" than their own. Tongues which were "new" to them.

 

[Widlast]

They still have to be real languages, and interpretations need to be ACCURATE.
As has been shown again and again, people that claim to be able to "speak in tongues" have a bad habit
of spouting gibberish that nobody can make any sense of. Interpretations are all over the place.

 

[Widlast]

They shall speak in "other tongues" .. and they spoke in "new" tongues .. interesting isn't it . this fully encompasses the possibility and likelihood they they will speak in languages unheard of upon the earth which the world does not and cannot know . for it cannot fathom the things of the Holy Spirit

Real languages have certain characteristics, such as consistent syntax and sentence structure. To claim that any mindless babble is an "unknown tongue" because nobody can make sense of it is absurd.

 

[LaSorcia]

hail Mary is a pointless repetition.. the same phrase over .. Since ,as you point out , no one can translate tongues ,it is impossible to say a person is repeating the same thing over and over .. it is impossible to say it is meaningless - keep it fair .

You left of the end of the verse you quoted, thereby changing its meaning: “But when you pray, don't use vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.”

It's not the repetition that is at fault, it's an attitude of the heart that thinks God is hardened to us and will only hear us if we keep at prayer long enough.

Please, no Catholic bashing. They are our sisters and brothers in Christ. Those who are saved can be found in all denominations.

 

[Alithis]

You left of the end of the verse you quoted, thereby changing its meaning: “But when you pray, don't use vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.”

It's not the repetition that is at fault, it's an attitude of the heart that thinks God is hardened to us and will only hear us if we keep at prayer long enough.

Please, no Catholic bashing. They are our sisters and brothers in Christ. Those who are saved can be found in all denominations.

this is so ridiculously missing the point and the context it was given in as a reply to another post

 

[Alithis]

Real languages have certain characteristics, such as consistent syntax and sentence structure. To claim that any mindless babble is an "unknown tongue" because nobody can make sense of it is absurd.

and the language of the holy Spirit who has no physical form being that he is "SPIRIT ' .. is his language "real" ?