Do Pentecostals really speak in Languages? The Research

[Paul Yohannan]

Now here is an interesting question to make your head hurt: is a computer filesystem like NTFS, XFS, ZFS, btrfs, ext3, HFS+ or FAT16 a language?

It seems to me that if a future in which direct interface between the minds of two humans becomes possible, assuming the data storage methodology of the brain is at least somewhat interoperable between people, the exchange of information between them would be analogous in operation to a serialized file transfer such as FTP or scp.

 

[Alithis]

I'm waiting for a single example, and I have seen countless samples and all investigated examples have been debunked -- from the very beginning with the earliest Pentecostals traveling to India and trying to speak in tongues to the natives (which didn't work because their "tongues" were none of the native languages).

A language as it is described in the Bible, requires syntax -- like the Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic of its own pages -- otherwise it is not a language.

I don't "charge God," but those who partake in asemic glossolallia need to self-examine, as it is not a Biblical practice.

yet you can never prove it is not a spiritual langues base on a carnal minded foundation.. in standing on the carnal you call the spiritual a lie ..

 

[SteveCaruso]

Now here is an interesting question to make your head hurt: is a computer filesystem like NTFS, XFS, ZFS, btrfs, ext3, HFS+ or FAT16 a language?

It seems to me that if a future in which direct interface between the minds of two humans becomes possible, assuming the data storage methodology of the brain is at least somewhat interoperable between people, the exchange of information between them would be analogous in operation to a serialized file transfer such as FTP or scp.

Hmm, no those couldn't be languages. They are structures for storing and retrieving arbitrary data and are unconcerned about the meaning of that data or "expressing" the data, simply providing it.

The big thing with how hard drives and potential data transfer with the brain works is that we're all running our own format for storing memories and context, and where it follows generalized patterns, making use of similar portions of the brain, it's not indexed like a hard drive works. It's all associative. Language is one of those curious examples of where one can interface two differently "formatted" systems via a common means of exchange. (If that makes any sense.)

 

[SteveCaruso]

yet you can never prove it is not a spiritual langues base on a carnal minded foundation.. in standing on the carnal you call the spiritual a lie ..

But, under your own rubric, you can never prove it *is* a "spiritual language" either – which would leave it at vain babbling. This entire "carnal minded" red herring is useless and has no place here, as it's the Berean test that is most appropriate – especially when it comes to new and novel teaching (such as this subject is).

If it's a language – as is conventionally understood, like the languages of the Bible – someone who speaks or reads it will recognize it, and any linguist would recognize appropriate patterns within it (even if said linguist couldn't associate semantic content to those patterns, they'd still be there).

If any utterances lack this unexceptional, common, ubiquitous stuff, it's – categorically – not a language. And thus claims that it is the "tongues" of the Bible must be rejected.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Hmm, no those couldn't be languages. They are structures for storing and retrieving arbitrary data and are unconcerned about the meaning of that data or "expressing" the data, simply providing it.

The big thing with how hard drives and potential data transfer with the brain works is that we're all running our own format for storing memories and context, and where it follows generalized patterns, making use of similar portions of the brain, it's not indexed like a hard drive works. It's all associative. Language is one of those curious examples of where one can interface two differently "formatted" systems via a common means of exchange. (If that makes any sense.)

Now, as an edge case, what about an SQL database? It facilitates random access like a filesystem, but uses a language to define and access records.

The line gets further blurred when one considers that you can format a hard disk so that Oracle or DB2 can write to it directly without an intermediate FS.

Then we have the interesting case of BFS and other indexing filesystems with attribute support which can be used as databases.

In the case of the human mind, the reason why I suspect some form of direct I/O might ultimately be possible owes to the storage and retention of sensory input. Our mind evaluates this information with language, but the raw data seems to consist of actual images, sounds, aromas, physical sensations and so on. However it is quite possible that biologically, this information is stored in unique ways which cannot be "unspooled" from the mind non-linguistically.

At any rate, with regards to speaking in tongues there is no actual semantics; it is all gibberish and auto-suggestion.

 

[Alithis]

But, under your own rubric, you can never prove it *is* a "spiritual language" either – which would leave it at vain babbling. This entire "carnal minded" red herring is useless and has no place here, as it's the Berean test that is most appropriate – especially when it comes to new and novel teaching (such as this subject is).

If it's a language – as is conventionally understood, like the languages of the Bible – someone who speaks or reads it will recognize it, and any linguist would recognize appropriate patterns within it (even if said linguist couldn't associate semantic content to those patterns, they'd still be there).

If any utterances lack this unexceptional, common, ubiquitous stuff, it's – categorically – not a language. And thus claims that it is the "tongues" of the Bible must be rejected.

never said i could prove anything ..only that i believe and act on it and receive the promise.

so you have two opposing views ..you say its not a language -and you base it on a carnal reasoning an unbelief.

I say it is a language as Just ONE of the abilities evidenced when a person is baptised in the holy Spirit (and it is accompanied by other abilities of equal importance. And i base it on Faith ..
one of these stances pleases God

 

[Righttruth]

But it's not even in unknown languages. It has no syntax or structure that every language must have. It's babble.

It is pity they attribute that to the all knowing Holy Spirit!

 

[SteveCaruso]

never said i could prove anything ..only that i believe and act on it and receive the promise.

That's incredibly wishy-washy and unhelpful.

so you have two opposing views ..you say its not a language -and you base it on a carnal reasoning an unbelief.

No, my position is based upon how the Bible actually describes the gift, and how it doesn't match up with this very young and novel practice. The Bible is now carnal?

I say it is a language as Just ONE of the abilities evidenced when a person is baptised in the holy Spirit (and it is accompanied by other abilities of equal importance. And i base it on Faith ..

Yes, you say it's a language. You are demonstrably wrong. You could call the sky green for all it matters. Which has serious implications for the rest of all that.

one of these stances pleases God

Oh bless you. That is deliciously passive-aggressive and presumptuous.

I don't even try and pretend to get into God's head like that.

 

[Alithis]

That's incredibly wishy-washy and unhelpful.



No, my position is based upon how the Bible actually describes the gift, and how it doesn't match up with this very young and novel practice. The Bible is now carnal?



Yes, you say it's a language. You are demonstrably wrong. You could call the sky green for all it matters. Which has serious implications for the rest of all that.



Oh bless you. That is deliciously passive-aggressive and presumptuous.

I don't even try and pretend to get into God's head like that.

and the result of everything you do say is to sow doubt and unbelief. you should consider that . as we will be held accountable for every word we communicate ..what language is a dream since no word is spoken no syllable sounded . you label it all by the limits of a carnal mind - yet god saw fit to speak to most throughout scripture this way (and still does ) this way .

 

[Alithis]

No, my position is based upon how the Bible actually describes the gift, and how it doesn't match up with this very young and novel practice. The Bible is now carnal?

nope .you cant comprehend it so you say it is not so .. your position is simply one of unbelief .(i have already stated acknowledgement that there can be counterfeit and fake [and have observed such ] ) -but that, in no way can be applied to all simply based upon carnal reasoning.if we apply that to the bible then we have no faith at all .

 

[SteveCaruso]

and the result of everything you do say is to sow doubt and unbelief.

nope .you cant comprehend it so you say it is not so .. your position is simply one of unbelief .(i have already stated acknowledgement that there can be counterfeit and fake [and have observed such ] ) -but that, in no way can be applied to all simply based upon carnal reasoning.if we apply that to the bible then we have no faith at all .

If what I am saying seriously opens you up to doubt and disbelief, how fragile must your faith be.

Amidst an ocean of modern "tongues" there is not a single example that passes the Berean test? Or is the Berean test carnal, too? (Or is anything that you disagree with "carnal" and from a position "of unbelief"?)

 

[Jezmeyah]

What happened in Acts was not the same with Corinthian conditions which you seem to ignore.

What you refer to is the particular event in Acts 2:5-11 when those from other countries heard the 120 from the upper room speaking in their foreign languages. In 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit as giving them utterance.
other G2087 heteros
tongues G1100 glossa
That event is precisely different than every other example in the new testament of believers speaking in unknown tongues.
In 1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

The apostle Paul here stated that when a believer speaks in unknown tongues, it is unto God for no man understands him.. in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
Here Paul did not make a comparison with what happened in Acts 2:4-11, but he said that what he personally speaks, and what believers most often speak by utterance of the Holy Spirit is not of any human language.

You are ignoring the difference of 1 Cor.14:2 and erroneously demanding that all believers speak according to Acts 2:6,8. To hear in our own language.

However, if we English speaking Christians heard 'the unknown tongues' in our own language.. then it wouldn't really be unknown would it? What does that say of the Holy Spirit of God to give English as a supernatural utterance to those who speak English?

You do see the corner that you paint yourself into by insisting that unknown tongues speaking be according to Acts 2:4-11?

Do you see how flawed your reasoning has been?, and you weren't even aware of it, perhaps until now.

People could hear them exalting God requiring no interpreter. Again this is different from mockery in Corinth.

Your use of the word 'mockery' was not used by the apostle Paul in anything that he taught them concerning the operation of speaking in unknown tongues. Therefore you have no Biblical authority to call it 'mockery'. What you are calling it is your own private interpretation, which according to Peter in 2 Pet.1:20 is not inspired of God.

All is OK excepting that 1 Cor. 12:13 is nothing to do with speaking in unknown tongue. Even Paul says all cannot speak in unknown tongue; he recommends better gifts.

1 Cor.12:13 says For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
But I think that you meant to refer 1 Cor.12:30 which is teaching of ministry gifts (vs.4) as Paul mentioned in vss.29-30 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

But, yes this involves the 1 Cor.14:2 kind of speaking in tongues for no man understands it, it is speaking in divine mysteries.
And yes. Not all believers who speak in those divine mysteries have a ministry gift. But what they speak is the kind of tongues that is the personal prayer of which there would not and should not be a need to interpret. Such as Jude speaks of in his epistle vss.20-21 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

That is it! It is his spirit, not the Holy Spirit. Notice small letter 's' for spirit.

Did you forget what you pointed out in a previous post to me what it says in 1 Cor.14:14 If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.
In the amplified Bible that verse reads, If I pray in a tongue, my spirit by the Holy Spirit within me prays.

This agrees with Acts 2:4 and what Paul said in 1 Cor.14:18 I thank God I speak in tongues more than you all. In verse 15 he says, I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with my understanding also.
So, no, what you said is not it. You have spoken of your own thinking, and not of the Holy Spirit. For even though it is his or her spirit that speaks, it is by the Holy Spirit Who gives the utterance.

The Holy Spirit directly utters through a person; no tongue is unknown to Him, so there is no question of the Holy Spirit speaking an unknown tongue through a person and asking an agent to interpret that. Such second hand sales tactics are worldly antics!

The underlined of what you have said is not according to 1 Cor.14:13-14 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. Paul gives the overall reason why in vs14, What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
And in vs13 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

In the entire book of Acts no one spoke unknown tongue. You are mixing with Corinth: one is awesome demonstration another is spurious instinct.

There is no scripture in Act or in Corinth, or the other epistles that identifies the examples of speaking in tongues as being spurious instinct. That is your own erroneous opinion.

Do parents buy gifts for their children and invite neighbourhood kid to open that for them? No way. Each child will love to open his gift package.

As a child of God you have been given a gift package which you do not open. I cannot open it for you.

Why only the Holy Spirit, many will rush out of such noisy and misbehaved congregation!

It was only the believers in Corinth who were disorderly in their assembly, but after Paul's teachings they became orderly. Therefore, you are in error to call them or any congregation who conduct orderly assemblies 'misbehaved'.

Strange and new existing tongues, not unknown tongues. You are trying to equate the two.

You are misidentifying the divine mysteries that the apostle Paul in 1 Cor.14:2 called what he and all believers receive of and by the Holy Spirit.

That is during prophesying, not during unknown tongue drama.

The apostle Paul identified prophecy to be by the ministry gift of the interpretation in a known tongue what had been spoken in unknown tongues. 1 Cor.12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues.
And 1 Cor.14:1-4 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Jesus, Paul and chosen apostles and other disciples never spoke in unknown tongue publicly. Paul might have spoke privately.

Concerning Jesus not speaking in an unknown tongue. He didn't as all believers didn't during that time because the Holy Spirit had not yet been poured out on all believers.
John 7:37-39 On the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood up and called out in a loud voice, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. To the one who believes in Me, it is just as the Scripture has said: ‘Streams of living water will flow from within him.’”He was speaking about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were later to receive. For the Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Concerning Paul speaking in an unknown tongue publically. Or, concerning those at Corinth speaking in an unknown tongue publically.. You seem to point out that Paul didn't as if it has some weight to it. But it doesn't have any weight to it.
1 Cor.14:5-6 I wish that all of you could speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified. Now brothers, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching?

Is it remembered why the apostle Paul wrote to the churches? Is it remembered that he was under house arrest and couldn't visit them personally?

Your saying that Paul never spoke in tongues publically, as if he was always attending but just never did it, is absurd.

Paul taught the believers by his epistles how to speak in an unknown tongue publically in an orderly manner. Which implies that everyone is to do as he instructed.

”Who do you follow?

The greater question is, who do you follow?

I follow Jesus who said in John 4:23-24 But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

And where it is recorded in Acts 1:4-5 And when they were gathered together, He commanded them: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift the Father promised, which you have heard Me discuss. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

Paul strongly spoke against public nuisance of speaking in unknown tongue. Please read his letter with an open mind.

Are you appealing to me to have the 'open mind' that you have? That would require me to forsake all that I have from God and think like you do. It would require me to no longer have the Holy Spirit fellowship that the apostle Paul and all disciples of Christ, and all early church believers had.

Yours is not an open mind, it's a closed mind. No thank you.

The new comers will be appalled by animal insticts so displayed!

The 'being appalled' is of your own wild imagination.
The apostle Paul wrote concerning the new comers in 1 Cor.14:23-25 as I've already quoted., such will be convicted and declare that God is among those who in orderly manner operate in the ministry gifts of the Holy Spirit. And as already quoted., the new comers will see that the assembly worships God in spirit and truth.

You admit for nearly 2000 years unknown tongue speaking had ceased. It got revived in a fermented society.

I did not admit that. You are the one who says that it ceased. I said (I speak here in more detail) that there isn't any recorded testimonials and private epistles from ordinary believers of the practice, other than those of the various church fathers who wrote of it.

My saying that, is not admitting that it ceased, and certainly not for 2000 years. I also mentioned revivals of the 19th and 20th centuries, those are within the 2000 years.

Neither did I call it a fermented society. Those are your words. But on the other hand, the reviving does involve being stirred up and made aware of the living and active God that we worship.

You are very much wrong here. People, to show off, speak in unknown tongues but there is no body to interpret in many Pentecostal churches. So what happens to what they spoke? So your claim is obviously misplaced.

You saying that someone 'shows off' by speaking in an unknown tongue.., it might as well be said that someone 'shows off' by standing before the congregation and singing. Or, it might as well be said that the preacher 'shows off' when he stands in the pulpit and preaches his sermon.

I make that comparison because the apostle Paul said that public speaking the divine mysteries of God and giving the interpretation is/are ministry gifts. Just as singing, and preaching are.

I have attended a number of Charismatic churches and gatherings where the operation of the gifts of the Spirit are allowed to function. It's very much like 1 Cor.14:6 Now brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching?
And John 4:23-24, worshiping in the spirit according to I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind. I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind.

Concerning your claim that many Charismatic churches give no interpretation when an unknown tongues is spoken. Do you remember what you wrote in this post?

"there is no question of the Holy Spirit speaking an unknown tongue through a person and asking an agent to interpret that. Such second hand sales tactics are worldly antics!"

You apparently want it both ways. That's it's not right if a tongue goes uninterpreted. And it's also not right if it is interpreted.

 

[Alithis]

If what I am saying seriously opens you up to doubt and disbelief, how fragile must your faith be.

Amidst an ocean of modern "tongues" there is not a single example that passes the Berean test? Or is the Berean test carnal, too? (Or is anything that you disagree with "carnal" and from a position "of unbelief"?)

searching the scripture to see if these things are so..is the berean test ..your not applying that .your applying carnal understanding to what you cant comprehend ..its similar to saying god does not exist because you cant box him into your language system .

 

[Grafted In]

These to whom Jesus spoke were already born again. They were told to wait to be “baptized with the Holy Ghost”

Are you sure there were born again Christians prior to Pentacost ?

 

[Postvieww]

Are you sure there were born again Christians prior to Pentacost ?

I gave my reasoning from scripture in post #79 & #80. What is your scriptural evidence it is not so?

 

[Righttruth]

What you refer to is the particular event in Acts 2:5-11 when those from other countries heard the 120 from the upper room speaking in their foreign languages. In 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit as giving them utterance.
other G2087 heteros
tongues G1100 glossa
That event is precisely different than every other example in the new testament of believers speaking in unknown tongues.

That precisely is my point. The Holy Spirit gave utterance in all the contexts recorded in Acts. That is why no interpreter was required. It was not the case in Corinthian church where emotional people spoke with their spirits. Show me in Paul's letters where people spoke unknown tongue prompted directly by the Holy Spirit

In 1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

I am not bothered with what one speaks to God privately with or without distortion of the body and doing acrobatics.

Here Paul did not make a comparison with what happened in Acts 2:4-11, but he said that what he personally speaks, and what believers most often speak by utterance of the Holy Spirit is not of any human language.

Where does Paul says that the unknown tongue through the utterance of the Holy Spirit? What is unknown to the Holy Spirit? That is your claim against the claim of Paul

You are ignoring the difference of 1 Cor.14:2 and erroneously demanding that all believers speak according to Acts 2:6,8. To hear in our own language.

I am not demanding anything. I am only pointing out your grave error in far fetched claim and equating the two.

However, if we English speaking Christians heard 'the unknown tongues' in our own language.. then it wouldn't really be unknown would it? What does that say of the Holy Spirit of God to give English as a supernatural utterance to those who speak English?

That is the wisdom of man, not the work of the Holy Spirit. Unknown tongue and making animal sounds are by and large is a downgrading stuff!

You do see the corner that you paint yourself into by insisting that unknown tongues speaking be according to Acts 2:4-11?

What I am emphasizing is that the Holy Spirit is involved there, not in Corinthian imitation.

Do you see how flawed your reasoning has been?, and you weren't even aware of it, perhaps until now.
Your use of the word 'mockery' was not used by the apostle Paul in anything that he taught them concerning the operation of speaking in unknown tongues. Therefore you have no Biblical authority to call it 'mockery'. What you are calling it is your own private interpretation, which according to Peter in 2 Pet.1:20 is not inspired of God.

You see the word 'unknown' is not found in Greek texts. Are you going to reject it? In fact, I am adhering to Peter's verse by showing the pitfall in Pentecostal theology.

1 Cor.12:13 says For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

There is no picture of tongue speaking here.

Such as Jude speaks of in his epistle vss.20-21 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Praying in the Holy Ghost means taking the help of Him in praying, not speaking unknown tongue!

Did you forget what you pointed out in a previous post to me what it says in 1 Cor.14:14 If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.
In the amplified Bible that verse reads, If I pray in a tongue, my spirit by the Holy Spirit within me prays.

That is how biased traslations lead us astray. The Greek text doesn't mention anything about the Holy Spirit.

This agrees with Acts 2:4 and what Paul said in 1 Cor.14:18 I thank God I speak in tongues more than you all. In verse 15 he says, I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with my understanding also.

No problem for me when in private.

The underlined of what you have said is not according to 1 Cor.14:13-14 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. Paul gives the overall reason why in vs14, What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

All with his personal spirit.

And in vs13 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? There is no scripture in Act or in Corinth, or the other epistles that identifies the examples of speaking in tongues as being spurious instinct. That is your own erroneous opinion.

It may be genuine emotional outbursts, mocking to claim spirituality, etc., but not in anyway related to the Holy Spirit.

As a child of God you have been given a gift package which you do not open. I cannot open it for you.

No one hesitates to open a gift to look at the surprise item inside. He will not look at his neighbour to do that unless he happens to be physically unfit or of unbalanced mind.

It was only the believers in Corinth who were disorderly in their assembly, but after Paul's teachings they became orderly.

All kinds of people were there. Mostly immature people trying to draw attention to themselves.

Therefore, you are in error to call them or any congregation who conduct orderly assemblies 'misbehaved'.
You are misidentifying the divine mysteries that the apostle Paul in 1 Cor.14:2 called what he and all believers receive of and by the Holy Spirit.

Holy Spirit will not prompt people to roll over, make animal sounds and do acrobatics to prove their spirituality.

The apostle Paul identified prophecy to be by the ministry gift of the interpretation in a known tongue what had been spoken in unknown tongues. 1 Cor.12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues.

Please read the verse again. It is divers (different) not unknown

And 1 Cor.14:1-4 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Gift is for common good. Edifying oneself is selfishness.

Concerning Jesus not speaking in an unknown tongue. He didn't as all believers didn't during that time because the Holy Spirit had not yet been poured out on all believers.

Did they speak in unknown tongue after the Spirit fell upon them? No.

Concerning Paul speaking in an unknown tongue publically. Or, concerning those at Corinth speaking in an unknown tongue publically.. You seem to point out that Paul didn't as if it has some weight to it. But it doesn't have any weight to it.
1 Cor.14:5-6 I wish that all of you could speak in tongues,

Paul is not speaking of unknown tongue here. Please read the verse again.

Your saying that Paul never spoke in tongues publically, as if he was always attending but just never did it, is absurd.

Read 1 Corinthians fully. He was dead against speaking in unknown tongue publicly.

I follow Jesus who said in John 4:23-24 But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

Right. No unknown tongue problem here.

And where it is recorded in Acts 1:4-5 And when they were gathered together, He commanded them: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift the Father promised, which you have heard Me discuss. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
Are you appealing to me to have the 'open mind' that you have? That would require me to forsake all that I have from God and think like you do. It would require me to no longer have the Holy Spirit fellowship that the apostle Paul and all disciples of Christ, and all early church believers had.

All of them had fellowship of the Holy Spirit without speaking in unknown tongue in public

Yours is not an open mind, it's a closed mind. No thank you.
The 'being appalled' is of your own wild imagination.
The apostle Paul wrote concerning the new comers in 1 Cor.14:23-25 as I've already quoted., such will be convicted and declare that God is among those who in orderly manner operate in the ministry gifts of the Holy Spirit. And as already quoted., the new comers will see that the assembly worships God in spirit and truth.

Not when they see people rolling all over the floor, jumping up and down, making animal sounds, doing yoga postures, etc.

I did not admit that. You are the one who says that it ceased. I said (I speak here in more detail) that there isn't any recorded testimonials and private epistles from ordinary believers of the practice, other than those of the various church fathers who wrote of it.

Pentecostal people boast of a revival of Corinthian scene. It means it had ceased earlier for centuries.

I make that comparison because the apostle Paul said that public speaking the divine mysteries of God and giving the interpretation is/are ministry gifts. Just as singing, and preaching are.

He pronounced order and advised better gifts.

And John 4:23-24, worshiping in the spirit according to I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind. I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind.

That is your spirit, not the Holy Spirit.

You apparently want it both ways. That's it's not right if a tongue goes uninterpreted. And it's also not right if it is interpreted.

Obviously the word of God goes waste when not interpreted. It should not happen. It is also so when different interpretations are forthcoming for the same unknown tongue!

 

[Postvieww]

The word “unknown” in 1 Corinthians 14 is of no consequence, it is not in the original text, it is only added by the translators.

 

[Postvieww]

Mark 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

Mary believed God had raised Him from the dead. She was the first to believe.

11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.

At this point the Disciples did not believe God had raised Jesus from the dead.

12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

If they did not believe they could not have been born again at that point.

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

Their belief in the fact God had raised Him from the dead is obviously crucial here or why would Jesus upbraid them?

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Did He say he who waits for the promise to receive power would be saved ? No he said that he that believeth would be saved.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

How do the sceptics and nay sayers explain this passage?

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

All of these signs but 1 are written in the book of Acts.

19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

I am convinced that many have been taught salvation (the born again experience) began at Pentecost and have not even considered the possibility that for some it came before then. Nothing in scripture clearly says that salvation began at that point. For those that believe there is an experience with the Holy Spirit after salvation why is it so hard to believe the disciples were born again before Pentecost?


The book of Acts has much evidence that the receiving, being filled, the Holy Spirit coming upon or being baptized with the Holy Ghost is subsequent to salvation

 

[Alithis]

Mark 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

Mary believed God had raised Him from the dead. She was the first to believe.

11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.

At this point the Disciples did not believe God had raised Jesus from the dead.

12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

If they did not believe they could not have been born again at that point.

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

Their belief in the fact God had raised Him from the dead is obviously crucial here or why would Jesus upbraid them?

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Did He say he who waits for the promise to receive power would be saved ? No he said that he that believeth would be saved.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

How do the sceptics and nay sayers explain this passage?

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

All of these signs but 1 are written in the book of Acts.

19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

I am convinced that many have been taught salvation (the born again experience) began at Pentecost and have not even considered the possibility that for some it came before then. Nothing in scripture clearly says that salvation began at that point. For those that believe there is an experience with the Holy Spirit after salvation why is it so hard to believe the disciples were born again before Pentecost?


The book of Acts has much evidence that the receiving, being filled, the Holy Spirit coming upon or being baptized with the Holy Ghost is subsequent to salvation

Salvation is grasped by faith in whole and journeyed upon as a process ..jesus said my sheep hear my voice (as in do not close their ears and ignore him ) and i know them and they follow me . .. thus the genuine disciple who is a student learning to become like his master Jesus .. will go forward into everything Jesus went into and did . so from the baptism in water to the baptism of the Holy Spirit we go (not always on that order but to refuse any part of it is to remain an enemy of God by willful disobedience .) that it is written those that believe (and prove they do by acting as if what they believe is true (ie have AND exercise FAITH) will have these signs that shall follow them ..they shall heal the sick they will drive our devils they will speak in other tongues . should not be made all about tongues because tongues without the other outworking of the spirit within is very unbalanced .
i'm pretty confident in saying that people who oppose "tongues ' all the time ,Do not lead any one else to salvation healing or deliverance .. they are not only imbalanced ..they do not even have the Spirit of Christ Jesus in them .

 

[swordsman1]

The book of Acts has much evidence that the receiving, being filled, the Holy Spirit coming upon or being baptized with the Holy Ghost is subsequent to salvation

Paul's teaching subsequent to those unique historical events of Acts says otherwise:

Rom 8:9 And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.​

If you have not received the Spirit you are not a Christian.

1 Cor 12:13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.​

All believers are Spirit baptized so as to form the body of Christ (from the moment of salvation). If you are not baptized in the Spirit you are not part of the body of Christ.