Do Non-believers go to Hell 2

[Martinez]

I know there were a few people whos still wanted to have their say, but it's a bit difficult on a locked thread, so here's a branspanka!


So the question still remains.

Do Non-believers go to Hell?

 

[Soul Searcher]

Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Ecc 12:8 Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.

 

[KCDAD]

No, not in the way you mean.

 

[Martinez]

No, not in the way you mean.

I'm not sure I know what you mean.

 

[ForsakeAll2FollowJesus]

Do Non-believers go to Hell?

thanks to eoe:

Let me show you a different view of hell.

Our God is a consuming fire. Why do I say that?

(Hebrews 12:29) For our God is a consuming fire.

God is infinite energy and he dwells in unapprochable light. In the end he will spread his light over everyone. Just as the rain falls on the good and the wicked his love will bathe the universe in his loving energy.

If we reject his grace we will have no protection from it. It would be as a searing heat to those who reject his love.

(Romans 12:19) Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

(Romans 12:20) Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

(Romans 12:21) Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.


If our love given to an enemy is like heaping coals of fire on his head then what do you imagine the uncreated energy of God will do to them that are not clothed in his grace? He will overcome evil with goodness and that goodness will be unbearable to those who have rejected it.


Read what the early church fathers said about hell.


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]St Isaac of Syria[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I also maintain that those who are punished in Gehenna, are scourged by the scourge of love. Nay, what is so bitter and vehement as the torment of love? ...It would be improper for a man to think that sinners in Gehenna are deprived of the love of God... The power of love works in two ways: it torments sinners... Thus I say that this is the torment of Gehenna: bitter regret. But love inebriates the souls of the sons of Heaven by its delectability. [/FONT]


God divides the fire - protection and illuminaton:

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]St Basil the Great[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]'The voice of the Lord divides the flame of fire.' [David] says that this miracle happened to the Three Children in the fiery furnace. The fire in this case was divided into two, so that while it was burning those outside it, it was cooling the Children, as if they were under the shadow of a tree. In what follows he observes that the fire which had been prepared by God for the devil and his angels 'is cut by the voice of the Lord.' Fire has two properties, the caustic and illuminating energies, and that is why it burns and sheds light. Thus those worthy of the fire will feel its caustic quality and those worthy of the lighting will feel the illuminating property of the fire. Therefore he finishes very expressively: 'the voice of the Lord divides the flames of fire' and in the dividing, the fire of hell is without light, and the light of peace remains unburnt. (On Psalm 28, PG 29:297A)[/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]St John Climacus[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]It is one thing frequently to keep watch over the heart, and another to supervise the heart by means of the mind, that ruler and high-priest that offers spiritual sacrifices to Christ. When the holy and super-celestial fire comes to dwell in the souls of the former, as says one of those who have received the title of Theologian, it burns them because they still lack purification, whereas it enlightens the latter according to the degree of their perfection. For one and the same fire is called both the fire which consumes and the light which illuminates." (The Ladder of Divine Ascent, Step 28:51)[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]St Theophan the Recluse[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The righteous will go into eternal life, but the satanized sinners into eternal torments, in communion with demons. Will these torments end? If satanism and becoming like satan should end, then the torments also can end...there is no hope either for men who become satanized by his influence [to change]. (quoted in Father Michael Pomazansky, Orthodox Dogmatic Theology, page 351)[/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]St Isaac of Syria[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Sin, Gehenna, and Death do not exist at all with God, for they are effects, not substances. Sin is the fruit of free will. There was a time when sin did not exist, and there will be a time when it will not exist. Gehenna is the fruit of sin... (Ascetical Homilies 27, Page 133)[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]St Isaac of Syria[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]This is the aim of Love. Love's chastisement is for correction, but it does not aim at retribution...But the man who considers God an avenger, presuming that he bears witness to His justice, the same accuses Him of being bereft of goodness. Far be it, that vengeance could ever be found in that Fountain of love and Ocean brimming with goodness! The aim of His design is the correction of men." (Ascetical Homilies 48, Page 230)[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]St Isaac of Syria[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Do not call God just, for His justice is not manifest in the things concerning you. And if David calls Him just and upright, His Son revealed to us that He is good and kind. 'He is good', He says 'to the evil and to the impious.' How can you call God just when you come across the Scriptural passage on the wage given to the workers?...How can a man call God just when he comes across the passage on the prodigal son who wasted his wealth with riotous living, how for the compunction alone which he showed, the father ran and fell upon his neck and gave him authority over all his wealth?...Where, then, is God's justice, for while we are sinners Christ died for us!" (Ascetical Homilies 51, Page 251)[/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Vladimir Lossky on St Symeon the new Theologian[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]For according to St. Symeon, there are two judgments: one, in this life, the judgment to salvation; the other, after the end of the world, the judgment to condemnation 'In this present life, when by repentance, we enter freely and of our own will into the divine light, we find ourselves accused and under judgment; but, owing to the divine love and compassion the accusation and judgment is made in secret, in the depths of our soul, to purify us, that we may receive the pardon of our sins. It is only God and ourselves who at that time will see the hidden depths of our hearts. Those who in this life undergo such a judgment will have nothing to fear from another tribunal. But for those who will not, in this life, enter into the light, that they may be accused and judged, for those who hate the light, the second coming of Christ will disclose the light which at present remains hidden, and will make manifest everything which has been concealed. Everything which today we hide, not wishing to reveal the depths of our hearts in repentance, will then be made open in the light, before the face of God; and the whole world, and what we really are will be made plain.' At the second coming of Christ, all will be made fully conscious, in the power of the divine light. But this consciousness will not be one which opens up freely in grace, according to the divine will; it will be a consciousness coming, so to speak, from outside, and developing in persons against their will, a light being united to beings extraneously, that is to say, 'outside grace,' as St. Maximus has it. The love of God will be an intolerable torment for those who have not acquired it within themselves...The resurrection itself will reveal the inner condition of beings, as bodies will allow the secrets of the soul to shine through." (Vladimir Lossky, The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church, Pages 233-234)[/FONT]


Finally - if you want to understand hell. If you want to see how someone can go into hell and it be THEIR fault and NOT God's. Read about the River of Fire.

If we deny God, don't want to be in fellowship with Him here in this world, don't care to have a relationship with Him, follow his laws and most importantly accept his gift, we are effectively saying we want no part of Him! If we don't want any part of Him now, why would we want to spend eternity with Him? Looking at it from that perspective, it's easy to see why some people will end up in hell. It was a choice they made.

 

[ForsakeAll2FollowJesus]

Do Non-believers go to Hell?

Quote

Originally Posted by: eoe

( Here are two concepts that you must understand.

• Heaven is not given to anyone because they deserve it.
• Hell is given to everyone because they deserve it.

You deserve to go to hell. So do I. Every person here does. Gandhi, Mother Theresa and Martin Luther King all deserve eternal death.

We have all revolted. We have all been proud. We have all committed the same sin that got Satan thrown out of heaven. All of us.

People do not get into heaven because they are worthy.)


Thanks to Chris Norwood:

I think this quote is by far the most important thing that has been posted here so far. No matter what Hell actually is, the point is that Hell is what all of us (as in absolutely every human every born except Jesus) deserve. No amount of punishment or time spent away from God is enough to remove our sin. This is not a sign that God is some sadist or anything, it is just the natural consequence of our lifelong rebellion against God. God cannot tolerate evil by His very nature, not by some choice He makes. He is absolute justice, and He cannot just ignore the consequences of sin.

On the other hand, He is also absolute love, so He was also compelled by His nature to find some way to reestablish a loving relationship with us. That way was to sacrifice His own son in our place. Jesus became our sin and suffered the death that we all should have had. All we have to do to receive this grace is to accept what Jesus has done and give Him control of our lives.

God's love was expressed on the cross, and that love cost Him greatly. To think that He would just let people out of their punishment, to essentially "get away with" their sin, would be in direct conflict with His very nature. To believe so is an insult to the costly love that Jesus gave to us through his pain, suffering, and death on the cross. Jesus is the only way back to God, not even any amount of our own suffering can earn that salvation.

 

[ForsakeAll2FollowJesus]

More great replies thanks to eoe:

You are fishing with a friend. Your friend can not swim. He voluntarily jumps into the water and starts to drown. You throw him a life preserver. He refuses to grab the life preserver stating that it is not a life preserver and that he does not need it even if it is one. He drowns. Is it your fault?

Two firefighters arrive at the scene of a fire. As they are about to enter the burning building one casts off his protective equipment. The other warns him to put the equipment back on. The man refuses, runs into the fire and dies.
Whose fault is that?

Our God is a consuming fire. If you want to exist happily in his presence then you need protective equipment. That protective equipment is grace. If you refuse the grace then you throw off the protective equpiment. How is that God's fault?

God is not going to cease being God. He is not going to throw off his glory. God is light and in him there is no darkness at all. What joy can there be for one who loves darkness in the presence of God? What peace will there be for one who loves coldness in the consuming fire that is God?

Mankind fell. We fell through a concious decisoin to go against God. The result of pulling ourselves away from the source of life is death. It is a natural result of the action just like pulling the cord oout of the electrical socet will cause a lamp to go dark.
This is not God's system. it is the opposite of God's system. The system that God set up was perfect and Mankind was immortal. It was when mankind pulled away from the source of life that death entered the system.

Death is not a punishment from God. Death is a natural result of man removing himself from the source of life.

 

[Martinez]

Forsake, You've obviously put alot of time into you post, but I regret to inform you that that theory just doesn't hold any water.

I've heard it before, and it does have some major issues that need addressing, for example:

to say that God's love would destroy those who reject Him here and now is to misunderstand just what the love of God is,

It's Him!, it's God!

God is spirit, and the Spirit brings life, the Spirit is life!

When Jesus was going about His earthly mission, He radiated that same life giving energy. people dropped everything to follow Him, to listen to Him. they walked for days to hear Him preach.
no good rotten tax collectors climbed trees to get a glimpse at Him. prostitutes poured expensive perfumes on His feet and wiped his feet with their hair. fisherman dropped their nets and followed Him, forsaking their lively hoods to follow and learn from Him. sick people mearly touched the hem of His garments and were healed.

And those who He called to be His disciples would become so zealous for Him, that they were no longer afraid of being crucified, the most fearful death of the day!

You can't possibly believe that this is the same energy that will eventually destroy some of his children?

Even Judas needed special help to be able to betray Jesus!

 

[Soul Searcher]

You deserve to go to hell. So do I. Every person here does. Gandhi, Mother Theresa and Martin Luther King all deserve eternal death.

If we all deserve to go to hell would that not make God an unjust God if even one is spared?

Is God an unjust God?

 

[Cleany]

Our God is a consuming fire. If you want to exist happily in his presence then you need protective equipment. That protective equipment is grace. If you refuse the grace then you throw off the protective equpiment. How is that God's fault?

im sorry but i disagree. from what i have personally experienced of god by the holy spirit, and from the testimony of many, many people, including my friends, god just isnt like that at all.

a belief in what is commonly known as hell relies heavily on a certain view of scripture. because a lot of the bible language is like this, with pictures of god as being a "consuming fire" for example, an attitude to scripture as being "holy" generally leads people to believe that statements such as "god is a consuming fire" are factually correct. but of course god isnt a consuming fire and everyone knows it.

the doctrine of original sin derives from believing that the genesis story of creation is factually true. when you see that it is an attempt (a very good attempt) to describe the human plight in the light of god then you are free from such doctrines, free from believing that we deserve punishment, and that sin is necessarily a real force. (gulp!)

many people are impotent to defend themselves from the combination of a sacred view of scripture and the differences in language and culture between us and the writers of scripture. we are left with a theology that is a mix up of the biblical culture of different times, and the surrounding cultures of biblical times. not only that, but certain beliefs are like a house of cards, it is only possible for it to stand if all the elements are there, that is why people say "if you dont literally believe one part of the bible, then you cant believe any of it".

the best thing we can say is that there is life after literalist biblical theology. there are more important things than our interpretation of the bible, our relationships with other christians for example, and god knows our hearts.

if there are very good reasons to believe that there is no hell (and there are very, very good reasons) then lets investigate those reasons - what have we to fear?

 

[KCDAD]

I'm not sure I know what you mean.

It is getting boring repeating this over and over...
Hell= Sheol, Hades, Tartarus
Sheol= grave
Hades= Greek god of the underworld... in this mythology "hell" is where everyone goes after death... good, bad, and ugly. It is the land of forgetfulness.
Tartarus= ? Someone help me out here...

There is no firey pit called "hell". It is an invention by poets to describe in metaphor the misery and despair we suffer when we are apart from God. See Blake, Milton, Dante.

Gehenna is The Valley of Hinnom. It was a pagan sacrificial site just south of Jerusalem. It later became a "city dump" for the Jews. There they got rid of all their unwanted trash, waste and dead that didn't deserve proper Jewish burial. It is used in Jewish culture as a metaphor much like we use the Boogie Man or might say "if you lie you will go to hell". They would say "if you don't behave you will get thrown out like the trash into the valley of Hinnom. "
OK. Now we know there is no firey pit of hell in any Jewish or early Christian thinking... what does that leave us but with parable and metaphor.

The lake of fire is a metaphor of cleansing, preparing one to enter the presence of God just like the Levitical piests had to baptize themselves in order to enter the Holy of Holies. Joh the Baptizer symbolically washed everyone who wished this same priviledge in the river Jordan. The lake of fire is a spiritual cleanising initiated by the Holy Spirit.

What would you care if you were burned by real fire after you were dead, anyway?

Is that clear enough?

 

[Martinez]

More great replies thanks to
Two firefighters arrive at the scene of a fire. As they are about to enter the burning building one casts off his protective equipment. The other warns him to put the equipment back on. The man refuses, runs into the fire and dies.
Whose fault is that?

Our God is a consuming fire. If you want to exist happily in his presence then you need protective equipment. That protective equipment is grace. If you refuse the grace then you throw off the protective equpiment. How is that God's fault?

Dude!

Do you worship a volcano god?

 

[Martinez]

It is getting boring repeating this over and over...
Hell= Sheol, Hades, Tartarus
Sheol= grave
Hades= Greek god of the underworld... in this mythology "hell" is where everyone goes after death... good, bad, and ugly. It is the land of forgetfulness.
Tartarus= ? Someone help me out here...

There is no firey pit called "hell". It is an invention by poets to describe in metaphor the misery and despair we suffer when we are apart from God. See Blake, Milton, Dante.

Gehenna is The Valley of Hinnom. It was a pagan sacrificial site just south of Jerusalem. It later became a "city dump" for the Jews. There they got rid of all their unwanted trash, waste and dead that didn't deserve proper Jewish burial. It is used in Jewish culture as a metaphor much like we use the Boogie Man or might say "if you lie you will go to hell". They would say "if you don't behave you will get thrown out like the trash into the valley of Hinnom. "
OK. Now we know there is no firey pit of hell in any Jewish or early Christian thinking... what does that leave us but with parable and metaphor.

The lake of fire is a metaphor of cleansing, preparing one to enter the presence of God just like the Levitical piests had to baptize themselves in order to enter the Holy of Holies. Joh the Baptizer symbolically washed everyone who wished this same priviledge in the river Jordan. The lake of fire is a spiritual cleanising initiated by the Holy Spirit.

What would you care if you were burned by real fire after you were dead, anyway?

Is that clear enough?

Oh sorry Man, now I know what your talking about!

your sick of banging your head against a brick wall.

don't worry, you get use to it after a while!

 

[ForsakeAll2FollowJesus]

Dude!

Do you worship a volcano god?

(Hebrews 12:29) For our God is a consuming fire.

 

[ForsakeAll2FollowJesus]

You can't possibly believe that this is the same energy that will eventually destroy some of his children?

No, I don't - we are only God's children if we are born again - born into the family of God by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Alone.

God promises eternal salvation to His children.

People who reject His One and Only Way of Salvation have chosen for themselves not to be His children.

 

[ForsakeAll2FollowJesus]

If we all deserve to go to hell would that not make God an unjust God if even one is spared?

Is God an unjust God?

You understand!!!!!

We all deserve hell, but God loved us so much He didn't want us to go there.
So He made a JUST way for us to be saved.
The penalty of sin is death. A death had to occur to pay for our sins. Only Jesus (as eternal God living a perfect life) death could pay the eternal penalty for all of us.
He sacrificed His Son, His Son took our place, Jesus died the death that we deserve, Jesus died the death that was meant for us.
It is like if you got a speeding ticket, and owe $250. Say the judge says "I'll pay that for you". Your penalty is paid, the judge is just!
Our penalty is paid by the judge - our Judge is just!

 

[PastorMikeJ]

sighhh yes of course nonbelievers go to hell...Jesus is the only way to the Father...who is in heaven...but if you want to continue to believe that you can choose not to follow God then I guess your choice is hell...nobody's fault but yours...

This is getting so boring...I guess you put out a thread enough times you will get what you want...but it is still the same...NO!!!! NONBELIEVERS GO TO HELL!!!!

 

[Soul Searcher]

You understand!!!!!

We all deserve hell, but God loved us so much He didn't want us to go there.
So He made a JUST way for us to be saved.
The penalty of sin is death. A death had to occur to pay for our sins. Only Jesus (as eternal God living a perfect life) death could pay the eternal penalty for all of us.
He sacrificed His Son, His Son took our place, Jesus died the death that we deserve, Jesus died the death that was meant for us.
It is like if you got a speeding ticket, and owe $250. Say the judge says "I'll pay that for you". Your penalty is paid, the judge is just!
Our penalty is paid by the judge - our Judge is just!

Ok I am confused, sounds like you are saying that the penalty for sin is death but yet it seems that you are in support of hell (the eternal torment kind I suppose) Makes no sense.

If the penalty for sin is death and we die then is not the debt paid in full, why hell for non believers?

 

[Martinez]

Ok I am confused, sounds like you are saying that the penalty for sin is death but yet it seems that you are in support of hell (the eternal torment kind I suppose) Makes no sense.

If the penalty for sin is death and we die then is not the debt paid in full, why hell for non believers?

I know the answer to this one!


The penalty for sin was death, but then God sent Jesus to die on the cross in our place, but because God had to send His Son to die to give us eternal life, the stakes had to change, because obviously the opposite of eternal life is eteral life in extreme agony!, and also the wages of sin is death, but the wages of rejecting the saviour is everlasting Hell, so the latter condition is actually worse than the former because Jesus came.
plus now God is really super angry with anyone who dosen't accept Jesus, because He has provided a way out!

Pheww!

talk about the good news of the gospel!

 

[flautist]

God created us all, not just his followers. We are his creation, and therefore we are His children.

If you had a child whom you loved very much, but they decided to run away, would you just say, "oh, well, they chose to run away, so they aren't my child anymore."? Of course not! You would still love them as your child and do everything you could to bring them back to you.

Now, let's say you find them before they even think of coming back to you. Are you going to turn them away to whatever is in store for them? Of course not! You would welcome them with open arms simply because you love them so much! You would talk to them and try to make them understand how much you love them and want them to be with you.

Now, if we imperfect humans love our children enough to do this, then how much more would our God do for HIS creation?

No, I don't - we are only God's children if we are born again - born into the family of God by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Alone.

God promises eternal salvation to His children.

People who reject His One and Only Way of Salvation have chosen for themselves not to be His children.