Do Non-believers go to Hell 2

[Mailman Dan]

Your belief in a translation of the bible that is faulty in it's translation of the word "aionion"

Age during, the word also used to describe God, and the time life will be with God. Here is some scripture you can use to test your theory of the word "everlasting" vs. Aionion (age during).

Psalm 106:48
Praise be to the LORD, the God of Israel, from everlasting to everlasting. Let all the people say, "Amen!" Praise the LORD.

Psalm 119:142
Your righteousness is everlasting and your law is true.

Psalm 103:17
But from everlasting to everlasting the LORD's love is with those who fear him, and his righteousness with their children's children-

Now look at this context, and tell me whats wrong with your theory...

Daniel 12:2
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.


Dan~~~>hopes you can see your error of belief

 

[Martinez]

Psalm 2:11
Serve the LORD with fear and rejoice with trembling.

Psalm 15:4
who despises a vile man but honors those who fear the LORD, who keeps his oath even when it hurts,

Psalm 34:9
Fear the LORD, you his saints, for those who fear him lack nothing.

Proverbs 19:23
The fear of the LORD leads to life: Then one rests content, untouched by trouble.

Ecclesiastes 8:13
Yet because the wicked do not fear God, it will not go well with them, and their days will not lengthen like a shadow.

Luke 12:5
But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

Proverbs 16:6
By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.

Fear, when placed rightfully in the One who will Judge, is useful fear. I tell my kids not to play on the freeway..why?...because its useful advice that if ignored will lead to death...

But let me guess....do you think "fear" in the bible means something else besides fear?

Dan~~~>not sure how you disreguard that much scripture as well...(and the other 300 text I didn't even post)

1Jo 4:18 Love has in it no element of fear; but perfect love drives away fear, because fear involves pain, and if a man gives way to fear, there is something imperfect in his love.
1Jo 4:19 We love because God first loved us.
1Jo 4:20 If any one says that he loves God, while he hates his brother man, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother man whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.
1Jo 4:21 And the command which we have from Him is that he who loves God must love his brother man also.

Now either the Bible contradicts itself, or you have no idea what your talking about!

I pick the latter option!

You know Dan,

It seems to me that everyone has done their homework as to what they believe except you.

now I might not agree on what everyone in LT says they believe, but at least they've made someone sort of informed decisions based on research they have done, but the only conclusion I can come to, given the color of your posts, is that you have not done any homework at all!

you go around spouting scripture like you know what it means, but you couldn't possibly, because you constantly contradict other scripture with it!

The word of God is a sharp two edged sword, not your own personal little flick knife!

At least get some new moves will ya!

 

[stumpjumper]

Luke 12:5
But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

Is it your goal to show me that there are contradictions in the Bible?

Again:

Romans 8
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God!

I accept that the Bible contains errors but you are the fundamentalist so how do you reconcile your Luke quote with Romans?

 

[Soul Searcher]

The problem seems to be the perceived meaning of fear especially in the pharse fear of God.

Some of these posts would instill fear as in terror.

Do any here really think that we should be terrified of God? After all, how could you love something that scares the pants off you?

In addition to other verses already posted cosider this.

Pro 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogance, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

yir'âh
BDB Definition:
1) fear, terror, fearing
1a) fear, terror
1b) awesome or terrifying thing (object causing fear)
1c) fear (of God), respect, reverence, piety
1d) revered

Notice the meaning specifically applied to the fear of God and the way it is described in the proverb.

I fear God in the biblical sense but I am not afraid neither for myself nor for my neighbor.

Could one assume that if perfect love casts out fear [terror] that perfect fear[terror] would cast out love?

Could one also assume that reverence would usher in love?

 

[KCDAD]

I wonder how much joy one who cares about others can experience while believing his/her neighbor is tortured for eternity in hellfire

Who thinks about others when "all is okie dokie" with me? ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME

This dear Soul Searcher is a wonderful observation you brought up! I would slap some rep on you but I "have to spread some around" first

 

[KCDAD]

Is it your goal to show me that there are contradictions in the Bible?

Again:

Romans 8
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God!

I accept that the Bible contains errors but you are the fundamentalist so how do you reconcile your Luke quote with Romans?

Which ever was written first... er no I mean, which ever was written later to correct the previous... er no I mean... ahhhh.... ya got em! [I wudda repped ya for this buit I gotta "spread it around" first.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Age during, the word also used to describe God, and the time life will be with God. Here is some scripture you can use to test your theory of the word "everlasting" vs. Aionion (age during).

Psalm 106:48
Praise be to the LORD, the God of Israel, from everlasting to everlasting. Let all the people say, "Amen!" Praise the LORD.

Psalm 119:142
Your righteousness is everlasting and your law is true.

Psalm 103:17
But from everlasting to everlasting the LORD's love is with those who fear him, and his righteousness with their children's children-

Now look at this context, and tell me whats wrong with your theory...

Daniel 12:2
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.


Dan~~~>hopes you can see your error of belief

hmm doesn't the phrase from everlasting to everlasting seem a little strange to you? Do you not think that perhaps you should at least consider that this might be an incorrect translation?

 

[katallasso]

Well....I went searching on the Daniel 12:2 situation and I found this. Thought it was worth sharing.

"The Hebrew word olam, which is translated as “everlasting” in Daniel. Olam does not mean everlasting. The KJV translates Exodus 21:5-6.

If a Hebrew servant serves his Hebrew master six full years and then does not desire his freedom, the 6th verse says, "Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; lie shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever (olam).

This clearly does not refer to “eternity.” Also in the book of Jonah (Jonah 2:6) the word olam is used to describe the period of time Jonah spent in the body of the whale. Does that mean that Jonah is there for eternity? The word olam, which has as its Greek equivalent, the word aion, actually refers to an indefinite period of time with a clear beginning and conclusion. Thus Daniel 12:2 can be taken to refer to age-lasting punishment for some, and not eternal punishment. If God were to punish eternally, that would contradict many passages in the Old Testament that indicates that God’s anger and His punishments are never permanent.

In a surge of anger I hid my face from you for a moment, but with everlasting kindness I will have compassion on you," says the LORD your Redeemer. (Isaiah 54:8)

I will not accuse forever, nor will I always be angry, for then the spirit of man would grow faint before me- the breath of man that I have created. I was enraged by his sinful greed; I punished him, and hid my face in anger, yet he kept on in his willful ways. I have seen his ways, but I will heal him; I will guide him and restore comfort to him, (Isaiah 57:16-18)

For men are not cast off by the Lord forever. Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love. For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to the children of men. (Lamentations 3:31-33)

Thus, by interpreting scripture with scripture, we find that the olam in its more accurate translation of “age” is more consistent with the God of the Bible whose love and compassion is unfailing and whose punishment is redemptive and followed by healing."

 

[Mailman Dan]

Is it your goal to show me that there are contradictions in the Bible?

If it fact that were true, is it safe to say you don't believe those words of scripture, and that you have selected parts of it to *not* believe because they don't fit your religion?

"The Hebrew word olam, which is translated as “everlasting” in Daniel. Olam does not mean everlasting.

The problem with that is the exact same word is used to describe LIFE. So life, might only be temporary as well if you opt to believe the correct translation of "age-during."

Daniel 12:2
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to (age-during) life, others to shame and (age-during) contempt.

See the problem? Olam is also used as a term to decribe God, who we know has no limit.

I wonder how much joy one who cares about others can experience while believing his/her neighbor is tortured for eternity in hellfire

BINGO! You just found out why the scripture instructs us to be a witness and share our faith. Because Christians know the danger, and believe the warnings God gave us, we share the gospel to our neighbors, and even stangers all over the world in every way we can (even the internet)

That should help you understand those pesky verses I've been posting...

Jude 1:23[FONT=&quot]
but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,

[/FONT]Mark 13:10
And the gospel must first be preached to all nations.

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]Luke 9:6
So they set out and went from village to village, preaching the gospel and healing people everywhere.

Mark 8:35
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it.


We know, however, many Christans do not follow the instructions. (I wonder how many people who *think* that everyone goes to heaven anyway, have a burning desire to witness to everyone the see??)

Matthew 9:37
Then he said to his disciples, "The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few.

Matthew 9:38
Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field."
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
Dan~~~>hopes your now starting to understand it

 

[Soul Searcher]

BINGO! You just found out why the scripture instructs us to be a witness and share our faith. Because Christians know the danger, and believe the warnings God gave us, we share the gospel to our neighbors, and even stangers all over the world in every way we can (even the internet)

That should help you understand those pesky verses I've been posting...

Apparently the meaning behind my statement flew right over your head.

As for understanding the verses you have posted, I once understood them as you do, then my eyes were opened and I started to see the light.

 

[Martinez]

The problem with that is the exact same word is used to describe LIFE. So life, might only be temporary as well if you opt to believe the correct translation of "age-during."

Yes, very intelligent Dan!

I guess that would be a problem if life eternal wasn't what God considers the norm, and the restoration of all things wasn't the plan, and death is thrown into the Lake of fire!

Obviously, since God is not subject to sin, then He is not subject to death, and since He is not subject to death, then He must be eternal.

duh!

 

[stumpjumper]

If it fact that were true, is it safe to say you don't believe those words of scripture, and that you have selected parts of it to *not* believe because they don't fit your religion?

My religion? *sigh*

The only people that have their own religion within Christianity are fundamentalists. I don't disregard a passage simply because it might not be empirically accurate or because it contradicts others within the Bible.

Take the Passover... Matthew puts the last supper on Passover while John dates the last suppper the day before passover. Reason being that John was establishing the claim that Jesus is the passover lamb and was crucified on passover...

It makes perfect sense within the Gospel even if it contradicts the synoptics. However, when you run across fundies who insist that every word in the Bible is literally inerrant and from God you get some really wierd apologetics.

Also, they claim that those that disagree with them follow their own religion. Of course, "my religion" makes sense out of the Bible, Jesus, and the world...

 

[non-religious]

Just a couple of questions..

Why are there so many verses talking about spreading the Gospel?

What benefit is there in doing that?
In other words what do we (those of us who either don't believe or struggle with our faith) have to gain from hearing the Gospel?

Why is Jesus refered to as the Saviour?
What is He saving us from and why?

If there is no hell (and I personally like to think there isn't) why did He endure the cross, beatings etc?
And why is it so necessary for us to be "saved"?
I ask these questions in all sincerity and would genuingly love to hear your answers

 

[stumpjumper]

Why are there so many verses talking about spreading the Gospel?

The "Gospel" literally means good news and so spreading good news is always good. The message is that you can live within God's grace now and that Christianity is not just a fire insurance policy to get you out of hell...

The Kingdom of God is within each one of us and we can access God and his grace by following the teachings of Jesus...

What benefit is there in doing that?

So that we might have life and have it to the fullest..

In other words what do we (those of us who either don't believe or struggle with our faith) have to gain from hearing the Gospel?

That you are loved by God even if you do not believe. "Blessed are the poor in spirit (those who have no concept of spiritual reflection or faith) because theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven."

Jesus, in that beatitude, was saying that those who have no spiritual apptitude or faith are blessed in spite of their apostasy.

Why is Jesus refered to as the Saviour?

What is He saving us from and why?

Jesus is the absolute savior and has saved us from sin and death. The penalty of sin was death not eternal punishment and from that we are saved if we turn to God and accept God's forgiveness and grace. May God's love conquer all hardened hearts and may all those who are poor in spirit accept the invitation into the Kingdom of heaven.

If there is no hell (and I personally like to think there isn't) why did He endure the cross, beatings etc?

And why is it so necessary for us to be "saved"?
I ask these questions in all sincerity and would genuingly love to hear your answers

From my point of view, Jesus endured the Cross to save us from sin, death, and to usher in God's kingdom. As Paul says, our God is the God of the living not the dead and through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ God's grace and love came to all of us....

 

[KCDAD]

What benefit is there in doing that? In other words what do we (those of us who either don't believe or struggle with our faith) have to gain from hearing the Gospel?
Salvation is matter of accepting that you are saved already... and living without the guilt and anxiety of the "UNBELIEVER".

Why is Jesus refered to as the Saviour?
What is He saving us from and why?
Our own misery, guilt and torment

If there is no hell (and I personally like to think there isn't) why did He endure the cross, beatings etc?
And why is it so necessary for us to be "saved"?
I ask these questions in all sincerity and would genuingly love to hear your answers

Perhaps this is the most understood question in Christiandom... he suffered and died on the cross because we killed him. We: who were represented by the intellectual and religious elite of Jerusalem and Rome of the first century. We: who were represeented by the common people of Jerusalem who cried out to crucify him and denied him and deserted him. He did not have to die... we could have all accepted him and his teachings then, but we chose not to.
His resurrection was not necessary, except for the fact that we killed him. But since we did, (as they say... you can't keep a good man down), Jesus showed his power over death and our reason not to fear it by the resurrection.
And yes, Virginia, there is no Hell.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Perhaps this is the most understood question in Christiandom... he suffered and died on the cross because we killed him. We: who were represented by the intellectual and religious elite of Jerusalem and Rome of the first century. We: who were represeented by the common people of Jerusalem who cried out to crucify him and denied him and deserted him. He did not have to die... we could have all accepted him and his teachings then, but we chose not to.
His resurrection was not necessary, except for the fact that we killed him. But since we did, (as they say... you can't keep a good man down), Jesus showed his power over death and our reason not to fear it by the resurrection.
And yes, Virginia, there is no Hell.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to KCDAD again.

 

[furry001]

Perhaps this is the most understood question in Christiandom... he suffered and died on the cross because we killed him. We: who were represented by the intellectual and religious elite of Jerusalem and Rome of the first century. We: who were represeented by the common people of Jerusalem who cried out to crucify him and denied him and deserted him. He did not have to die... we could have all accepted him and his teachings then, but we chose not to.
His resurrection was not necessary, except for the fact that we killed him. But since we did, (as they say... you can't keep a good man down), Jesus showed his power over death and our reason not to fear it by the resurrection.
And yes, Virginia, there is no Hell.

The bible contradicts you on the importance of the resurrection:

[bible]1 Corinthians 15:12-19[/bible]

 

[Mailman Dan]

The bible contradicts you on the importance of the resurrection:

The bible contradicts almost every universalist teaching. No need to pick just one.

What benefit is there in doing that? In other words what do we (those of us who either don't believe or struggle with our faith) have to gain from hearing the Gospel?
Salvation is matter of accepting that you are saved already... and living without the guilt and anxiety of the "UNBELIEVER".

Why is Jesus refered to as the Saviour?
What is He saving us from and why?
Our own misery, guilt and torment

Many unbelievers have no guilt of anything. This is even more true of cults. (islam, Satanism, ect..)

It's clear that Universalist have an unusual idea of the gospel. (everyones already saved)

John 3:3
In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. "

John 3:7
You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'

1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
(note: he was addressing the living)

His resurrection was not necessary,

1 Corinthians 15:14
And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.

1 Corinthians 15:17
And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!

I'd hold scripture in higher reguards. It's the basis of the Christian faith. To ignore so much of it and claim translation errors on the parts you don't agree with is why so many various religions teaching countering bibical dortrine. (universalism being one of many)



Dan~~~>hopes you'll reconsider that the bible states facts, not suggestions

 

[Soul Searcher]

The bible contradicts almost every universalist teaching. No need to pick just one.

Yeah when read literally it contradicts almost every religous teaching, including the ones who like to preach to us.

 

[Martinez]

Yeah when read literally it contradicts almost every religous teaching, including the ones who like to preach to us.

Ssshhhhh!

if you take away an everlasting Hell for sinners, then Dan won't have anything to make Him feel superior!