Do Non-believers go to Hell 2

[Soul Searcher]

Now, if we imperfect humans love our children enough to do this, then how much more would our God do for HIS creation?

You would think that almost anyone would be able to understand such an analogy but alas the blinders are on and the brickwall is firmly in place for many.

A famous person once said they have eyes but they do not see. They have ears but they do not hear.

I pray that someday they will be healed of the blindness and deafness that hides these simple truths from them.

 

[Cleany]

You understand!!!!!

We all deserve hell, but God loved us so much He didn't want us to go there.
So He made a JUST way for us to be saved.
The penalty of sin is death. A death had to occur to pay for our sins. Only Jesus (as eternal God living a perfect life) death could pay the eternal penalty for all of us.
He sacrificed His Son, His Son took our place, Jesus died the death that we deserve, Jesus died the death that was meant for us.
It is like if you got a speeding ticket, and owe $250. Say the judge says "I'll pay that for you". Your penalty is paid, the judge is just!
Our penalty is paid by the judge - our Judge is just!

its not that people dont understand, its that they disagree. your story is based on an outdated model for understanding the cross that relies on the jewish sacrificial system.

 

[Martinez]

God created us all, not just his followers. We are his creation, and therefore we are His children.

If you had a child whom you loved very much, but they decided to run away, would you just say, "oh, well, they chose to run away, so they aren't my child anymore."? Of course not! You would still love them as your child and do everything you could to bring them back to you.

Now, let's say you find them before they even think of coming back to you. Are you going to turn them away to whatever is in store for them? Of course not! You would welcome them with open arms simply because you love them so much! You would talk to them and try to make them understand how much you love them and want them to be with you.

Now, if we imperfect humans love our children enough to do this, then how much more would our God do for HIS creation?

Mat 7:9 What man is there among you, who if his son shall ask him for bread will offer him a stone?
Mat 7:10 Or if the son shall ask him for a fish will offer him a snake?
Mat 7:11 If you then, imperfect as you are, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in Heaven give good things to those who ask Him!


Weymouth new testament, beautiful translation!

 

[BillR]

sighhh yes of course nonbelievers go to hell...Jesus is the only way to the Father...who is in heaven...but if you want to continue to believe that you can choose not to follow God then I guess your choice is hell...nobody's fault but yours...

This is getting so boring...I guess you put out a thread enough times you will get what you want...but it is still the same...NO!!!! NONBELIEVERS GO TO HELL!!!!

You said it perfectly!!

 

[KCDAD]

God created us all, not just his followers. We are his creation, and therefore we are His children.

If you had a child whom you loved very much, but they decided to run away, would you just say, "oh, well, they chose to run away, so they aren't my child anymore."? Of course not! You would still love them as your child and do everything you could to bring them back to you.

Now, let's say you find them before they even think of coming back to you. Are you going to turn them away to whatever is in store for them? Of course not! You would welcome them with open arms simply because you love them so much! You would talk to them and try to make them understand how much you love them and want them to be with you.

Now, if we imperfect humans love our children enough to do this, then how much more would our God do for HIS creation?

How I have longed to fell the caress of your words on my heart... welcome back.

 

[KCDAD]

You said it perfectly!!

Nobody chooses to come to Father, but by the Holy Spirit... so if it isn't up to me and it is up to Holy Spirit, how come The Holy Spirit doesn't have to go to Hell instead of me?

 

[AngelusSax]

The Holy Spirit can show you to the Father, as can the Son, but you can also run away from what was shown. That's why the HS doesn't have to go to hell.

 

[Martinez]

The Holy Spirit can show you to the Father, as can the Son, but you can also run away from what was shown. That's why the HS doesn't have to go to hell.

You can lead a horse to living water, but you can't make Him drink!

 

[Mailman Dan]

A famous person once said they have eyes but they do not see. They have ears but they do not hear.

The irony is that it was Jesus, and He was speaking of judgement. (not that you heard Him)

One section from Matther 13

30
Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' "

40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

48When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

He even explained it in detail..

18"Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."

So you are correct... Many have ears, but they don't hear. They read what Jesus said, and deny His words. They see, but don't believe Him...

I'd take His warnings abit more seriously...

Dan~~~>prays one day Universalist will believe Him

 

[Soul Searcher]

The irony is that it was Jesus, and He was speaking of judgement. (not that you heard Him)

Actually he is talking about the mysteries of heaven.
Perhaps you do not see and hear as well as you think

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.



btw I learned long ago to reject any teaching that is moraly unsound so you need not concern yourself with me believing your hellfire teachings.

 

[katallasso]

What you who do not understand about us Universalists is that most of us believed for years exactly as you do. But at some point in our walk the Father saw fit to reveal this wonderful truth to us. If the rest were as I was it was not something we embraced immediately. Having been preprogrammed to wrongly believe in an eternal hell as part of the wonderful truths we maintained as gospel it was not a doctrine we just let go of willy nilly. It took years for my wonderful Lord to reveal this truth. But when He did it was so overwhelmingly freeing and made our Lord so much more loving and grand.

He is a Father that wanted us to know the difference between right and wrong. Wanted to reveal to us His wonderful love and mercy. Good and evil was needed to do that well.

What Father would not desire to redeem His creation? Does it seem a reasonable thing to you that if you had the power, to leave your own fallen children in that pitiful state for an eternity with no way out if you had the wherewithall to change the situation? Sounds like a no brainer to me. Unless of course you are a vindinctive taskmaster that just wants to be right or needs revenge.

 

[Casstranquility]

No, non-believers do not go to hell, and here's why:
1: God is love.

2: Love keeps no record of wrongs.

 

[Mailman Dan]

btw I learned long ago to reject any teaching that is moraly unsound so you need not concern yourself with me believing your hellfire teachings.

*your* being the key word...

It isn't MY anything. It is scriptural, as has been overly proven. And, yes it's been overly proven that Universalist don't use the bible as a base for their belief in a "temporary" cleaning fire. You've read what Jesus said, the best arguement you have is that the bible was written by men, therefor jesus must have been mis quoted when He said thing like...

Luke 12:4-5 "And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!"

Matthew 18:8
If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.

Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:46
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

You've also discounted the teaching in the rest of the NT, so I won't bother you by posting scripture, as your value of it is less than man made doctrines based on your own version of what moral, rather than Gods...

No, non-believers do not go to hell, and here's why:

Universalist rely completely on their feelings, and not scripture. This is why they are wrong. Many people have different feelings, however God would be the absolute.

Galatians 1:8
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

Hebrews 6:1-2

1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,[and of faith in God, instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

Christian will keep preaching scripture, which is why the world will hate us, and do their best to stop it. Unlike feelings, however, the scripture doesn't change...

Dan~~~>knows one must hold to solid bibical instruction

 

[Soul Searcher]

It must be sad to hold such a negative outlook.

 

[Cleany]

very

 

[Mailman Dan]

It must be sad to hold such a negative outlook.

To believe the bible is not sad by any means. Knowing Jesus provided a way out is great joy. Understanding God has appointed a day to judge the world, is a motive to share your fatih...


Jude 1:23
but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

[FONT=&quot]2 Corinthians [/FONT][FONT=&quot]5[/FONT][FONT=&quot]:11[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;

[/FONT] 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,


But I think scripture has spoken for itself. The question will be, how much of it do you believe to be true? How much of it have you removed to follow the doctrine that you do?

Dan~~~>will keep following the instruction in scripture to the best of his ability

 

[stumpjumper]

To believe the bible is not sad by any means. Knowing Jesus provided a way out is great joy. Understanding God has appointed a day to judge the world, is a motive to share your fatih...

A way out of what? Anyway, it is your *interpretation* of the Bible that they are talking about not the Bible.

I personally don't care if you want to follow the hellfire and brimstone POV but just realize that many Christians do not agree with your opinion and they have just as much right to their interpretation of scripture as you do..

In fact, since most of your proof texts don't prove what you think they do, I would say that they have more right to that interpretation.

But I think scripture has spoken for itself. The question will be, how much of it do you believe to be true? How much of it have you removed to follow the doctrine that you do?

Why yes it did and it said that your doctrines of fear should not be used by a Christian:

Romans 8
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

and

As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Also, 2 Corinthians 5 is about the doctrine of reconciliation and how Christians are supposed to be ambassadors for Christ and live in love and light.

Not fear.

Dan~~~>will keep following the instruction in scripture to the best of his ability

Good read the ones about not living in and spreading the doctrine of fear.

 

[Soul Searcher]

To believe the bible is not sad by any means. Knowing Jesus provided a way out is great joy. Understanding God has appointed a day to judge the world, is a motive to share your fatih...

I wonder how much joy one who cares about others can experience while believing his/her neighbor is tortured for eternity in hellfire

But I think scripture has spoken for itself. The question will be, how much of it do you believe to be true? How much of it have you removed to follow the doctrine that you do?

One could easily ask you the same questions. For example do you believe.

1Ti 2:4 Who [God] will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

If so what does this do to your eternal hellfire doctorines?,
If not how can you accuse anyone of removing scripture?

The thing is we just look at it differently. I see that God wants all men to be saved and think well if this is true then something is wrong with the hell teachings. You see the hell teachings and think it is true then you see that God wants all men to be saved and say well he may want it but it ain't gonna happen.

So how do you get around this one?

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Should we really believe that God wants to save all men but just can't do it?

Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Ask yourself the question how can god punish sinners in an eternal fire and save all men. Then consider that our God is a consuming fire, that it is God who punishes and that it is God who saves. The fact that this fire is eternal does not mean that the duration of punishment is eternal. If it were then all men could not be saved and the bible clearly states that God will have all men to be saved.

1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Can't you see that the Good News is all about the salvation of mankind and not about an eternal torture pit?

 

[katallasso]

Dan,

Your belief in a translation of the bible that is faulty in it's translation of the word "aionion" is hindering you in coming into the wonderful truths of so great a salvation.


St.Augustine was in the Manichaean religion for nine years prior to becoming a Christian. This was an Eastern religion of fire worship. In this system, the universe would be divided forever between good and evil. Sound familiar? The Romans and Greeks had a habit of incorporating the religions of the countries they conquered. The religions of the East flooded into the church after Constantine united church and state.

If you want to begin to understand this mistranslated word the following will be very informative.

"N. B. THE FAILURE TO TRANSLATE "AION" AS "AGE," CAN BE MISLEADING AND OFTEN HIDE VITAL TRUTH.
Some scholars say that in the following phrases, it can be misleading to translate "aion" and "aionios" literally as "age," or "ages," because they are idiomatic However, the failure to recognise the literal meaning of "aion," or "aionios," can also mislead us, and hide essential truth. Many theologians and translators seem to have failed to recognise the theological importance, significance, and meaning that God desires us to see in "aion" and "aionios," and because of this have not comprehended God's wonderful plan of the ages. The translation of "aion," as "world," or "ever," has often obscured some of the truth that God wanted us to understand from His Scriptures. Consider the following.

(a). "en touto to aion," literally, "in this age," is translated in the A.V. as "in this world." Mt.12v32. The A.V. translates "aion" thirty six times as "world," and it often fails to carry the significance that God intended."

(b). "eis aiona," literally, "unto an age," translated in A.V. as "for ever." Jude.v13.

(c). "eis ton aiona," literally, "unto the age," is translated as "for evermore," or "for ever," or, with a negative, as "never." Mt.21v19. Mk3v29. 11v14. Lk.1v55. Jn.4v14. 6v51,58. twice in Jn.8v35., Jn.8v51,52. 10v28. 11v26. 12v34. 13v8. 14v16. 1Cor.8v13. 2Cor.9v9. Heb.5v6. 6v20. 7v17,21,24,28. 1Pet.1v25. 1Jn.2v17. 2Jn.v2.

(d). "eis tous aionas," literally, "unto the ages," is translated as "for ever," or "for evermore." In Mt.6v13. in Majority Text, lacking in Aleph and B, Lk.1v33. Rom.1v25. 9v5. 11v36. 16v27. 2Cor.11v31. Heb.13v8.

(e). "eis pantas tous aionas," literally, "unto all the ages," is translated in NKJ as "both now and forever." Jude.v25.

(f). "eis hemeran aionos," literally, "unto a day of an age," is translation in the A.V. as "for ever." 2Pet.3v18.
The Greek constructions of our "for ever and ever," occur in the following places."

(g). "eis tous aionas ton aionon," literally, "unto the ages of the ages," is translated as "for ever and ever," or "for evermore." Gal1v5. Phil.4v20. 1Tim.1v17. 2Tim.4v18. Heb.13v21. 1Pet.4v11. 5v11. Rev.1v6,18. 4v9,10. 5v13. 7v12. 10v6. 11v15. 15v7. 19v3. 20v10. 22v5.

(h). "eis ton aiona tou aionos," literally, "unto the age of the age," is translated in A.V. as "for ever and ever." Heb.1v8.

(i). "eis aionas aionon," literally, "unto ages of ages," is translated in the A.V. as "for ever and ever." Rev.14v11.

(j). "tou aionos ton aionon," literally, "of the age of the ages," is translated in A.V. as ""for ever and ever." Eph.3v21. "
http://www.thesecretofeternallife.com/judgementc.html
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"For example, the Pharisees, according to Josephus, regarded the penalty of sin as torment without end, and they stated the doctrine in unambiguous terms. They called it eirgmos aidios (eternal imprisonment) and timorion adialeipton (endless torment), while our Lord called the punishment of sin aionion kolasin (age-long chastisement). "
Origin of Endless Punishment
http://hellbusters.8m.com/upd3.html

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"Well, it seems a proper translation of this little word aion eliminates many contradictions in quite a few Bible translations, which, by the way, have caused many to abandon Christianity because they said the Bible contradicts itself. The fact of the matter is, some Bible translations do contradict themselves, but not in the original languages. "
The Power of Life and Death in a Greek Four Letter Word--Aion
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Powe...LetterWord.html
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The Council Refused to Condemn Universalism
Even the influence of Justinian and his servile, compliant bishop, and his disreputable queen, failed to force the measure through. The action of this local Synod has been incorrectly ascribed to the Fifth Ecumenical Council, nine years later, which has also been inaccurately supposed to have condemned Universalism, when it merely reprehended some of the erratic notions of "Origenism"--doctrines that even Origen himself never accepted, but that were falsely ascribed to him by ignorant or malicious opponents; doctrines that no more resemble universal restoration, as taught by the Alexandrine fathers, than they resemble Theosophy or Buddhism. So that, though the Home Synod was called by the Emperor Justinian expressly to condemn Universalism, and was commanded by imperial edict to anathematize it, and though it formulated fifteen canons, it refused to obey the Emperor, and did not say one word against the doctrine the Emperor wished to anathematize. The local council came to no decision. Justinian had just arbitrarily condemned the writings of Theodore of Mopsuestia, and Theodoret, and a terrible controversy and division ensued, and Theodorus, of Cesaræa, declared that both himself and Pelagius, who had sought the condemnation of Origen, ought to be burnt alive for their conduct.6
from: Unsuccessful Attempts to Suppress Universalism :
http://hellbusters.8m.com/upd21.html
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"Of decisive importance is the new usage of aion found in the New Testament, where we hear Christ speaking of ‘this (present) aion,’ ‘the end of this aion,’ and ‘the coming (future) aion.’ … To speak of ‘this aion,' its ‘end' and ‘the aion to come' clearly lends to aion the meaning of a limited time."
Life, Time, Entirety:
http://www.askelm.com/newsletter/l200501.htm

" No proposition is capable of more simple proof than that aeonian is not a synonym of endless. It only means, or can mean, in its primary sense, pertaining to an aeon, and therefore "indefinite," since an aeon may be either long or short; and in its secondary sense "spiritual," "pertaining to the unseen world," "an attribute of that which is above and beyond time" "
F.W. Farrar on "aeonian"
http://www.saviour-of-all.org/faithfathers.html
www.christianforums.com/~stranger (15 views)

 

[Mailman Dan]

Why yes it did and it said that your doctrines of fear should not be used by a Christian:

Psalm 2:11
Serve the LORD with fear and rejoice with trembling.

Psalm 15:4
who despises a vile man but honors those who fear the LORD, who keeps his oath even when it hurts,

Psalm 34:9
Fear the LORD, you his saints, for those who fear him lack nothing.

Proverbs 19:23
The fear of the LORD leads to life: Then one rests content, untouched by trouble.

Ecclesiastes 8:13
Yet because the wicked do not fear God, it will not go well with them, and their days will not lengthen like a shadow.

Luke 12:5
But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

Proverbs 16:6
By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.

Fear, when placed rightfully in the One who will Judge, is useful fear. I tell my kids not to play on the freeway..why?...because its useful advice that if ignored will lead to death...

But let me guess....do you think "fear" in the bible means something else besides fear?

Dan~~~>not sure how you disreguard that much scripture as well...(and the other 300 text I didn't even post)