DO CHILDREN GO TO HEAVEN ?

[LoveofTruth]

No there are not.

Probably the passages you are thinking of refer to Jewish children born into the Mosaic covenant. That has no bearing on the children of gentile Christians.

Here is a start of this discussion. But a first question to ask is, "did Jesus Christ die for an infant. And are all infants in Adam when they come into the world?

"9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."(john 1:9 KJV)

this Light is in every man that cometh into the world including children. This is the free gift that came upon all men through the work of Christ on the cross. This Light is Christ, the seed, the word sown, the truth they hold inwardly and that which may be known of God manifest in them as scripture shows

"18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."(romans 5:18 KJV)

"11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved."(Luke 8:11,12 KJV)

"12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do."(Hebrews 4:12,13 KJV)

"19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them."(Romans 1:19 KJV)

When a child comes into the world they have this free gift given through the grace of Christ for them and through his work done in time on the cross. This is the mystery hid from ages and this mystery is Christ in you the hope of glory. A child is in this light until they hate the light. They are not condemned until they hate this light and until their deeds are done that are evil as scripture shows,

"19 And this is the condemnation, [the reason men are condemned] that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."(John 3:19-21 KJV)

Here we see that none are condemned until they hate the light and until they do evil and knowingly do it. A child has not done any good or evil yet and so they do not have knowledge and are in ignorance. If they are not condemned yet then they are saved by the grace of God. They are in ignorance and God winks in times of ignorance as he did in the OT as well with many,

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:"

and to them that know to do good and do it not to them it is sin. if they do not know they are ignorant

James 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin."

and sin is transgression of a known law. But a child, or one day old infant does not know good or evil yet, they have ignorance and so sin is not imputed to them they do not have the law or understanding of it yet.

Romans 4:15
Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

"
Romans 5:13
"...sin is not imputed when there is no law"

and so as a child they are without the law and spiritually alive through the grace of God and the free gift given to them through Christ death in time. This is the state of all infants who are born. They are like sheep, and when they sin they go astray. All we like sheep have gone astray.

Paul said ( speaking of his time as a child without the law)

Romans 7:9
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died."

Here we must break down this verse in every detail

What does Paul mean he was "alive" without the law? When was Paul "without the law"? This must mean when he was a infant or young child in ignorance.

What does Paul mean he was "alive" once. This must refer to spiritual life, because he then says he died and he did not die physically.

When the commandment came (or when the light of the law shone in his mind and heart) and he understood it then his "sin revived", this is his sin nature that was in a kind of dormant state and it was then provoked by the law and he died (spiritually). This time when sin revives could be as some call an age of accountability, or when they are accountable and with knowledge before God.

I see this as the state of all infants and children in the world at lets say , one day old and later. But lets keep this discussion to a one day old infant that dies. If they die, i see this verse and others saying that they have not transgressed with knowledge the law and so are ignorant and not condemned because they have not hated the light yet by doing actual transgressions. Sin is not imputed where there is no law.

So all infants are "alive"(spiritually) until they understand the law or the light that reproves them. Then they have their sin nature revive and they die (spiritually) and need to be born again.

this is just a starting point. I also see when Jesus blessed the infants he was showing they are saved and their angels do always behold the face of the father.

 

[Doveaman]

I don't think it would be loving, fair or just to condemn a toddler for not having repented and responded to the Gospel when, through no fault of their own, they didn't live long enough to do so. A baby or toddler accused of that could, rightly, say "well why didn't you allow me to live long enough so that I could repent and hear about you".

What about those babies and toddlers God condemned in Noah's flood?

And what about these babies and toddlers that God also condemned:

"This is what the LORD Almighty says...'Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'" -- (1 Sam 15:2-3).

God's love is not our love, neither is our mercy His mercy.

"'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways,' declares the LORD." -- (Isa 55:8).

 

[Strong in Him]

What about those babies and toddlers God condemned in Noah's flood?

What about them?
They may have been punished for the sins of others, but God could still take them to heaven to be with him.

And what about these babies and toddlers that God also condemned:

Scripture doesn't say he condemned them. Again, they suffered for the sins of others; that doesn't mean they weren't taken to heaven to be with God.

God's love is not our love, neither is our mercy His mercy.

No, it's a billion times greater.
God is love, 1 John 4:8.
Love is described in 1 Corinthians 13:4-7, and shown in the cross - God gave his Son to die for godless sinners.
God is perfect, Matthew 5:48.

There is no way that God's love, mercy, grace and justice is lesser than ours. God made us in his image. He is the author and source of all these things; we have them, but they are weakened by our sinful natures.

"'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways,' declares the LORD." -- (Isa 55:8).

Of course God's thoughts are higher than ours. He is an infinite God; we have finite minds. He knows all things; we have limited knowledge. He can do all things; we are limited by time and space.
Of course his ways are different from our ways. How many of us would have believed that the Creator of the Universe would become part of his creation? Or that the King of the universe would be born in a stable, surrounded by animals, and grow up to be an itinerant preacher? How many of us, if we were planning the salvation of the world, would do so by sending our perfect Son to be betrayed, rejected, beaten and killed by sinful, godless, unbelieving people? Jesus constantly told us that God's ways and values were different from the world's - the first will be last, the meek shall inherit the earth, the least among you shall be great, and so on.

None of this shows that God's love is any weaker than our own. He IS love - that is his nature.
John says that if anyone does not love they do not know God. God IS love; he cannot not love.

 

[Strong in Him]

So guess what that means … when God the H.S. teaches "A" along with "B"

A: the cross and salvation
B: Baptism

• washes away sin: Acts 22:16
• connects us to Christ's death: Romans 6:3
• connects us to Christ's burial Romans 6:4
• clothes ourselves with Christ: Galatians 3:27
• saves by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 3:21
• is what Jesus did to make "a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless" Ephesians 5:25-27
• is what Jesus mentions first in making disciples of all nations Matthew 28:19-20
• is "for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” Acts 2:39

Then both are the truth.

If Jesus' death AND baptism save, then it means that Jesus' death, alone, isn't enough.
When Jesus said "it is finished" on the cross - meaning that he was dying for the sins of the world and reconciliation with God was achieved - maybe he should have added "the first part is finished, but you still have to be baptised in order to be saved."
He didn't.

Again, you've just repeated your list of Scriptures.

Contraire … it suggests you have an unwillingness to hear for I have pointedly answered without trying to be too confrontational.

No; you haven't explained why Jesus' death alone is not enough, but that salvation has to be Jesus' death + baptism - you just continue to post your list of Scriptures.
You haven't explained 1 John 1:9 which says that if we confess our sins God forgives and cleanses us, with no mention of baptism.
You haven't answered whether if someone who becomes a Christian and is born again but dies before they can be baptised, is saved.
You haven't responded to any of the Scriptures I quoted which show that it is through Jesus that we come to God, and through his death that we are forgiven, saved, reconciled to God and made clean and righteous. Are these Scriptures true?
You haven't responded to the question I asked about those who are baptised as babies. Are they saved at that point? What if they grow up to be atheists or people who never profess Jesus? Nor have you responded to the question of people who go through baptism just as a ritual; without faith or any real idea of what they are doing. Are they saved, washed and made whole just by going through water?

If you can answer these real questions of mine, which I ask because I want to know, not, as you seem to think, because I am unwilling to hear; we may have basis for a real discussion. It just seems that your response to these has been to repost the same list of Scriptures.

Just the opposite, it appears since you've determined it that has to be a one or the other, then to human reason Scripture appears contradicts itself.

No.
Scripture makes it clear that Jesus saves, that he is the Lamb of God who gave his life for the sin of the world, that no one goes to the Father except through him, that he alone gives eternal life and that if we are in Christ, we are new creations and have every spiritual blessing.
We are not told, "remain in the vine AND be baptised", or "Jesus AND baptism give eternal life", or "Jesus achieved partial salvation for mankind, but you need baptism to complete it."
Again, if baptism is needed to complete our salvation, it means that the cross isn't enough and has little power on its own. That means that someone could accept Jesus, die before they can be baptised, and they still remain unsaved. That is not true.

Instead as it has been stated by others, since Scripture speaks for itself then what Scriptures teach as ViaCrucis has also stated in post #193 is the Biblical teaching concerning this.

Scripture speaks for itself and clearly says that Jesus saves.
Not Jesus + churchmanship, devotion, baptism, a particular translation of Scripture or anything else. Jesus doesn't need anyone to add to his finished work - there is nothing we CAN add to his finished work. Jesus, the spotless Lamb of God, was sacrificed for the sin of the world, John 1:29; 1 Peter 1:19. Jesus the Good Shepherd, willingly lay down his life for his sheep, John 10:11.

Actually once again it's the opposite.
Scriptures teach something that you don't like.

Not at all; why do you make that judgement?
Scripture teaches that Jesus saves. End of. Full stop.
I have never said that baptism isn't important, I am just saying that it does not replace the finished work of Christ. Jesus came to die to redeem mankind. Reconciliation with God is through his death, not through water.
Again, if baptism could save us, Jesus wouldn't have needed to die. And saying that the cross AND baptism are needed for salvation, is saying that the cross - Jesus' death - isn't enough.

 

[Dave-W]

Here we see that none are condemned until they hate the light and until they do evil and knowingly do it. A child has not done any good or evil yet and so they do not have knowledge and are in ignorance. If they are not condemned yet then they are saved by the grace of God. They are in ignorance and God winks in times of ignorance as he did in the OT as well with many,

You are stretching scripture beyond the breaking point to arrive at that conclusion.

 

[Doveaman]

They may have been punished for the sins of others

Is it merciful and fair for God to punish babies for the sins of others?

but God could still take them to heaven to be with him.

Of course He could.

But until your claim is supported by scriptures, it's just a human opinion.

Scripture doesn't say he condemned them.

God ordered the deaths of babies, which means He condemned them to death.

Maybe you have a different term for it.

Again, they suffered for the sins of others

Would you punish a baby for the wrongdoings of others?

Are you more merciful than God?

that doesn't mean they weren't taken to heaven to be with God.

Of course it doesn't.

But until your claim is supported by scriptures, it's just a human opinion.

There is no way that God's love, mercy, grace and justice is lesser than ours.

You have already stated that God punished babies for the sins of others.

Is this something you would do to babies?

If this is not something you would do to babies, does this mean God is less merciful than you?

Of course God's thoughts are higher than ours.

And that's precisely why God can order the deaths of babies and still He remains infinitely merciful.

It would not be merciful if we did the same thing to babies.

None of this shows that God's love is any weaker than our own. He IS love - that is his nature.
John says that if anyone does not love they do not know God. God IS love; he cannot not love.

I agree.

 

[John tower]

No. God throws innocent children into hellfire. That is why he us such an awesome God.

I agree : I don't believe children go to hell bit I need a specific scripture thay says so , not just peoples sayso

 

[JoeP222w]

I guess I don't understand what you mean. Abortion is murder! But what does that have to do with the catholic mythology of 'original sin'?

Absolutely, abortion is indeed murder, I don't say that it isn't.

Rome did not come up with being born in sin. It is in the Bible presented as the natural state of man. If man is not born into sin, then man has no need of the Savior Jesus Christ. The Bible never present an age of accountability of sin. All mankind is born into sin and is in sin, regardless of age, that is why Jesus said that we must be born again to enter into the kingdom of God.

While it is true that a baby is absolutely precious and they have not sinned as much as someone who has been on the earth for 35 years, they are born into sin, and they need a change of their nature by God's grace.

For those who deny that everyone is born into sin and/or promote some age of accountability, that logic demands that we murder babies in the womb so that they never have a chance to sin and will automatically go to Heaven. So they should be the strongest supporters of abortion, using that logic.

If it is not clear, I find that kind of logic absurd and completely unbiblical (that we are not born into sin).

Abortion is a most vile and wretched thing to do to a human being. And I stand against anyone who would promote it, either directly or subtly by denying the word of God.

 

[RDKirk]

You are stretching scripture beyond the breaking point to arrive at that conclusion.

No. I have already listed the scriptures that explicit indicaes God takes ignorance into account in His judgment. An infant isn't absolutely innocent, but an infant is absolutely ignorant.

 

[ViaCrucis]

If Jesus' death AND baptism save, then it means that Jesus' death, alone, isn't enough.
When Jesus said "it is finished" on the cross - meaning that he was dying for the sins of the world and reconciliation with God was achieved - maybe he should have added "the first part is finished, but you still have to be baptised in order to be saved."
He didn't.

It's not an -AND- here. The significance, meaning, and purpose of Baptism is Christ's death and resurrection.

The issue here is a matter of apprehension, how do we apprehend Christ's once-and-for-all work? The Lutheran answer can be found in our Confessions, specifically from the Large Catechism:

"For neither you nor I could ever know anything of Christ, or believe on Him, and obtain Him for our Lord, unless it were offered to us and granted to our hearts by the Holy Ghost through the preaching of the Gospel. The work is done and accomplished; for Christ has acquired and gained the treasure for us by His suffering, death, resurrection, etc. But if the work remained concealed so that no one knew of it, then it would be in vain and lost. That this treasure, therefore, might not lie buried, but be appropriated and enjoyed, God has caused the Word to go forth and be proclaimed, in which He gives the Holy Ghost to bring this treasure home and appropriate it to us. Therefore sanctifying is nothing else than bringing us to Christ to receive this good, to which we could not attain of ourselves."

The once and for all, objective work of Christ for all is given to us as individuals through Means. The preaching of the Gospel is Means through which the Holy Spirit actually creates faith, delivering to us the reality of Christ's work and joins it to us as individuals.

Baptism is Means. Baptism isn't an AND or an ALSO, it is how God takes hold of us and unites us to what Christ has done for all. So Scripture says that all who have been baptized have put on Christ (Galatians 3:27) and it says that we who are baptized were buried with Christ, we died with Christ, and were raised up with Christ. Baptism is nothing less than our being joined to what Christ has done; thereby as a baptized person I can say I have been crucified with Christ, I have been buried with Christ, I have life in the resurrected Christ. Baptism isn't something atop of Christ's work, it is the bringing home of Christ's work to us.

Word and Sacrament are the Means of Grace; the way in which God takes the objective, once-and-for-all work of Jesus Christ and brings it to us as individuals, applies it to us, apprehends it for us. That is why we preach the Gospel and baptize, for the command to the Church isn't to keep what the Lord has done for us a secret, but to announce it to the world because by it the world is being saved. Read what the Apostle says in Romans ch. 10: How can they call on One they have not heard? How can they hear if no one is sent? So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ (Romans 10:14-15,17)

We do not add to Christ's work by baptism; we proclaim Christ's work through baptism.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Dave-W]

No. I have already listed the scriptures that explicit indicaes God takes ignorance into account in His judgment. An infant isn't absolutely innocent, but an infant is absolutely ignorant.

That is how you interpret those verses. I do not share that interpretation.

 

[Dave-W]

That is how you interpret those verses. I do not share that interpretation.

But please do not take my words as stating God automatically send infants and children to hell. I am not saying that either.

What I AM saying is that what becomes of deceased gentile children, there is no biblical instruction one way or the other, and that we should not attempt to make a solution up.

 

[RDKirk]

But please do not take my words as stating God automatically send infants and children to hell. I am not saying that either.

What I AM saying is that what becomes of deceased gentile children, there is no biblical instruction one way or the other, and that we should not attempt to make a solution up.

One thing this long thread (and all its previous versions) seem to forget is that God can ultimately judge whoever H wants however He whatever He wants to do, and He need not have explained Himself to us beforehand (which scripture also says explicitly).

 

[Loren T.]

You're welcome to continually counter-point what God the Holy Spirit teaches concerning baptism as what has been shown -

Baptism washes away sin: Acts 22:16
Baptism connects us to Christ's death: Romans 6:3
Baptism connects us to Christ's burial Romans 6:4
Baptism clothes ourselves with Christ: Galatians 3:27
Baptism saves by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 3:21
Baptism is what Jesus did to make "a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless" Ephesians 5:25-27
Baptism is what Jesus mentions first in making disciples of all nations Matthew 28:19-20
Baptism is "for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” Acts 2:39​

however every Scripture listed above concerning Baptism is God the H.S.'s truth and any such counter-points is irrelevant insofar as to God's Word is concerned.

I am always cautious about people who build entire theology's out of a verse here, and a verse there. When one begins to read entire books of the Bible and looks at overall themes and takes individual verses in context of the whole, a more healthy theology emerges. And when I do that with these passages, I find that it is not baptism that saves, the emphasis is always on grace and faith first and foremost. And when you apply that to infants, and find that faith can not be assumed, all that is left is grace. Not confidence that washing with water does anything, but confidence that God loves the innocent. There is no harm dedicating babies, as long as it is made clear that this is symbolic and not to be equated with saving faith. Faith is always in Christ, not in any ritual act. We are justified through faith, and Christs blood. Romans 5 . Not by works that any man should boast.

 

[Tutorman]

I agree : I don't believe children go to hell bit I need a specific scripture thay says so , not just peoples sayso

Not everything is in Scripture nor do I believe Scripture was meant to contain everything in it.

 

[RDKirk]

Not everything is in Scripture nor do I believe Scripture was meant to contain everything in it.

Scripture flat-out says as much:

Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written. -- John 21

And that is only with regard to what the incarnated Jesus did. Before that, all the universe, all things created both material and spiritual had been created through Him.

 

[Strong in Him]

I agree : I don't believe children go to hell bit I need a specific scripture thay says so , not just peoples sayso

I commend you for your devotion to Scripture.
But, and I'm not being funny or rude, why do you need that? There are things about God that we cannot know, and they're not written down, so we're not supposed to know; like who made him, what Jesus looked like or the date of his return. I think the issue of exactly who goes to hell is one of those; we are not meant to know, and don't need to know. Our mission is to preach the Gospel; other things are best left to God.

Although, there is heaps that we can learn about the character of God from Scripture; his love, mercy, compassion, grace, acceptance of children, and so on. Maybe we are meant to just trust in these things that we can know about God and his character?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I agree : I don't believe children go to hell bit I need a specific scripture thay says so , not just peoples sayso

In 2000 years, no one has found it.

If Yahweh shows you clearly otherwise, with perfect justice and righteousness and holiness and mercy ,
could you still believe in Him and trust Him ?

If Yahweh shows you clearly that no one goes to hell when they die,
with perfect justice and righteousness and holiness and mercy,
could you still believe in Him and trust Him ?

 

[Strong in Him]

Is it merciful and fair for God to punish babies for the sins of others?
Of course He could.

But until your claim is supported by scriptures, it's just a human opinion.

Unless there is a Scripture which specifically says that God sends babies to hell, all of this remains conjecture and unsupported Scripturally. Though see my previous reply - maybe we are meant to just trust in God's love and mercy.

God ordered the deaths of babies, which means He condemned them to death.

Hmmm.
I know it says that, but do we know that God will, planned and ordered them - or might it just have been that it was common practice for them to kill all their enemies so that there was no one who could take revenge on them?

Maybe you have a different term for it.
Would you punish a baby for the wrongdoings of others?

No. But I don't live in OT times where they had different ideas and understanding about God.
Maybe God couldn't reveal certain things to them at this point as they weren't ready to hear it.
There was an understanding in the OT that people were punished for the sins of others, or as revenge for some sin or injury. Yet Jesus taught us to love our enemies and the temptation to do evil.

But until your claim is supported by scriptures, it's just a human opinion.
You have already stated that God punished babies for the sins of others.

I don't know whether he did or not.
There are not 2 Gods; the God of the OT and the God of the NT. And he did not change his character and become perfect. The NT says that God IS love, compassionate, merciful, full of grace; that he is light and there is no darkness in him at all. So as he doesn't change, he must always have been like that.

Why does it not appear that he was always like that? Why does it seem as though the God of the OT was angry, vengeful and so on; why couldn't he have revealed himself, and sent Jesus, earlier? I don't know. I, and no doubt others, may make attempts to explain it, but I don't know.

What I DO know about God though, has been revealed in Jesus - the spotless Lamb of God who willingly laid down his life so that sinners could be reconciled to his Father. John tells us that this is what love is. We were sinners and deserve only the wages of sin, which is death, Romans 6:23. Yet God sent his Son so that we could have life, John 10:10.
This is the Gospel and is for all; all who hear and believe can be saved and become children of God. What of those who do/can not hear? There is no Scripture to say one way or the other; but I trust in the love and compassion of God. That is his nature, as revealed in Scripture and by Jesus.

 

[Galilee63]

Loren

Trust in our Lord Jesus Christ and trust in our Blessed Holy Trintiys Holy Divine Blessed Heavenly Sacraments for our Lord Jesus Christ Himself is Present Physically and Spiritually not just symbolically in all of His Blessed Holy Divine Heavenly Sacraments including in Him in His Holy Baptism, in Him in His Holy Reconciliation, in Him in His Holy Confession and in Him in His Holy Communion as Jesus explained in His Holy Word and in His Holy Word to His thousands and thousands of Holy Saintsmentioned in Gods Holy Word - His Bishops, Popes, Priests, Nuns/Sisters/Saints each century right through to the 1930s to Holy Saint Faustina.

The weakening of faith in the real presence of the Risen Christ in the Eucharist is one of the most significant aspects of the current spiritual crisis. Jesus wants to strengthen our faith in His Eucharistic presence. That is why from time to time in the history of the Catholic Church He gives us signs–Eucharistic miracles that clearly underscore the fact that He, the Risen Lord Himself in the mystery of His Divinity and glorified humanity, is truly present in the Eucharist. The most recent Eucharistic miracle recognized by the Church authorities occurred in 1996 in the capital of Argentina–Buenos Aires.

A consecrated Host becomes flesh and blood

At seven o’clock in the evening on August 18, 1996, Fr. Alejandro Pezet was saying Holy Mass at a Catholic church in the commercial center of Buenos Aires. As he was finishing distributing Holy Communion, a woman came up to tell him that she had found a discarded host on a candleholder at the back of the church. On going to the spot indicated, Fr. Alejandro saw the defiled Host. Since he was unable to consume it, he placed it in a container of water and put it away in the tabernacle of the chapel of the Blessed Sacrament.
On Monday, August 26, upon opening the tabernacle, he saw to his amazement that the Host had turned into a bloody substance. He informed Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, who gave instructions that the Host be professionally photographed. The photos were taken on September 6.
They clearly show that the Host, which had become a fragment of bloodied flesh, had grown significantly in size. For several years the Host remained in the tabernacle, the whole affair being kept a strict secret. Since the Host suffered no visible decomposition, Cardinal Bergoglio decided to have it scientifically analyzed.
On October 5, 1999, in the presence of the Cardinal’s representatives, Dr. Castanon took a sample of the bloody fragment and sent it to New York for analysis. Since he did not wish to prejudice the study, he purposely did not inform the team of scientists of its provenance. One of these scientists was Dr. Frederic Zugiba, the well-known cardiologist and forensic pathologist. He determined that the analyzed substance was real flesh and blood containing human DNA. Zugiba testified that, “the analyzed material is a fragment of the heart muscle found in the wall of the left ventricle close to the valves. This muscle is responsible for the contraction of the heart. It should be borne in mind that the left cardiac ventricle pumps blood to all parts of the body. The heart muscle is in an inflammatory condition and contains a large number of white blood cells. This indicates that the heart was alive at the time the sample was taken. It is my contention that the heart was alive, since white blood cells die outside a living organism. They require a living organism to sustain them. Thus, their presence indicates that the heart was alive when the sample was taken. What is more, these white blood cells had penetrated the tissue, which further indicates that the heart had been under severe stress, as if the owner had been beaten severely about the chest.”

Two Australians, journalist Mike Willesee and lawyer Ron Tesoriero, witnessed these tests. Knowing where sample had come from, they were dumbfounded by Dr. Zugiba’s testimony. Mike Willesee asked the scientist how long the white blood cells would have remained alive if they had come from a piece of human tissue, which had been kept in water. They would have ceased to exist in a matter of minutes, Dr. Zugiba replied. The journalist then told the doctor that the source of the sample had first been kept in ordinary water for a month and then for another three years in a container of distilled water; only then had the sample been taken for analysis. Dr. Zugiba’s was at a loss to account for this fact. There was no way of explaining it scientifically, he stated. Only then did Mike Willesee inform Dr. Zugiba that the analyzed sample came from a consecrated Host (white, unleavened bread) that had mysteriously turned into bloody human flesh. Amazed by this information, Dr. Zugiba replied, “How and why a consecrated Host would change its character and become living human flesh and blood will remain an inexplicable mystery to science—a mystery totally beyond her competence.”

Only faith in the extraordinary action of a God provides the reasonable answer—faith in a God, who wants to make us aware that He is truly present in the mystery of the Eucharist.

The Eucharistic miracle in Buenos Aires is an extraordinary sign attested to by science. Through it Jesus desires to arouse in us a lively faith in His real presence in the Eucharist. He reminds us that His presence is real, and not symbolic. Only with the eyes of faith do we see Him under appearance of the consecrated bread and wine. We do not see Him with our bodily eyes, since He is present in His glorified humanity. In the Eucharist Jesus sees and loves us and desires to save us.

Not merely "symbolic at all" - when you read Gods Holy Divine Word His Holy Scriptures - Holy Spirit with our Lord Jesus Christ God our Heavenly Father should be speaking to all hearts in Holy Unity with our hearts guiding us in His Holy Word - what assists is making The Sign of The Cross first focussing on Jesus and on His Life and on His Bitter Passion then praying and asking Jesus and Holy Spirit for Holy Spirits Holy Discernment reading Gods Holy Word.

Not analysing, nor studying, nor drawing ones own conclusions - trust in Jesus completely, know in your heart Soul and Mind that Jesus is both Physically and Spiritually Present and He will guide you in Gods Holy Discernment on His Holy Word and on all matters and things in daily lives.

It is "receiving our Lord Jesus Christ into hearts through Love Faith and Trust in Jesus - complete Trust in Jesus, in God The Most High our Holy Divine Majesty and for me also complete trust in my Holy Mother Mary whom led my heart in our Lord Jesus Christ - their Two Holy Divine Hearts are United back to Jesus completely.

One has to pretty much abandon the concepts of thinking in the earthly ways in black and white ways and or thinking they know everything. There are innumerable Holy Heavenly Divine Mysteries in our Blessed Holy Trinity and with God our Heavenly Father Gifting His only Begotten Son our Lord Jesus Christ and Gifting His only Favoured Holy Divine Daughter and Holy Mother of God with so many Heavenly Mysteries, Holy Divine Graces, Holy Divine Merciful Graces and Holy Gifts innumerable and countless going on forever that reverting to His Holy Divine Word - there can be 2 and 3 Holy Divine Messages in each of our Lords Holy Divine Word/Holy Divine Scriptures - yes "Divine, Heavenly Divine" - and Sacred - that this would leave our heart and minds in Souls reeling from the Holy Divine Love of God and intensity of His Holy Discernment.

Trust in Jesus in relation to everything including in our Lord in His Blessed Holy Divine Sacraments including Holy Baptism. Very very sad to pass over meeting Jesus in Holy Spirits Holy Discernment showing that we did not trust in Jesus being Holy Divine Physically and Holy Spiritually Present in all of His Holy Divine Heavenly Blessed Sacraments when it is our Lord Jesus Christ Whom stated

"Whosoever eats My Flesh and Drinks My Blood has Real Life in them" and
"Whosoever does not eat My Flesh and does not drink My Blood has no real Life in them".

So, too in all of our Blessed Holy Trinitys Holy Divine Heavenly Sacraments including Holy Baptism Loren T.