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It is not I who is attempting to "make the scripture say what we want it to mean than letting scripture speak for itself" by Non-Denom's rejecting with what God the H.S. taught in Scriptures:So, I'm curious what you do with all the kids you baptize who want nothing to do with God as adults? Did it just not take for them?
I temporarily forgot that I was debating with Lutheran/Calvinist thinking, which always in my experience means "We make the scripture say what we want it to mean", rather than letting the weight of scripture speak for itself on any topic.
Some baptize infants using the passage of Acts 2:39...The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”Leaving aside the debate about what baptism does for a believer for a moment, let's again point out that none of those verse have anything to do with baptism of infants. I'm not dissing believers baptism as a beautiful symbol. But no where are you told to baptize babies. It's a church tradition that developed later. Unfortunately, it creates a false idea of what salvation is, and I believe many are depending on their infant batism to save them eternally. The sacrements are all wonderful symbols, but one is saved solely by faith in Christ' s death and resurrection for them. How then, can a person be saved by something done to him before he can reason? By faith you are saved, not by works, whether they be circumcision or washing in water, or any other ritual practice.
John 5:24
John 6:40
They are to be brought up in the Word (I Corinthians 7 indicates they are holy while under the care and instruction of a believer, they confess their faith at an older age (much perhaps like Timothy...given for us in I Timothy 6:12 though it is unclear what all was meant by his good confession.) Baptism in any person is not a pass to heaven. Lutherans do not profess OSAS.So, I'm curious what you do with all the kids you baptize who want nothing to do with God as adults? Did it just not take for them?
I temporarily forgot that I was debating with Lutheran/Calvinist thinking, which always in my experience means "We make the scripture say what we want it to mean", rather than letting the weight of scripture speak for itself on any topic.
I knew that would be the default response from those who ignore everything else that Scriptures teach concerning Baptism --- up to and including that God the H.S. in 1 Peter 3:20-21 stating that baptism saves:1 Peter 3:21 actually says the opposite of what you claim.
"not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God."
Seems like he was trying to make it certain that the reader knew it was not the washing but the pledge that led to salvation.
I would say that you did misunderstand my position in part.I'm not offended.
I don't agree with you, and I don't like the picture that I think you're painting of God, though I may be wrong about that. But your relationship with God, and the way you see him, is your business.
Agreed.
That's what I'm saying! God created, loves knows about and cares for children.
So we can trust him to do what is right - and as he is a God of love, I believe that what he does is takes them to heaven to be with him; the One who made them.
Some people seem to be saying that children are born in sin, so if they die early, they are sinners who were not able to repent and will be judged accordingly. If you are not saying that and I have my wires crossed; I apologise.
My position is that I do not believe newborns/toddlers to be sinners. Even if they were, I do not believe God would condemn them for not having known him and repented of their sin when they died too early to be able to do so. God is love, full of mercy, grace and compassion. I do not believe he creates anyone just to send them to hell.
Hello Again Strong In Him!I'm not offended.
I don't agree with you, and I don't like the picture that I think you're painting of God, though I may be wrong about that. But your relationship with God, and the way you see him, is your business.
Agreed.
That's what I'm saying! God created, loves knows about and cares for children.
So we can trust him to do what is right - and as he is a God of love, I believe that what he does is takes them to heaven to be with him; the One who made them.
Some people seem to be saying that children are born in sin, so if they die early, they are sinners who were not able to repent and will be judged accordingly. If you are not saying that and I have my wires crossed; I apologise.
My position is that I do not believe newborns/toddlers to be sinners. Even if they were, I do not believe God would condemn them for not having known him and repented of their sin when they died too early to be able to do so. God is love, full of mercy, grace and compassion. I do not believe he creates anyone just to send them to hell.
God the Holy Spirit teaches in Scripture that baptism does indeed save: 1 Peter 3:20-21
20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
21 and this water* symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—
not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.
It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
The Bible explains that people enjoy the forgiveness of sins and eternal life by God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ his Son (Ephesians 2:8; Romans 3:28).
The Bible also teaches that baptism saves us (1 Peter 3:20-21)
The Bible also teaches baptism washes away our sins (Acts 22:16).
I was having this discussion with a brother yesterday ! He asked me if I thought children went to heaven : So I gave him the verse that came to my mind and it was : Except a man be born again he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven : So I said to him that a baby obviously has not been born again because he is just too young! I askef him if there were any verses that specifically state that a baby has a spirit : we could not find any : or verses that say babies go to heaven ! Both of us don't believe that babies go to hell though we could not find a single verse that specifically states this so there it is : what saist thou ?
First of all, thank you for starting a thread written in normal type, without lots of capitals.
I complained to you about it once before, so I think it only fair to say now that I appreciate it.
I understand that you're referring to babies, toddlers or children who may die before they can hear the Gospel and respond to God's love.
Personally, I believe they would go to heaven, to be with God. The reason for this is mainly because God is love, 1 John 4:8, compassionate, Exodus 34:6, just, Genesis 18:25 and kind, merciful and all the other attributes of love described in 1 Corinthians 13:4-7.
I don't think it would be loving, fair or just to condemn a toddler for not having repented and responded to the Gospel when, through no fault of their own, they didn't live long enough to do so. A baby or toddler accused of that could, rightly, say "well why didn't you allow me to live long enough so that I could repent and hear about you".
I believe that this is true for any baby/child who dies from illness; even more so if the baby was killed/aborted by the actions of someone else. The killer might get sent to prison, have a chance to repent, become a Christian and go to heaven; it would be very unfair if the child, whose life he took, was sent to hell.
You're welcome to continually counter-point what God the Holy Spirit teaches concerning baptism as what has been shown -In Noah's case, they were saved FROM water; the flood, which was sent, as punishment, to cleanse the earth of wickedness.
Like I said, if baptism saved, there would have been no need for Jesus to have even come, never mind die in agony. John was baptising for the forgiveness of sins before Jesus began his ministry.
I would imagine it is possible to go through any Christian ritual without actually being born again and believing what you are doing. We have had many infant baptisms at our church where the parents and christening party turn up, make some vows and you never see them again. Granted, that could be for any reason, and the Lord can still minister to/challenge them. But if baptism saved, then their child would, at the point of their baptism, be saved and reconciled to God. So there would be no need for repentance, accepting Jesus and being born again later on. The child could grow up to be an atheist, cult member, criminal etc etc - and yet they were saved at baptism.
It was Jesus' death on the cross that reconciled us to God, Romans 5:10-11; 2 Corinthians 5:18-20.
Jesus was the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, John 1:29, and the Good Shepherd who laid down his life for the sheep, John 10:11.
There is no other way to God, John 14:6, and no one else who can save us, Acts 4:12.
We have every spiritual blessing IN CHRIST, Ephesians 1:3.
A person can be saved, born again, filled with the Spirit and enjoy all these blessings before they are baptised - and if they died before baptism, they would still be saved and forgiven.
Jesus saves us and washes away our sins.
Baptism is important - it shows us, and others, what Jesus has already done for us. When I was baptised as an adult, I first gave testimony to how Jesus had saved me and what he had been, and was, doing in my life. A school friend, who wasn't a Christian at all at school, met Christ at university, was saved and born again. She later publicly declared her faith and was then baptised.
Neither she, nor I, entered the water as an unsaved sinner and rose as a full believer; I don't know of anyone who did.
Like I said, if baptism saved, forgave and gave us every blessing in Christ, people would be saved as babies and have no need to confess Christ as adults.
Baptism comes from a word meaning "to emerge". What happens in adult baptism is symbolic of what has happened to us spiritually. For Jews, water represented death; especially the river Jordan. (This idea is reflected in literature such as Pilgrim's Progress and hymns, e.g "when I tread the verge of Jordan".) Being submerged in the Jordan was symbolic of dying. Dying to what? Sin. When someone was/is raised up out of the water again, it is symbolic of rising to new life. When we accept Christ and trust that his atoning death has reconciled us to God, we become born again; die to our sinful nature, become new creations, 2 Corinthians 5:17, put on Christ and are filled with his Spirit.
All this can, and often does, happen before a person is baptised.
Usually also, in my experience, new believers want to be baptised into a church fellowship, the local body of Christ, by their minister, or maybe by the person who led them to Christ. All of this takes time to arrange. They may have been a Christian for a few months before this can happen; saved at the point of receiving Christ, not at the time of baptism.
So, I'm curious what you do with all the kids you baptize who want nothing to do with God as adults?
Did it just not take for them?
I temporarily forgot that I was debating with Lutheran/Calvinist thinking, which always in my experience means "We make the scripture say what we want it to mean", rather than letting the weight of scripture speak for itself on any topic.
1 Peter 3:21 actually says the opposite of what you claim.
"not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God."
Seems like he was trying to make it certain that the reader knew it was not the washing but the pledge that led to salvation.
You're welcome to continually counter-point what God the Holy Spirit teaches concerning baptism as what has been shown
Baptism washes away sin: Acts 22:16
Baptism connects us to Christ's death: Romans 6:3
Baptism connects us to Christ's burial Romans 6:4
Baptism clothes ourselves with Christ: Galatians 3:27
Baptism saves by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 3:21
Baptism is what Jesus did to make "a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless" Ephesians 5:25-27
Baptism is what Jesus mentions first in making disciples of all nations Matthew 28:19-20
Baptism is "for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” Acts 2:39
however every Scripture listed above concerning Baptism is God the H.S.'s truth and any such counter-points is irrelevant insofar as to God's Word is concerned.
How about a resurrection to their former lives as children?If Children do not go to heaven, what do you believe happens to them? are their other options besides the heaven and hell scenarios?
So guess what that means … when God the H.S. teaches "A" along with "B"The verses that I've quoted about Jesus, the cross and salvation are from the word of God too; the word that was inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Contraire … it suggests you have an unwillingness to hear for I have pointedly answered without trying to be too confrontational.You're not actually responding to the points I made, the questions I asked and the Scriptures I posted, just repeating certain Scriptures. This suggests to me that you can't/don't want to answer them, or that you in fact have no answer.
Just the opposite, it appears since you've determined it that has to be a one or the other, then to human reason Scripture appears contradicts itself.The "counterpoints" that you speak of are verses from Scripture.
Are you saying that Scripture contradicts itself, or that only the verses you quote are inspired by the Spirit, and the ones I quote aren't?
Are you saying that the verses from Scripture that I gave are irrelevant?
Actually once again it's the opposite.We can look at the verses individually if you like; though I am rather afraid that if I say something that you don't like, you will just tell me I am "counter-pointing" the teaching of the Holy Spirit, or giving my own interpretation..
I guess I don't understand what you mean. Abortion is murder! But what does that have to do with the catholic mythology of 'original sin'?So are you a strong supporter of abortion? That is what you position promotes. You are also promoting that grace can be demanded.
Don't worry about all the confusion here about baptism. There are many baptisms in scripture seven majour ones and many more but there is only one saving baptism. The saving baptism is not the washing with water but a baptism INTO Christ.I'm concerned. What do you think happened to those that were dead that Jesus went and preached to? It doesn't say he baptised them. Why would he preach to them only if they needed baptism? And what do you do with the theif on the cross being in paradise with Jesus when he wasn't baptised?
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