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Featured Do Catholics Deny Imputation?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Tree of Life, Sep 18, 2018.

  1. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

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    A Protestant who (I gather) believes in sola scriptura is making an appeal to tradition (ie, history).

    This is indeed a disturbing universe.
     
  2. Afra

    Afra Well-Known Member Supporter

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    See my previous response.
     
  3. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That's EXACTLY what concupiescence is. You have labored to envision a Catholic teaching, Biblical at that.
     
  4. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

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    As true that all may be, it's strange to discuss issues such as authority with them

    "You Catholics follow the traditions of men," shouted the Calvinist.
     
  5. Afra

    Afra Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Heh, don’t discourage him. It could be a positive development.
     
  6. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life A Sinner

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    The Reformers never rejected the importance of church tradition. They just did not believe it was infallible. Furthermore, the Reformers sought to reform the Catholic church and return to what it was before Roman tyranny of the church in the Middle Ages.

    But I mainly appeal to tradition because you believe it is valuable and to show you that it's incorrect to say that the church has never taught imputation.
     
  7. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life A Sinner

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    Sinful desires are themselves sin. Their very presence shows that justification does not remove our existential sinfulness.
     
  8. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Definitely.

    Some Reformed disagree with the rest of Protestants (and Catholics) on imputation. But somehow it's framed as a Catholic vs Protestant thing. Which it's really not. Most of us agree. Even if we think, from force of habit, that we shouldn't.
     
  9. Afra

    Afra Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No, that is not what the reformers sought. They created an entirely new theology that is found nowhere in the history of the Church.
     
  10. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life A Sinner

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    Actually Reformed theology is very much in line with the old Catholic tradition before the Roman tyranny of the Middle Ages. It is Rome who departed from the apostolic and Catholic church.
     
  11. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What EXACTLY do you mean by imputation?
     
  12. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life A Sinner

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    See post #1.
     
  13. Afra

    Afra Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No, it isn't. Orange expressly refutes Reformed theology, here:

    Historic Church Documents at Reformed.org

    According to the catholic faith we also believe that after grace has been received through baptism, all baptized persons have the ability and responsibility, if they desire to labor faithfully, to perform with the aid and cooperation of Christ what is of essential importance in regard to the salvation of their soul. We not only do not believe that any are foreordained to evil by the power of God, but even state with utter abhorrence that if there are those who want to believe so evil a thing, they are anathema. We also believe and confess to our benefit that in every good work it is not we who take the initiative and are then assisted through the mercy of God, but God himself first inspires in us both faith in him and love for him without any previous good works of our own that deserve reward, so that we may both faithfully seek the sacrament of baptism, and after baptism be able by his help to do what is pleasing to him. We must therefore most evidently believe that the praiseworthy faith of the thief whom the Lord called to his home in paradise, and of Cornelius the centurion, to whom the angel of the Lord was sent, and of Zacchaeus, who was worthy to receive the Lord himself, was not a natural endowment but a gift of God's kindness.
     
  14. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life A Sinner

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    .
     
  15. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No. One may have a temptation and it not be a sin. Only dwelling on a temptation is a sin. Otherwise when Jesus was tempted, that would have been sin on his part.
     
  16. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life A Sinner

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    Being tempted is not a sin. Jesus was tempted. But to desire to sin is a sin. Jesus never desired to sin. Justified people do desire to sin.
     
  17. Afra

    Afra Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Specifically what period and church do you refer to?
     
  18. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life A Sinner

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    Let me correct myself. I mistook Orange to be a later counsel than it was. I need to read up on it more.
     
  19. Afra

    Afra Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No worries. There are certainly many things in Orange that are consistent with Reformed theology.
     
  20. sparow

    sparow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I do not know what Catholics do but God does not turn a blind eye to sin; He forgives upon repentance. Imputed righteousness is not Biblical, neither is imputed sin; man's sin is the real thing as is man's righteousness.
     
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