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Featured Do Catholics Deny Imputation?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Tree of Life, Sep 18, 2018.

  1. joinfree

    joinfree Well-Known Member

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    Problems? Need interpretation of Luke 19:20? The Luke 19:20 is anti-protestantism.
     
  2. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Cool and refreshing with a kick!

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    A better question is "does scripture teach imputation?" but before either the question you ask or the one I asked can be answered: what is imputation?
     
  3. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Mystery Worshipper Supporter

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    According to what I understand based on my reading of the Joint Declaration on Justification, and reading Catholic devotional works, not necessarily.

    It's sort of like how Lutherans don't deny that there is a "new obedience" in the Christian. We acknowledge that, but it doesn't have the same place in Lutheran systematic theology that it does in Catholicism. I suspect the same is true regarding imputed righteousness in Roman Catholicism.

    I am reminded of a prayer by St. Therese of Lisieux that speaks to something of this:

    So, it seems to me, imputed righteousness is potentially compatible with Catholicism.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2018
  4. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Mystery Worshipper Supporter

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    Luther doesn't often speak of imputation in the scholastic sense as defined by later Protestants, he speaks of marriage as the primary imagery, with an exchange of possessions. In this way he is really drawing from medieval bridal mysticism, which has its origins going all the way back to the Gospel of John.

    The idea that Luther said we are but "snow covered dung" doesn't seem well evidenced by actual scholarship, it seems more like polemics. Luther's "Snow-Covered Dunghill" (Myth?)

    Luther has alot to say about regeneration and conversion, it's in our catechisms. But he has alot more to say about grace.
     
  5. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Mystery Worshipper Supporter

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    Lutherans do not believe anything like this . We have a calendar of individuals we commemorate for their lives as Christians, many of whom are Roman in fact.

    We do not believe in Christian perfection but that's not say we deny that Christians can make progress in the Christian life . We are just extremely cautious in this regard because we recognize perfectionistic tendencies can cause confusion about the nature of the Gospel.

    Nothing God declares is a legal fiction, it's a promise.
     
  6. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

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    St. Tereses' little way - I read her stuff years ago and loved it.
     
  7. Mountainmike

    Mountainmike Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The difficulty we have in discussing it, is in part finding common language to talk about it: nuanced difference in the uses of justification , sanctification and salvation for example. Read Akins " salvation controversy" as a balanced view of what some of those differences are. Catholics are able to accept considerable parts ( not all) of TULIP for example but most would not realise it, because some of the difference is language not meaning.

    In general Catholics accept the " Augustine" view of infused righteousness, rather than Protestant view of imputed.

    The differences are nuanced - And where the rubber hits the road on this is consideration of a lifelong need to cooperate with God for salvation, and/ or the freedom or ability to turn away from God resulting in losing it.

    That said it is complementary enough for the Lutheran World Federation to have achieved a joint accord with the Holy See on such matters. Which illustrates the problem - the reason it was possible is the LWF use of the word " faith" as used in " faith alone" ( meaning formed faith including charity) is not the same as the Catholic use of the same word- so language difference , and sometimes mutual antipathy, causes many of the problems!


     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2018
  8. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I take it when God declares something it is actually so. A legal statement of a reality, which is what I think Paul would agree to. Reformed people have emphasized to me many times that we do not become just, but are only as if just in the mind of God. To me they have to be one and the same. To most Bible reading Christians they would have to be one and the same as well.

    Do Catholics believe in imputation? Yes, of course, as long as what is imputed to be the case is actually the case. Do all Reformed believe that what is imputed to be is actually the case? If so, this is a tempest in a teapot. If not, they have something to figure out.

    The Joint Declaration on Justification is binding on Catholics, in addition to being a decent explanation.
     
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  9. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I would argue, from what I have heard over the years from Protestants, that most of them will agree with Catholics in concept that imputation and infusion go together. I think it is a less common bird, the Reformed, who distinguish imputation to be without any infusion.

    Imputation is Biblical language, and thus we accept it too. The difference between us and the 'imputation only' folks is that we agree with many many Protestants that what God has imputed God has made so in the person of the justified.
     
  10. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Catholics believe that Gods purpose, in allowing sin/evil to have free reign in His universe for a time to begin with, is not to merely, at some later date, suddenly decide to save some otherwise worthless wretches and damn the rest but rather to bring about an even greater good out of the whole endeavor than that which He started with. He doesn't decide to ignore justice but rather to restore it to His wayward creation and bring about even more justice or holiness yet. God loves and esteems man inestimably and wants the best for-and from-us. We're not only forgiven, washed, and made new creations, but we're also to 'go, and sin no more'.

    The will of man, to the extent he can, is necessarily involved in this process, in this justifying, in accepting God's offer, in choosing good over evil. Adam freely fell and we must, with the help of grace, rise again as He draws, without forcing us, towards justice. This explains why God didn't simply prevent Adam from falling to begin with or forgive and restore him immediately after the fall. This world has a purpose, of educating us, of helping mold us, of helping us come to reject the evil we experience- that we know-here and run to the good instead. The will is the prize so to speak, and molding us into God's image as we cooperate with the whole endeavor from beginning to end is the goal. He's glorified as we come to accept His love and return that love, as we "become" love too, reflecting His image.

    And the beginning is for us to step out and act in faith in response to God's actions. Jesus came to reveal God, to restore the "knowledge of God" that Adam had basically dismissed and lost to this world, and thereby reconcile man with God. From there, through faith, relationship or communion with God, 'apart from whom we can do nothing', is restored, a communion that man was made for, a communion which, itself, is the most critical aspect of man's justice. From within that partnership, that intimate knowledge, (Jer 31:34), God indwells and causes man's justice (Jer 31:32). The result is that the virtues of faith, hope, and love are now placed in us, with love being the most important. This is how the law is fulfilled. Righteousness, the righteousness of God, the righteousness of Christ, is not merely imputed but infused now. And from there it's expected to grow even more yet. Read the Parable of the Talents to see how this dynamic is to play out, God giving and man "investing", the will of man playing its part throughout.

    In the end we're judged based on what we did with what we were given. A teaching I'm familiar with sums it up this way, quoting a 16th century believer: "At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

    Matt 25:31-46 sheds light on this, giving examples of how love shown towards the "least of these" is a basis of judgement. We have no need to fear judgment to the extent that we love.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2018
  11. Halbhh

    Halbhh The wonder and awe Supporter

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    A couple of things -- isn't it also the Catholic view (and that of most Christians) that any believer can baptize another believer. We are happy to have a pastor/priest do that, because they do it correctly, but any believer can do it correctly, and it's then entirely full. (That's Catholic doctrine also I think, but you can check). Next, do 'protestants' view baptism as only symbolic? Hardly -- that's quite a minority view (though not doubt you can find some on the internet). Having been in a lot of different churches (8 denominations at least a few services each, and 3 for hundreds each), I think overwhelmingly the mainstream view of individual believers is that baptism has a profound effect, and even when people don't know what that effect is, they feel it. They don't think it's "only symbolic". So, out with that misperception I hope.

    A few mistaken conceptions corrected:
    Catholics do not worship Mary.
    Other Christians do not generally view baptism or communion as only symbolic.
    We don't actually know the viewpoints of other people by hearsay or broad brush painting, but by talking with them as a person, as a human being.
     
  12. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

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    True. There are guidelines for that but as a general thing, anybody can baptize someone.
     
  13. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    I've always found the whole eastern - western thing to be a bit confusing. I mean, did the Reformation begin in the east or west? Did it thrive and grow first in the east or west? So it spread to the west and now it's "western"? See I do not get it, because the theology is not exclusive to the west, and actually came from the east. Sorry just a peeve, east/west pride, ugh.
     
  14. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life A Sinner

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    If we are made perfectly righteous existentially in imputation, why do we continue to sin?
     
  15. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    You quote:

    This is an extremely important verse to show imputing our sins to Christ, so the imputing of righteousness to man seems logical, BUT:

    Is that even a good translation?

    What does “Christ made to be sin” or “Christ made sin” mean: did Christ become a sinner, did a being become an intangible thing like “sin” and are there other scripture to help us with this?

    If you go to the NIV there is an alternative translation for at the bottom where “sin offering” is given as an alternative to “being made sin” and we all know Christ was a “sin offering”, so what support is there for that translation?

    Paul being a scholar of the Torah, used a Hebraism. In this case, the Hebrew word for "sin" was also used to mean "sin offering" (see the Hebrew word: chatta'ath), and thus to be "made sin" was a Hebrew way of saying "made a sin offering". the NASB cross-references to Romans 8:3 which uses "sin offering" in a similar text as 2 Corinthians 5:21

    There is the analogy in 2 Corinthians 8:9; the cross-reference to the clearer statement in Romans 8:3 that Christ was sent "in the likeness of sinful flesh" to deal with sin; and the allusion to Sacrifice in 2 Corinthians 5:21 where it says Christ "knew no sin" in corresponding to the sacrificial animal being free of blemish (otherwise Paul saying "knew no sin" would be irrelevant here).

    The Greek word for "sin" that Paul uses is used in the Greek Old Testament both to mean "sin" and "sin offering," with both usages even in the same verse such as in Leviticus 4:3.

    You can certainly do a deeper study of 2 Cor 5: 21 and we can go into Ro.3-4.

    Just talking about imputing sin:

    We die because “we all sin” and not because Adam and Eve sinned.

    We got “knowledge” of good and evil from Adam and Eve’s sin and curses but: is knowledge itself bad? Is death bad? Is having limited resources “bad”? Is having to “work” bad? Is it bad for us to be surrounded by needy people? Do all these things help willing mature adults to fulfill their earthly objective?

    The results of Adam and Eve’s sin does not have to be we all were imputed with their sin, but it does mean all mature adults need to sin and will sin. Yes, seemingly “bad” stuff happens to us today like Christ had to go to the cross, satan is roaming the earth, tragedies of all kind happen, death happens, hell exists, and sin is allowed to happen, but these are all needed to help willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective and not because Adam and Eve sinned and those sins were imputed to us.
     
  16. PaulCyp1

    PaulCyp1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What you wrote sounds like Catholic teaching reworded in a less scriptural way.
     
  17. Ripheus27

    Ripheus27 Holeless fox

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    On the contrary, Catholics clearly do not worship Mary. In Dante's PARADISO, when Dante is in the Empyrean, he does not see Mary inside the divine nature. He sees her below it. Yes, he looks to her before looking up to Christ and the rest of the Trinity, but her lesser station is explicitly described. And I daresay it is not for Christians to speak of others so harshly, for if we are indwelt by the Spirit, we will be gentle, patient, etc., not of a mind to castigate people so readily, no? Or at least we will try to find love for others more readily than we try to find contempt for them.
     
  18. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    God determines what is and is not sin, so God’s Law provides a list of actions and thoughts that are sin. We “die” because the system for fulfilling our earthly objective requiring sin and death. Adam and Eve showed us and them: “We could not fulfill our earthly objective without first sinning.”

    "The wages of sin is death" or the result from our sinning is both our separation from God and eventual our physical death. Does that mean we “pay” with our death what we owe God?

    Quit blaming Adam and Eve and thus take the blame off ourselves.

    We die because “we all sin” and not because Adam and Eve sinned.

    We got “knowledge” of good and evil from Adam and Eve’s sin and curses but: is knowledge itself bad? Is death bad? Is having limited resources “bad”? Is having to “work” bad? Is it bad for us to be surrounded by needy people? Do all these things help willing mature adults to fulfill their earthly objective?

    The results of Adam and Eve’s sin does not have to be: “we all were imputed with their sin”, but it does mean all mature adults need to sin and will sin. Yes, seemingly “bad” stuff happens to us today like Christ had to go to the cross, satan is roaming the earth, tragedies of all kind happen, death happens, hell exists, and sin is allowed to happen, but these are all needed to help willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective and not because Adam and Eve sinned and those sins were imputed to us.

    Adam and Eve’s time in the Garden and sinning, allowed them and the rest of us to learn many things including the fact that the Garden scenario is a lousy (impossible) place for humans to fulfill their earthly objective.

    Would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your personal ability to obey God (the Garden) or in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your just accepting His Charity (Love) (where you are today)?
     
  19. Tutorman

    Tutorman Charismatic Episcopalian

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    The reformation was an all western idea
     
  20. Afra

    Afra Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There is not a single verse in Sacred Scripture that teaches that our Lord Jesus’s personal righteousness is imputed to a believer.

    And that doctrine is found nowhere else in the history of the Church before Luther.

    The verse quoted above does not state or otherwise teach that our Lords’s personal righteousness is imputed to a believer. This is how some Protestants interpret the verse, and this is their tradition, but the verse itself does not expressly teach or imply the meaning that those Protestants attach to it.
     
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