Do Catholics Deny Imputation?

thecolorsblend

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The doctrine of imputation does not rely on these words from Romans 5, although they do bear witness to it. The doctrine of imputation is supported by the whole covenantal framework of Scripture with federal covenant headship, covenant blessings, and covenant curses. There are many places in Scripture which testify to it and it also has much historical pedigree.
A Protestant who (I gather) believes in sola scriptura is making an appeal to tradition (ie, history).

This is indeed a disturbing universe.
 
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Afra

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...in your personal opinion. I trust you'll understand if I reject your opinion and stick with the actual word of God (including Isaiah 53:5). Have a blessed day, brother.
See my previous response.
 
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chevyontheriver

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But the Bible does not say that we simply have an ability to fall back into sin. The Bible says that we have sinful desires which still exist within regenerate and justified people. See Galatians 5:17 and Romans 7 for more on this.
That's EXACTLY what concupiescence is. You have labored to envision a Catholic teaching, Biblical at that.
 
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thecolorsblend

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Well FWIW, I think that some of their conclusions are reasonable interpretations. I think that the Catholic Church does a better job of interpreting the texts, of course, but I can at least see the logic behind some of their conclusions (the Calvinists in particular).
As true that all may be, it's strange to discuss issues such as authority with them

"You Catholics follow the traditions of men," shouted the Calvinist.
 
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Afra

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A Protestant who (I gather) believes in sola scriptura is making an appeal to tradition (ie, history).

This is indeed a disturbing universe.
Heh, don’t discourage him. It could be a positive development.
 
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Tree of Life

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A Protestant who (I gather) believes in sola scriptura is making an appeal to tradition (ie, history).

This is indeed a disturbing universe.

The Reformers never rejected the importance of church tradition. They just did not believe it was infallible. Furthermore, the Reformers sought to reform the Catholic church and return to what it was before Roman tyranny of the church in the Middle Ages.

But I mainly appeal to tradition because you believe it is valuable and to show you that it's incorrect to say that the church has never taught imputation.
 
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Tree of Life

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That's EXACTLY what concupiescence is. You have labored to envision a Catholic teaching, Biblical at that.

Sinful desires are themselves sin. Their very presence shows that justification does not remove our existential sinfulness.
 
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chevyontheriver

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This is indeed a disturbing universe.
Definitely.

Some Reformed disagree with the rest of Protestants (and Catholics) on imputation. But somehow it's framed as a Catholic vs Protestant thing. Which it's really not. Most of us agree. Even if we think, from force of habit, that we shouldn't.
 
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Afra

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The Reformers never rejected the importance of church tradition. They just do not believe it is infallible. Furthermore, the Reformers sought to reform the Catholic church and return to what it was before Roman tyranny of the church in the Middle Ages.

But I mainly appeal to tradition because you believe it is valuable and to show you that it's incorrect to say that the church has never taught imputation.
No, that is not what the reformers sought. They created an entirely new theology that is found nowhere in the history of the Church.
 
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Tree of Life

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No, that is not what the reformers sought. They created an entirely new theology that is found nowhere in the history of the Church.

Actually Reformed theology is very much in line with the old Catholic tradition before the Roman tyranny of the Middle Ages. It is Rome who departed from the apostolic and Catholic church.
 
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chevyontheriver

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But I mainly appeal to tradition because you believe it is valuable and to show you that it's incorrect to say that the church has never taught imputation.
What EXACTLY do you mean by imputation?
 
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Afra

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Actually Reformed theology is very much in line with the old Catholic tradition before the Roman tyranny of the Middle Ages. It is Rome who departed from the apostolic and Catholic church.
No, it isn't. Orange expressly refutes Reformed theology, here:

Historic Church Documents at Reformed.org

According to the catholic faith we also believe that after grace has been received through baptism, all baptized persons have the ability and responsibility, if they desire to labor faithfully, to perform with the aid and cooperation of Christ what is of essential importance in regard to the salvation of their soul. We not only do not believe that any are foreordained to evil by the power of God, but even state with utter abhorrence that if there are those who want to believe so evil a thing, they are anathema. We also believe and confess to our benefit that in every good work it is not we who take the initiative and are then assisted through the mercy of God, but God himself first inspires in us both faith in him and love for him without any previous good works of our own that deserve reward, so that we may both faithfully seek the sacrament of baptism, and after baptism be able by his help to do what is pleasing to him. We must therefore most evidently believe that the praiseworthy faith of the thief whom the Lord called to his home in paradise, and of Cornelius the centurion, to whom the angel of the Lord was sent, and of Zacchaeus, who was worthy to receive the Lord himself, was not a natural endowment but a gift of God's kindness.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Sinful desires are themselves sin. Their very presence shows that justification does not remove our existential sinfulness.
No. One may have a temptation and it not be a sin. Only dwelling on a temptation is a sin. Otherwise when Jesus was tempted, that would have been sin on his part.
 
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Tree of Life

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No. One may have a temptation and it not be a sin. Only dwelling on a temptation is a sin. Otherwise when Jesus was tempted, that would have been sin on his part.

Being tempted is not a sin. Jesus was tempted. But to desire to sin is a sin. Jesus never desired to sin. Justified people do desire to sin.
 
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Afra

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Let me correct myself. I mistook Orange to be a later counsel than it was. I need to read up on it more.
No worries. There are certainly many things in Orange that are consistent with Reformed theology.
 
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sparow

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Reformed theology - and most all the Protestants who came from the Reformation - believe that the righteousness of Christ (which he accomplished during his earthly humiliation) is imputed to believers. This means that Christ's perfect obedience to the Father is credited to the account of believers such that they are seen as perfectly righteous in the eyes of God and are justified. The same is true with Adam's sin. The guilt of Adam's sin is imputed to all who are "in Adam" (credited to their account). So all who are in Adam are guilty by virtue of his sin.

Do Catholics deny the doctrine of Christ's imputed righteousness? If so, why?

I do not know what Catholics do but God does not turn a blind eye to sin; He forgives upon repentance. Imputed righteousness is not Biblical, neither is imputed sin; man's sin is the real thing as is man's righteousness.
 
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