• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured Do Catholics Deny Imputation?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Tree of Life, Sep 18, 2018.

  1. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

    +4,326
    Christian
    Married
    Thank you as always for your personal opinion, but it's irrelevant to the post of mine you quoted. Perhaps following the threads to which I was responding would be helpful. Please see below.
     
  2. Afra

    Afra Well-Known Member Supporter

    865
    +213
    United States
    Catholic
    Single
    No, what I wrote is completely relevant because the topic of this thread is why Catholics deny the view of imputation that some Protestants hold, and the verse you cited is one of the most frequently cited verses in support of that view, as you certainly know. I only quoted you for the purpose of quoting the verse.

    And the verse you cited does not teach that our sins are imputed to our Lord Jesus, so you are wrong on that front, as well.
     
  3. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

    +5,131
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    US-American-Solidarity
    Experientially we know we do. We still have concupiescence.

    If Adam and Eve were created perfectly righteous, why did they sin?
     
  4. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

    +4,326
    Christian
    Married
    ...in your personal opinion. I trust you'll understand if I reject your opinion and stick with the actual word of God (including Isaiah 53:5). Have a blessed day, brother.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2018
  5. Afra

    Afra Well-Known Member Supporter

    865
    +213
    United States
    Catholic
    Single
    The actual word of God does not state that our sins our imputed to our Lord. If you are sincere in your professed intention to stick to the words of Sacred Scripture, you will stop imposing Protestant tradition on the text and reject that view of imputation, because the text simply does not state what you interpret it to mean.
     
  6. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

    +4,326
    Christian
    Married
    ...in your personal opinion. I trust you'll understand if I reject your opinion and stick with the actual word of God (including Isaiah 53:5). Have a blessed day, brother.
     
  7. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life A Sinner

    +5,295
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    But the Bible does not say that we simply have an ability to fall back into sin. The Bible says that we have sinful desires which still exist within regenerate and justified people. See Galatians 5:17 and Romans 7 for more on this.
     
  8. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

    +4,896
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    I agree with you. And I think this is part of the Protestant dilemma. Those who believe in sola scriptura are stuck doing a balancing act. They want to stick to the word on the page... but there are many words spread across many pages, and those words do not interpret themselves. Somebody, some human, has to interpret them: either the individual reader or else a Church authority.

    The end result is a system of Protestant theology where the facts are mangled to match the conclusion simply to differentiate themselves from the Catholic Church. Sad, really.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  9. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life A Sinner

    +5,295
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    Romans 5 teaches that in the same way that the guilt of Adam's sin is imputed to us, the "righteousness of one" is imputed to those who are in Christ. (Romans 5:18)
     
  10. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life A Sinner

    +5,295
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
  11. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life A Sinner

    +5,295
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    Peter taught that the guilt of our sins was imputed to Christ upon the tree (1 Peter 2:24).
     
  12. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

    +4,896
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    That passage doesn't outright say anything about imputed righteousness. Among other things, it says that one act brought justification to men. Speculating about the precise modalities whereby that happened is going pretty far away from the actual text on the actual page, wouldn't you say?
     
  13. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life A Sinner

    +5,295
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    Check out what Eusebius, the Bishop of Caesarea said concerning our sins being imputed to Christ -

    “Thus the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sins of the world, became a curse on our behalf.” He then stated, “And the Lamb of God not only did this, but was chastised on our behalf, and suffered a penalty He did not owe, but which we owed because of the multitude of our sins; and so He became the cause of the forgiveness of our sins, because He received death for us, and transferred to Himself the scourging, the insults, and the dishonour, which were due to us, and drew down upon Himself the appointed curse, being made a curse for us.”
     
  14. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life A Sinner

    +5,295
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    A fair translation of the Greek is "the righteousness of one" rather than "one righteous act".
     
  15. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life A Sinner

    +5,295
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    Check out what Athanasius said concerning our sins being imputed to Christ -

    “For, as when John says, ‘The Word was made flesh we do not conceive the whole Word Himself to be flesh, but to have put on flesh and become man, and on hearing, ‘Christ hath become a curse for us,’ and ‘He hath made Him sin for us who knew no sin,’ we do not simply conceive this, that whole Christ has become curse and sin, but that He has taken on Him the curse which lay against us (as the Apostle has said, ‘Has redeemed us from the curse,’ and ‘has carried,’ as Isaiah has said, ‘our sins,’ and as Peter has written, ‘has borne them in the body on the wood.’”
     
  16. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

    +4,896
    Catholic
    Married
    US-Others
    Fair enough. But you're still interpreting the words. In so doing, you're imposing meaning upon the words. And it happens to be a meaning which I (and at least 1.3 billion other living souls) do not see apparent on the page.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  17. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life A Sinner

    +5,295
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    The doctrine of imputation does not rely on these words from Romans 5, although they do bear witness to it. The doctrine of imputation is supported by the whole covenantal framework of Scripture with federal covenant headship, covenant blessings, and covenant curses. There are many places in Scripture which testify to it and it also has much historical pedigree.
     
  18. Afra

    Afra Well-Known Member Supporter

    865
    +213
    United States
    Catholic
    Single
    Your trust is warranted, because I most certainly do not care whether you accept or reject what I write.

    I am glad to see that you intend to stick to the word of God. Doing so should help you to see your errors.

    You wrote something that “in my opinion” (to state the obvious) is false. I posted what I believe to be correct. I trust that you will understand that I reject your opinions and stick with the truth.
     
  19. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

    +4,326
    Christian
    Married
    ...in your personal opinion. I trust you'll understand if I reject your opinion and stick with the actual word of God (including Isaiah 53:5). Have a blessed day, brother.
     
  20. Afra

    Afra Well-Known Member Supporter

    865
    +213
    United States
    Catholic
    Single
    Well FWIW, I think that some of their conclusions are reasonable interpretations. I think that the Catholic Church does a better job of interpreting the texts, of course, but I can at least see the logic behind some of their conclusions (the Calvinists in particular).
     
Loading...