Do Catholics Deny Imputation?

chevyontheriver

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Being tempted is not a sin. Jesus was tempted. But to desire to sin is a sin. Jesus never desired to sin. Justified people do desire to sin.
So you admit that there is a difference between a temptation and a temptation so engaged that it is a sin. Clarity is good.
 
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Tree of Life

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So you admit that there is a difference between a temptation and a temptation so engaged that it is a sin. Clarity is good.

When Jesus was tempted he was tempted externally by the devil. When we are tempted we are tempted internally by sinful desires. Jesus was not tempted internally as we are.
 
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chevyontheriver

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When Jesus was tempted he was tempted externally by the devil. When we are tempted we are tempted internally by sinful desires. Jesus was not tempted internally as we are.
Respectfully I think that's blowing smoke.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Let me correct myself. I mistook Orange to be a later counsel than it was. I need to read up on it more.
You know what Newman said about learning your history?
 
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Afra

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Like the existence of God and the Trinity maybe?
I think more than that, but I am sure you have your opinion on that. I think some aspects of Reformed theology are very close to Thomist Predestination.
 
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Afra

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When Jesus was tempted he was tempted externally by the devil. When we are tempted we are tempted internally by sinful desires. Jesus was not tempted internally as we are.
This is interesting. Do you hold that concupiscence is sin worthy of punishment?
 
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chevyontheriver

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I think more than that, but I am sure you have your opinion on that. I think some aspects of Reformed theology are very close to Thomist Predestination.
Well, we can affirm about 3.5 of 5 in TULIP. Way better than the average Protestant.
 
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chevyontheriver

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This is interesting. Do you hold that concupiscence is sin worthy of punishment?
No. Not at all. It is an EFFECT of original sin, common to us all, and not sin in itself. It's like a habit. The habit itself is not a sin but it leads you to sin. You sinned when you did what you did to start the habit. Still having the habit is not sinful. Not fighting the habit is sinful. Indulging the habit is sinful.

Sorry. I didn't realize you were responding to someone else. Curious to see what the reply is there.
 
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Tutorman

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The doctrine of imputation does not rely on these words from Romans 5, although they do bear witness to it. The doctrine of imputation is supported by the whole covenantal framework of Scripture with federal covenant headship, covenant blessings, and covenant curses. There are many places in Scripture which testify to it and it also has much historical pedigree.

Only in Calvinism not in all of Christianity
 
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thecolorsblend

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Check out what Eusebius, the Bishop of Caesarea said concerning our sins being imputed to Christ -

“Thus the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sins of the world, became a curse on our behalf.” He then stated, “And the Lamb of God not only did this, but was chastised on our behalf, and suffered a penalty He did not owe, but which we owed because of the multitude of our sins; and so He became the cause of the forgiveness of our sins, because He received death for us, and transferred to Himself the scourging, the insults, and the dishonour, which were due to us, and drew down upon Himself the appointed curse, being made a curse for us.”
Eusebius, Eusebius, mmm... is that the same Eusebius that got in trouble for embracing heresy?
 
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chevyontheriver

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Eusebius, Eusebius, mmm... is that the same Eusebius that got in trouble for embracing heresy?
Well there are multiple Eusebii, but this particular one was the condemner of Athanasius, condemned himself rightly as an Arian, never made a saint for that reason, but a pretty good historian. Just because he pontificated on a matter of theology means zero.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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The same is true with Adam's sin. The guilt of Adam's sin is imputed to all who are "in Adam" (credited to their account). So all who are in Adam are guilty by virtue of his sin.

No, we are not guilty of Adam's sin, we suffer the consequences of it. Only Adam is guilty of Adam's sin...
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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This is not an orthodox view. Death, sin, and legal guilt are all interrelated. 1 Corinthians 15:56 says - "The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law." This is to say that we die because of the legal penalty due to us because of sin. "The wages of sin is death". People are mortal because Adam's guilt is imputed to them as their federal, covenant head. Romans 5:15 says that many died through the one man's trespass.

No, your view is not the Orthodox view. believe me, I know ;-)
 
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gordonhooker

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No, your view is not the Orthodox view. believe me, I know ;-)

You do realise that when people use the word (o)rthodox they may not be necessarily referring the word (O)rthodox right? It is a bit like catholic and Catholic...

orthodox/ˈɔ:θədɒks/
▶adjective
  1. Following orconforming to the traditional orgenerally accepted rules orbeliefs of areligion,philosophy, orpractice:Burke's views were orthodox in histime |orthodoxmedical treatment |orthodoxHindus .
    •(of aperson) notindependent-minded;conventional andunoriginal:arelatively orthodoxartist .

  2. Ofthe ordinary orusual type;normal:theyavoided orthodoxjazz venues .
  3. (usually Orthodox )relating toOrthodox Judaism:Orthodox Jewish boys |everyone Iknew wasOrthodox .
  4. (usually Orthodox )relating to the Orthodox Church.
→ orthodoxlyadverb

– originlate Middle English: fromGreek orthodoxos(probably via ecclesiastical Latin), fromorthos‘straight orright’ +doxa‘opinion’.
 
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Ripheus27

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I'm pretty sure the phrases in our scriptures that are translated using the word "imputed" were using the wording/concept metaphorically. Infused/imparted grace makes more sense and the epistles are highly abstract documents, by the by, so trying to interpret their talk of imputation as strictly concrete and literal (notions of "federal representation") is going to miss the mark.
 
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Tree of Life

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I think you have drifted a bit from that. I'm not the first to ask for a clarification of terms.

The broad idea of imputation would be "crediting" or "reckoning". The word reckon comes from words meaning to count, to add up, or to conclude.

When we talk about our sins counting against us or God counting our sins against us we are talking about imputation. If God credits us as being unrighteous or evaluates us as unrighteous because of our sins, then our sins are being imputed to us.

The Bible talks about the man whose sins are not reckoned (or imputed) against him. Psalm 32:1-2 says: "Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man against whom the Lord counts no iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no deceit." When God forgives sins, he does not impute our sins to us. In other words, our sins are not counted against us and are not reckoned to our account.

The doctrine of imputed righteousness is that the perfect, spotless, righteous record of Christ is imputed to believers. His righteousness is reckoned to their account and they are treated by God as if they were perfectly righteous. Because of imputed righteousness, God has no wrath toward them and only desires to bless and reward them.

Similarly, our sins are imputed to Christ and he suffers God's wrath for our sins. He, during his life but especially on the cross, was treated not as his righteousness deserved, but as our sins deserve. The guilt of our sins was imputed to Christ and he "bore our sins in his body on the tree."

That's one attempt to explain the idea of imputation and how it relates to our relationship with Christ.
 
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Tree of Life

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Respectfully I think that's blowing smoke.

If you say that Jesus was tempted by his own nature then you must say that he had a sinful nature. Since Jesus is God, this would be most heretical.
 
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