Do atheists believe in objective morality?

[allhart]

Nobody knows. Not you, not me, not anyone on this forum. Besides unless any of us are cosmologists I highly doubt we will do justice to the theories that exist already.

Also as to "you guys do" I think my confusion is evidence enough that I am not used to people that leap around introducing a new topic in every single post.

I have a rational explination derived from the Bible, even if you will not except the explanation. Doesn't make it not true or unbelievable!!

 

[knowledgeIsPower]

I have a rational explination derived from the Bible, even if you will not except the explanation. Doesn't make it not true or unbelievable!!

No you don't. You have an answer to "who", not an answer to "how".

 

[Exiledoomsayer]

I have a rational explination derived from the Bible, even if you will not except the explanation. Doesn't make it not true or unbelievable!!

Your idea of rational is.. unconventional.

Just so you realize, just because you do not accept the magic spell cast in the future to create the past explaination does not make it not true or unbelievable. Its just as rational.

How did matter derive itself without a designer?

How did the designer derive itself without a extra designer?

 

[Jade Margery]

How did matter derive itself without a designer?

How did the designer derive itself? The fact is, none of us know exactly how the universe began. The only difference between you and me is that I can admit there are gaps in my knowledge while you insist that an all-powerful force has communicated to you the intricate truths of the universe through a book written less than two thousand years ago from the collected verbal traditions of a bunch of arabs and translated several times to a language you can understand like a really big game of 'telephone' and also you are the one of the few people who really understands what the all-powerful intelligent force wants you to do, unlike all the billions of people in the world who believe in different APIFs or even the ones who believe in the same APIF but interpret its totally clear and understandable translated book in completely different ways from you.

I have a rational explination derived from the Bible, even if you will not except the explanation. Doesn't make it not true or unbelievable!!

The word you want is 'accept'. Not 'except'. Except means almost exactly the opposite of accept. In fact, to except something, if it could even be used as a verb (hint: that's an action word, which it isn't) would mean to exclude it. I'm not going to point out the dozens of errors in your posts because if you didn't learn this stuff by the age of 39 I figure there's not much that can be done, but you keep using this word over and over and it's taxing on the sanity of people who actually paid attention in English class.

I do hope you accept my advice.
[/rant]

 

[allhart]

Your idea of rational is.. unconventional.


How did the designer derive itself without a extra designer?

Don't know.....Who's to say? And evil by mans conventional design is insane too! We can rationalize things away as well?

 

[allhart]

No you don't. You have an answer to "who", not an answer to "how".

Genesis 1

 

[Exiledoomsayer]

Don't know.....Who's to say? And evil by mans conventional design is insane too! We can rationalize things away as well?

Im pretty sure I could rationalize the concept of "the sweet taste of blue" away.

However, why do you feel it is perfectly acceptable to say
"I do not know where the designer came from"
but feel that it is not acceptable to say
"I do not know where the matter of the universe came from"
any explaination?

 

[allhart]

Im pretty sure I could rationalize the concept of "the sweet taste of blue" away.

However, why do you feel it is perfectly acceptable to say
"I do not know where the designer came from"
but feel that it is not acceptable to say
"I do not know where the matter of the universe came from"
any explaination?

At least we come to a point to where we now our limitations on reality and the perspective of and on our point of views, but rationally someone had to do it! We can't say where God comes from, but that in itself makes Him God now doesn't? Otherwise you are the God of your world, except for the boundary's to which your limited to...... the worlds play pen!

 

[knowledgeIsPower]

Genesis 1

That is an answer to "what order" not "how".

yourself

 

[Exiledoomsayer]

At least we come to a point to where we now our limitations on reality is and the perspective on our point of views, but rationally someone had to do it!

This, makes no sense. Try again.
You do not know your limitations on reality just because you made something up.
Its like saying "Scrooch mc duck has the most money" somehow tells us something about the limitations of reality, it doesnt make any sense because its something we just made up without any reason to treat it seriously.

We can't say where God comes from, but that in itself makes Him God now doesn't?

We can't say where the universe comes from, but that in itself makes it the universe now doesn't it?

I can make up random statements of fact too.
God is not god because we dont know where he came from. He's god because he says he's god. If we knew for example that god came from an egg that would not lessen the fact he was god.

Otherwise you are the God of your world, except for the boundary's to which your limited to...... the worlds play pen!

Im fairly sure you do not know what the concept "god of your world" means.
I am starting to suspect your just randomly spouting out whatever your pastor might have told you at some point without having a clear idea yourself why he said it or how to apply it.

 

[allhart]

How did the designer derive itself? The fact is, none of us know exactly how the universe began. The only difference between you and me is that I can admit there are gaps in my knowledge while you insist that an all-powerful force has communicated to you the intricate truths of the universe through a book written less than two thousand years ago from the collected verbal traditions of a bunch of arabs and translated several times to a language you can understand like a really big game of 'telephone' and also you are the one of the few people who really understands what the all-powerful intelligent force wants you to do, unlike all the billions of people in the world who believe in different APIFs or even the ones who believe in the same APIF but interpret its totally clear and understandable translated book in completely different ways from you.



The word you want is 'accept'. Not 'except'. Except means almost exactly the opposite of accept. In fact, to except something, if it could even be used as a verb (hint: that's an action word, which it isn't) would mean to exclude it. I'm not going to point out the dozens of errors in your posts because if you didn't learn this stuff by the age of 39 I figure there's not much that can be done, but you keep using this word over and over and it's taxing on the sanity of people who actually paid attention in English class.

I do hope you accept my advice.
[/rant]

Ya you keep building self worth up on the backs of others inadequacy. Which driven by your inadequacy of compassion, by not having the ability to walk in another mans shoes! Intellect doesn't come from or derive itself from Structured English. I recognize my inadequacy, but myself worth isn't driven from your opinions! The weaknesses I have made me a better person for it, a stronger person for it! I can see through people in-like yourself! All of us have inadequacy's and everyone's got some special gifts! Jesus also said the only ones that can see the need for God are the poor in spirit. To whom only God can fill the poor in need and they are the spiritual poor, lame and disabled! What is it to gain the whole world, but to lose your soul?(unknown)

 

[Ayersy]

Why you guys do. Ya'll jump from Orgin, to meaning ,to morality and destiny all day long Explain to us where our existence was derived from in a rational meaningful way? Without a designer? To say there's no synchronized thought behind your existence? Furthermore to which devalues your own worth!

Meaning isn't important, truth is important, that's all. To imply that there is more meaning in something than there really is is what's irrational. There's absolutely no evidence of there being a designer, and there is no synchronised thought behind our existence, we simply are. We know that much. To imply more, requires proof.

Worth doesn't matter, and to believe something just because it increases your own worth is foolish. Humans mean nothing, we don't really matter, and that's absolutely fine and dandy.

 

[Ayersy]

what if you couldnt

What if you were a banana?

 

[allhart]

What if you were a banana?

For I think for there I am Can you know you don't exist?

 

[Exiledoomsayer]

For I think for there I am Can you know you don't exist?

Sometimes, I create an imaginary character in my head that knows he is just my imagination, generally I use him to help me with my homework.

So I guess the answer to that is yes. Although perhaps you could argue that imagination is still existence?..nah.

 

[Ayersy]

For I think for there I am Can you know you don't exist?

"I think, therefore I am.", don't you mean?

Well, to be honest, we can't even be certain we, as humans, exist. Though really, it depends on your definition of existence.

As far as how humans perceive the physical world, though, I exist. I can be seen, touched, interacted with and tested in a scientific setting.

I affect the world around me, and the world affects me. So, unless we're in the Matrix, or I'm kinda like Tyler Durden, then it's pretty safe to assume I exist.

 

[Verv]

Is it moral to deal with something at the end when you have the power to deal with it now and instead choose not to? Especially if by dealing with it now you could alleviate suffering in the future?

I don't think so.

I fail to see the relevance. Are you saying that God's creation of this arena and all things in it and all the harm that follows is justified by a later reward in heaven?

Sounds a little like [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] fighting.

Actually, this is how many parents raise their children. You let them make mistakes to learn lessons.

You got to let your 15 or 16 year old kid go out to their friends house to stay out over night. They might be smart enough to not do heroin but surely one day you very well may get a call from the police that your kid was caught drunk down by the river, or they come home with a black eye or something.

You could have prevented it, theoretically, by always watching over them and interfering... Especially if you were omnipotent and omniscient.

However, what would they have learned?

You learn partly by making mistakes and partly by observing mistakes.

The best way to learn why things like fighting are wrong is to do them. The best way to get a taste of why drug addiction and other addictions are wrong is to spend a few nights in a row binge drinking.

When we see the examples of people getting diseases and dying we can also learn from their mistakes.

God will judge as how He sees fit and we will get whatever judgment that He passes down, whether it is an extended period in purgatory or whatever it is He decides. I really cannot claim to know how things are judged other than what is put out in the Bible and to be honest the Bible is incredibly vague on it.

Here is a question, isn't human morality, if there is no God, based solely on our own concept of observation and learning lessons about right and wrong based on judging the results of what happens by our actions?

In a way we really are fulfilling God's plan even if we are atheists or agnostics because we are using a similar means to make what generally are similar conclusions.

Of course, there are some extremists here who come to very strange conclusions, but generally speaking, the morality of all healthy societies are very similar.

 

[Ringo84]

Why don't you ask them?
Ringo

 

[Eudaimonist]

How did matter derive itself without a designer?

How did God derive itself without a meta-God to design him?

Where does energy come from? Where does or did the basic building blocks to all matter derive itself..... where did it come from? Don't tell me it just was and it just is that it always existed? Then I will have to say we can't have a meaningful rational discussion! Talking irrationally about something that came from nothing or it all ways just was!

Where does God come from?..... Don't tell me God just was and it just is that God always existed? Then I will have to say we can't have a meaningful rational discussion! Talking irrationally about something that came from nothing or it all ways just was!

Is this a fair statement?

Can't know meaning, morality and destiny if you don't know where you come from.

As far as I can tell, origins are irrelevant to morality and meaning. What we ought to do depends on what we are, not where we came from. Finding meaning in origins is a specifically Christian way of looking at the issue, and not one that others need share.

Did you verfiy that water boils at 212F

Actually, yes! Personally. However, I did not need to, since I know how it was verified, and that is has been verified.

By who's authority do except all proclamations, by the authority given, right?

"Who" isn't important. "How" is what matters. And even "authorities" can be mistaken.

Well when you want to find out about God you go to the authority to whom knows, scholars and the evidence ,right?

Assuming that I agree that their methods are capable of justifying their conclusions, then yes.

It doesn't always work that way. If I want to know if tea leaf readings really predict someone's future, I don't go to tea leaf readers and ask them their opinion. I examine research performed under carefully controlled scientific conditions.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Jade Margery]

Ya you keep building self worth up on the backs of others inadequacy. Which driven by your inadequacy of compassion, by not having the ability to walk in another mans shoes! Intellect doesn't come from or derive itself from Structured English.

Nope, but it sure is a good indication of it.

I recognize my inadequacy, but myself worth isn't driven from your opinions!

Hence the rant-like response. That makes perfect sense.

The weaknesses I have made me a better person for it, a stronger person for it! I can see through people in-like yourself! All of us have inadequacy's and everyone's got some special gifts! Jesus also said the only ones that can see the need for God are the poor in spirit. To whom only God can fill the poor in need and they are the spiritual poor, lame and disabled! What is it to gain the whole world, but to lose your soul?(unknown)

I have no idea what you're talking about. (But I probably would if you used complete sentences. )

The dodged question still stands: How did the designer derive itself?

To say that it gives us a point of limit to our knowledge only leaves you in the same place as the rest of us. We don't know how the universe began. You don't know how god began. Why is what we don't know any less rational than what you don't know?