Do aborted babies go to heaven?

[Albion]

WE are not in wombs. Thank you very much.

Nope, but unborn babies are.

There is no personal existence, no existence of a person there

That's your own opinion. But we do have God's opinion on record. That's the point of this little exchange.

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

"That Holy One." You forgot that part.

Christ was Holy - imagine that!

"... that Holy One who is to be ...", please note that.

Actually it's a bit interesting that my Bible says, "...that holy thing ..." Certainly not referring to some unborn person.
But the point is, "shall be born" and "shall be called." GOD KNOWETH ALL.

 

[redleghunter]

Christ was Holy - imagine that!

"... that Holy One who is to be ...", please note that.

Actually it's a bit interesting that my Bible says, "...that holy thing ..." Certainly not referring to some unborn person.
But the point is, "shall be born" and "shall be called." GOD KNOWETH ALL.

Is it your position the Christ was not Holy physically developing in the womb?

 

[PapaZoom]

I am not sure if unborn babies have souls. There seems to be a connection in scripture between our own spirit/soul and breath, and so it's entirely possible humans do not receive a spirit until their first breath.

"breath of life" is a metaphor

 

[SnowyMacie]

"breath of life" is a metaphor

I don't believe so. The Hebrew word for spirit, ruah, is the same as their word for breath, and it's the same in Greek, "pneuma". Scripture says that when God takes away the ruah, the breath, they die, but when God sends the ruah, the spirit, they are created. The Divine breath or spirit is flowing through us all, and as Christians is also dwelling inside of us. When a child is born, the first thing it has to do is breathe, and when you die, the last thing you do is breathe out one last time. The breath of life is a very real thing.

 

[PapaZoom]

I don't believe so. The Hebrew word for spirit, ruah, is the same as their word for breath, and it's the same in Greek, "pneuma". Scripture says that when God takes away the ruah, the breath, they die, but when God sends the ruah, the spirit, they are created. The Divine breath or spirit is flowing through us all, and as Christians is also dwelling inside of us. When a child is born, the first thing it has to do is breathe, and when you die, the last thing you do is breathe out one last time. The breath of life is a very real thing.

yeah, cuz we need oxygen to live. We need "breath" to take in the life sustaining oxygen. This a baby does via the mother. But a baby couldn't survive without oxygen. It's fully alive and fully human. It doesn't receive its first breath and become alive then.

In Adam's case, he was created by God from the dust. Then God "breathed" into Adam the breath of life.

But God doesn't breath like we do. He has no need of oxygen as He is self-sustaining. So it isn't breath as in air that is being considered here, but the creation of a living soul.

Adam was the first human and his creation is NOT representative of how the rest of us come into being. God breathing the breath of life into Adam refers to his immaterial part. As God lives as a spirit being, he imparted that aspect unto us through Adam.

It does not take actually breathing oxygen for a human to become a living being (fully body, mind, and spirit).

 

[civilwarbuff]

Simon Crosby said: ↑
So, do you then deny that our Lord was God incarnate in the womb? Did he become Incarnate at his birth, instead of at the annunciation?

Bumped it over to me, I suppose.

"Incarnation" means became a human being. God became a human being at the birth of Jesus. (Why we so much celebrate that, of course!)
If some particular church gets things about the annunciation wrong, hopefully they will correct their teaching.

So, Jesus only became God at birth? if so, that seems to be discounting the role of the Holy Spirit (God) in the conception and possibly implying/attributing it to man. Would that be a reasonably accurate accounting of your position?

 

[PapaZoom]

Douglas Hendrickson said: ↑
There are no "hes" in a womb. Ever.

What I was trying to indicate is that the term "he" (or "she," but "he" was used) is never appropriate re womb contents since there is never a person there to whom such a term would correctly apply.

personhood is a metaphysical construction and is determined not by objective measures but by subjective arguments

 

[civilwarbuff]

Christ was Holy - imagine that!

"... that Holy One who is to be ...", please note that.

Actually it's a bit interesting that my Bible says, "...that holy thing ..." Certainly not referring to some unborn person.
But the point is, "shall be born" and "shall be called." GOD KNOWETH ALL.

What translation are you using?

 

[PapaZoom]

OF COURSE it is not the case that something not living can have heartbeats. (And of course I never said it could.)

If you want to discuss reasonably you might quote me, you might respond to what I actually say.

Fetuses (to NOT BEG THE QUESTION of the human being nature of what is in a womb), fetuses, or to be equally neutral, the contents of a gestating womb, a lot of the time have heartbeats, though not early on of course when there is nothing that might be called a heart.

I would never say what is in the gestating womb is not alive (unless it has died, of course). So I certainly never say the contradiction of something not living having heartbeats.

But please note that to say it is alive is not to prove it is a human being that should be protected from destruction - it is only to notice that it is like unto a cancer tumor in that it consists of alive cells. That's what it means to be "alive," nothing more.
Mice have heartbeats, but should we outlaw cats on that basis?
Better never step on an ant?

Note to David ("Saint Worm"),
it may be seen how much clarification of basic understanding is needed in some cases. Do you not agree?

We all consist of alive cells.

 

[PapaZoom]

Hi Douglas, your mind may have trouble with it, but God doesn't seem to. Here are a few examples, from Genesis to Revelation:

11 The angel of the LORD said to her further,
“Behold, you are with child,
And you will bear a son;
And you shall call his name Ishmael,
Because the LORD has given heed to your affliction.
12 “He will be a wild donkey of a man,
His hand will be against everyone,
And everyone’s hand will be against him;
And he will live to the east of all his brothers.” ~Gen 16


"Both the daughters of Lot were with child by their father." ~Gen 19:36


22 “If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide.
23 “But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life,
24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. ~Ex 21`


“Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel." ~Is 7:14


18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.
19 And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly.
20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
21 “She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
22 Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet:
23 “BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD WITH US.” ~Matt 1


"She was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth." ~Rev 12:2
​

Yours and His,
David

You are correct in your thinking on this. Thanks for spending time responding to this issue.

 

[PapaZoom]

I certainly didn't "clarify" that way - a non-quote misquote misrepresentation.

I think it does indicate you see the light - that your pointing out that "a mouse is not a human" is pretty inane, though you would never admit it directly of course.

Your "when a human heart beats it is human" (misrepresentation of what I said) shows a fairly common inability to notice the difference between "human" and "a human." What you say indicates a bit of grammatical knowledge of how an adjective is used - that "human" can be correctly used to modify "heartbeats" (CodyFaith's word, and not yours).

He, for your information, was talking about "a human"; a heart can be human without being a human (being), in fact a human heart never is a human being of course.

There's far more to this argument than a beating heart. The arguments favor the pro-life side by a long way.

 

[PapaZoom]

I am no abortion, thank you very much.

That is not an answer. You are a Christian. So how is it you justify the killing of unborn human beings in the womb?

 

[PapaZoom]

WE are not in wombs. Thank you very much.
There is no personal existence, no existence of a person there - we exist as real people and know we came from somewhere - namely were formed in wombs. Please note that does NOT mean we existed before we were made.

The Bible says at least one person was known even before being made in the womb - GOD KNOWETH ALL THINGS, PAST AND FUTURE. He knows where we come from and that we will come into existence even before we do.

What brought you to this conclusion?

 

[PapaZoom]

Jeremiah 1:5New International Version (NIV)

5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

 

[redleghunter]

We all consist of alive cells.

You giving 5th grade science lessons again? Sorry you have to do that on a forum populated with adults.

 

[Root of Jesse]

This is a serious question I've been struggling with, do aborted babies go to heaven?

There should be not doubt that aborted babies, innocent as they are, go to heaven.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I am not sure if unborn babies have souls. There seems to be a connection in scripture between our own spirit/soul and breath, and so it's entirely possible humans do not receive a spirit until their first breath.

God told Jeremiah "Before you were in the womb, I knew you." That, to me, suggests that our souls are created before our physical bodies.

 

[Root of Jesse]

The Bible never says one way or the other. We do know we are all conceived in sin from Adam. Most arguments I have heard that say all aborted babies go to heaven are based on emotion rather than what is found in the Bible. I am not saying they all go to hell, I am saying the Bible doesn't tell us, so we can't say.

Do you believe our God is a merciful God?

 

[Root of Jesse]

"Since" means "since," NOT during.

There are no "hes" in a womb. Ever. What "the babe leaped" means is the usual quickening or movements of ALIVE - yes you are correct in that - fleshly parts responding to their environment, a phenomenon often experienced in late pregnancy. Nothing more, except that the "leaping" (so called) brought joy to Elizabeth, she it says was filled with the Holy Ghost.
I guess if "filled" means totally filled, then any filling in her womb might be considered to be likewise filled, but not in any way different than the way any other flesh of her body might have been filled.
It is referred to as a "babe" because after six months she was noticing it (including the "leaping" or "kicking" - certainly NOT like the poor man crippled from birth who actually lept when Jesus healed him), and MUCH ANTICIPATING, she had been barren all those years, seen as somewhat a curse in that society, so looking forward to actually having a baby she referred to what the angel promised would be a special son as a "babe" or "baby" when it had not yet been born.
All the bits about "sensed Jesus's presence and couldn't contain his excitement" are your construction, NOT BIBLICAL.

Where do you get your bible interpretation?