Divine punishment? Is it needed?

[Fervent]

Punished on account of continual unbelief. Do you feel that’s an answer more grounded in philosophy and good sense, or in a thorough reading of the biblical material?

I think it can be solidly grounded in each, though I came to it through thoroughly studying what the Bible said about atonement due to personal objections to penal substitution.

 

[Clare73]

Where is it specifically written that man has no ability to remain sinless? I could be wrong but I think that is what Calvinist believe by cobbling together disparate scriptures.

Sinless being in thought, word and deed. . .

Where is it specifically written that anyone was or is sinless other than Christ?

 

[Clare73]

Sometimes those brute portraits are an example of debate strawmen, which most sensible people can’t agree with.

While other times it’s an example of moral outrage that Gods duration of punishing is said to be equal across the board, eternity.

How can God be a just judge while (presumably) punishing Jonny Depp for the same space of time as Amber Heard? Doesn’t He know how horrible Amber is? Didn’t He hear those internet audios?

Thieves and one time adulterers are very different from war criminals and serial child abusers, but to believe in forever punishment across the board makes God appear unwise, vindictive and out of touch. Equal times for unequal crimes.

Christians who believe in the classic doctrine of hellfire as eternal divine punishment can rein in the madness by imagining levels and differing severity to the torment, like in Dante’s inferno, but, to remain true to the classic view, there’s no skipping out on the punishing duration.

Punished on account of continual unbelief. Do you feel that’s an answer more grounded in philosophy and good sense, or in a thorough reading of the biblical material?

To whom are you responding?

 

[Cormack]

I think it can be solidly grounded in each, though I came to it through thoroughly studying what the Bible said about atonement due to personal objections to penal substitution.

Where do you think the scriptures most clearly explain the idea that part of mankind will remain under Gods judgment forever due to continued sinful unbelief? For continued unbelief and not on account of their temporal sins.

 

[Fervent]

Where do you think the scriptures most clearly explain the idea that part of mankind will remain under Gods judgment forever due to continued unbelief?

The book of Hebrews, specifically Hebrews 3:11-4:12. Of course, full treatment requires extensive exposition given the depth of dependence on the Old Testament and gaining a proper understanding of historic perspectives.

 

[Clare73]

I don't think the analogy of species being born of the same species works for being born sinners, but it doesn't matter.

If we are born sinners, how can we be punished by God for something, i.e. being born a sinner, we had no control over? That makes no sense.

One more time. . .it's not about making sense to you.
It's about God's purpose.

I may not be clever, but I get it when I hear something solid, such as the following:

Our thoughts are not God's thoughts, and God's ways are not our ways.
God's ways are unimaginably higher than our ways. (Isaiah 55:8-9)
But you set your way above God's way.

My lack of cleverness may seem an issue to you,
but your lack of apprehension of Isaiah 55:8-9 seems ever so much more an issue to me.

 

[Clare73]

Again, we had no control over Adam's failure.
How are we now responsible for an inability to remain sinless?

We are held responsible for Adam's sin (Romans 5:12-19) into which we are born as the progeny of Adam (Romans 5:18), because we agree with/approve of it, as demonstrated by our continuance to also sin (principle of Luke 11:47-51), but are not responsible for the sinful nature we inherited from him and are stuck with.

 

[Hmm]

Holy Saturday?

Yes, it is Holy Saturday but name I was trying to recall was Bright Saturday, as Andrew reminded me:

Yes, you have a good memory. It is called Bright Saturday. And it is on Bright / Holy Saturday that the Lord, by the Spirit, "descended to those in darkness and death that light might shine on them and that He might deliver them from death."

The quotation is from footnotes of The Orthodox Study Bible.

It would be great if that name caught on in the west.

 

[Andrewn]

It would be great if that name caught on in the west.

The name has theological significance as it indicates belief in the Harrowing of Hell.

BTW, I'm currently reading a book about this subject titled "Christ The Conqueror of Hell" by Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev. It reviews patristic writings about the subject and the different interpretations of the relevant NT passages.

A very interesting book.

 

[Hmm]

The name has theological significance as it indicates belief in the Harrowing of Hell.

BTW, I'm currently reading a book about this subject titled "Christ The Conqueror of Hell" by Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev. It reviews patristic writings about the subject and the different interpretations of the relevant NT passages.

A very interesting book.

It sounds good. I increasing appreciate the view of Orthodoxy. There are clearly many insights such as about the Harrowing of Hell that we've completely lost sight of in all the wildly divergent Protestant traditions.

 

[sawdust]

This is not what the Bible says:

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. (This lake of fire is the second death.) 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.

You should have read the verse before.

Rev.20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

 

[sawdust]

I've explained I don't take it as a literal lake of fire.

So, makes no difference? You said be like Christ. Well, Christ created the eternal "punishment". Maybe you are the one who needs to be more like Christ and refuse to have anything to do with evil. That's what the lake is for, eternal separation.

 

[sawdust]

Christ's atonement is applied only by faith in it (Romans 3:25).

It is their unbelief that sends them to hell with their sin unforgiven.

Prophetic riddles must not be interpreted contrary to NT apostolic teaching.

Receiving Christ's atonement is applied by grace through faith. The sins of unbelievers are forgiven as much as believers sins. He is "the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world", not just the sin of believers. Unbelievers never know forgiveness because they reject Christ where all forgiveness resides.

This is why even believers must confess their sin (1Jn.1:9) because when they are out of fellowship with Christ, they are effectively standing in the place of unforgiveness.

Has nothing to do with "prophetic riddles", it's just simple common sense. If Christ is the One who has taken all sin upon Himself (and He has) then all forgiveness rests in Him.

 

[sawdust]

Still, they burn like dogs. Therefore, you see your fellows as dogs.

Dogs don't burn as they are not accountable. And I don't see people as dogs. I simply don't associate with evil people just like Christ. Thankfully I haven't met that many evil people.


Matthew 7:23
Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!

 

[Saint Steven]

I like it. This makes sense. If you don't mind my asking, how does the work of Christ fit into this. I ask myself the same question, but I'm curious how you might frame it.

In terms of universal salvation, the "work" has already been done. The work of the cross was sufficient. So, basically everyone is saved, we just need to be readied to enter. (or exit the age, is another way to look at it) Every knee will bow and every tongue joyfully acknowledge that Jesus is Lord.

My explanation was very simplified. I think there will be a lot of layers in what actually happens. The books will be opened, and accounts settled. Anyone not found in the book of life will need special attention.

Although I often think that the "religious" folks will need MORE work than the non-religious. As Jesus told the religious folks of his day, The prostitutes and tax collectors (traitors) are entering the kingdom before you.

 

[Saint Steven]

If you don't mind my asking, how does the work of Christ fit into this.

I should add that the work will probably be individualized like when he walked the earth.

I imagine the Bible-thumpers arguing chapter and verse with him while he helps to straighten them out. - lol

 

[Clare73]

Receiving Christ's atonement is applied by grace through faith.
The sins of unbelievers are forgiven as much as believers sins.

Not according to God's OT pattern of NT forgiveness in the sacrifices.

In the OT, there was no cleansing (forgiveness) of sin where the blood was not applied by hyssop.

In the NT, there is no forgiveness (cleansing) of sin where the blood is not applied by faith.

The sin of unbelievers is not forgiven as much as the sin of believers.

He is "the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world", not just the sin of believers.

"World" being Gentiles as well as Jews, and not just Jacob's descendants.

Unbelievers never know forgiveness because they reject Christ where all forgiveness resides.

Unbelievers never know forgiveness because they do not apply the blood by faith.

This is why even believers must confess their sin (1Jn.1:9) because when they are out of fellowship with Christ, they are effectively standing in the place of unforgiveness.

To be out of fellowship with Christ is not standing in the place of unforgiveness, from which they were forever removed by the new birth and faith.
Believers confess (agree with God about) their sin and turn from it (repent) to restore fellowship with God, not to restore salvation.

Has nothing to do with "prophetic riddles", it's just simple common sense. If Christ is the One who has taken all sin upon Himself (and He has) then all forgiveness rests in Him.

Your "common sense" is based on your interpretation of prophetic riddles in Revelation,
which "common sense" is in disagreement with several points of NT apostolic teaching.

 

[sawdust]

Not according to God's OT pattern of NT forgiveness in the sacrifices.

In the OT, there was no cleansing (forgiveness) of sin where the blood was not applied by hyssop.

In the NT, there is no forgiveness (cleansing) of sin where the blood is not applied by faith.

The sin of unbelievers is not forgiven as much as the sin of believers.

"World" being Gentiles as well as Jews, and not just Jacob's descendants.

Unbelievers never know forgiveness because they do not apply the blood by faith.

To be out of fellowship with Christ is not standing in the place of unforgiveness, from which they were forever removed by the new birth and faith.
Believers confess (agree with God about) their sin and turn from it (repent) to restore fellowship with God, not to restore salvation.

Your "common sense" is based on your interpretation of prophetic riddles in Revelation,
which "common sense" is in disagreement with several points of NT apostolic teaching.

I'm not going to argue with you. Half the time you say the exact same thing I'm saying but use a different language and yet suggest your right and I'm wrong. At least, that is how you come across.

I said when we (believers) sin we "effectively" (eg. as if) stand in the place of unforgivenness. I said nothing about losing one's salvation. 1 Jn.1:9 says nothing about repenting so you are adding to God's word. God is faithful and just to forgive us because Christ has paid for all sin. He restores us to fellowship where we experience His forgiveness because all forgiveness is in Christ. Anyone who rejects Christ will never know forgiveness but that doesn't mean their sin is not forgiven. If it wasn't so, the scripture could not say "whosoever" believes. (Jn.3:16) The barrier of sin would still be in place and no-one could come to Christ. It is because He has taken the sin of the world (which means any and every one who has or will be born) that we can know forgiveness.

I've already explained my understanding is based on the fact that Christ is the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world so why you need to denigrate my common sense, is beyond me. Try reading again what I said:

If Christ is the One who has taken all sin upon Himself (and He has) then all forgiveness rests in Him.

How you align such a statement with "prophetic riddles in Revelation" is pure imagination on your part.

You need to stop confusing what God has done in Christ (forgiven all sin) and what we receive, or fail to receive, in our response to Christ. Respond positively and know forgiveness, respond negatively and never know forgiveness. Our response does not alter what God has done in Christ.

 

[Clare73]

I'm not going to argue with you. Half the time you say the exact same thing I'm saying but use a different language and yet suggest your right and I'm wrong. At least, that is how you come across.

I said when we (believers) sin we "effectively" (eg. as if) stand in the place of unforgivenness. I said nothing about losing one's salvation.

However, the place of unforgiveness is damnation.

I'm trying to be clear for the sake of accuracy.
Inaccuracy can take one down some long rabbit trails to error.

 

[bling]

Would you say the fire of hell is retributive or cathartic?

The fires of hell do not do anything positive for the person going through them nor for God, who provides them.

They are there out of Love for those who still have the opportunity to choose of their own free will to humbly accept God’s pure charitable gifts as charitable gifts. It encourages some of these individuals to move quickly, than just wait.