Divine punishment? Is it needed?

[Fervent]

6) He will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap. (Malachi 3:2)

Rather odd that you cite a verse that asks "who can stand" as if it means that the individual's will be purified by the fire. It is the corporate body of the Sons of Levi that is purified, by the removal of those who are not true sons of Levi. A lot of universalism is built around misinterpreting passages that speak of corporate judgment where the stubble is individual people as being about individual judgment and assuming the stubble is character flaws.

 

[public hermit]

In the interest of staying as biblical as I can about what we don't know, I corral several elements from what we do know about it.
1) Jesus said everyone would be salted with fire.
2) Works are tested, and the wood, hay and stubble burns up.
4) Even those with no valuable works are saved.
5) There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (extreme emotional guilt)
6) He will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap. (Malachi 3:2)
7) There will be a day when God judges people’s secrets. (Romans 2:16)
8) Nations and leaders will be judged as well as individuals.

What this all boils down to for me, is an age where everything is set right. Everything and everyone held accountable. Nothing will be hidden, whether good or bad. Everyone will pass through the refining fire. And with this process complete restoration will come.

I like it. This makes sense. If you don't mind my asking, how does the work of Christ fit into this. I ask myself the same question, but I'm curious how you might frame it.

 

[Clare73]

That is a pitiful analogy and you know it. I'm surprised you would reach so far...for nothing.

So you don't think that was clever? < gasp! >

No one said I was clever (which is why I love it so much in others).

The issue is whether it is true or not, not whether it is clever or not.

Adam's progeny are born as condemned sinners, just like my puppies are born as four-legged dogs.

 

[public hermit]

You better not burn my dog!

No Ma'am, no animals were harmed. I love all dogs.

 

[public hermit]

The issue is whether it is true or not, not whether it is clever or not.

Adam's progeny are born sinners, just like my puppies are born dogs.

I don't think the analogy of species being born of the same species works for being born sinners, but it doesn't matter.

If we are born sinners, how can we be punished by God for something, i.e. being born a sinner, we had no control over? That makes no sense.

 

[Fervent]

I like it. This makes sense. If you don't mind my asking, how does the work of Christ fit into this. I ask myself the same question, but I'm curious how you might frame it.

Exactly the issue with universalism, salvation is no longer found through the cross since men pay the price of their own sins.

 

[public hermit]

Adam's progeny are born as condemned sinners, just like my puppies are born as four-legged dogs

Again, we had no control over Adam's failure. How are we now responsible for an inability to remain sinless?

 

[Clare73]

"Look, she's having a go at the puppies now!"

You can be really funny when you're up to it!
I've seen it. . ."and the curtains were new."

 

[public hermit]

Exactly the issue with universalism, salvation is no longer found through the cross since men pay the price of their own sins.

I have an answer (gave it earlier in the thread) but want to wait for his response.

 

[Clare73]

I've explained I don't take it as a literal lake of fire.

Nice dodge. . .NOT!

Well, whatever it is, it ain't meant to be good. . .so who created it?

 

[Fervent]

Again, we had no control over Adam's failure. How are we now responsible for an inability to remain sinless?

That's certainly a major issue in a lot of modern theology. They've become so concerned with man having no part in salvation that man has no part in salvation. He is condemned vicariously, on account of Adam, and he is redeemed vicariously, on account of Christ. It's quite the mockery.

 

[public hermit]

Nice dodge. . .not!

Well, whatever it is, it ain't meant to be good. . .so who created it?

It's an image, metaphor for being ill-prepared for the divine presence. It's painful but restorative. It's not a place or creation.

 

[Clare73]

@Andrewn This is off topic but I think it was you and it must be a year ago today, you said that Easter Saturday had a name that I remember finding endearing and it was a day that Jesus did something rather than just waiting to be resurrected. Was it the Harrowing of Hell? Do let me know if you remember...

Holy Saturday?

 

[Fervent]

I have an answer (gave it earlier in the thread) but want to wait for his response.

Mind saying what post?

And whether you've come up with an answer or not, the fact that it takes some kind of ingenius solution to work Christ into the scheme is rather troubling. Christ's work is the centerpoint, the fulcrum upon which all of Christianity turns and must be the chief cornerstone of any atonement theology. In universalism Christ's work is rendered to an auxilary, with the central atonement coming through the refining work of God's presence.

 

[Der Alte]

I am curious of any doctrines about divine punishment, specifically as related to the afterlife, but in general, too.
I'll throw out a couple.
Anselm: Anselm argues the sin is not only disobedience, but it also dishonors God. Sin, therefore, incurs a double debt (disobedience and dishonor) that one must repay or for which one must be punished. He explains why punishment is needed. Punishment subjects the human creature, thereby putting them back in their place, which restores God's honor. So, punishment restores God's honor.
Calvin: Calvin, ever the lawyer, said sin makes us criminals, essentially. Criminals must be punished. Sin incurs divine wrath, therefore, God must punish us. Of course, God punishes Jesus in our place so we don't have to be punished. He, too, will talk about punishment putting us back in our proper place.
Is that what divine punishment does? Is it a release valve for divine wrath? Does punishment restore God's honor? Are there any better ideas out there of what punishment is or does? Is divine punishment necessary? If so, why?
(The poll specifically concerns unrepentant sin at death so we can avoid wasting time getting to the point)

God said divine punishment was necessary. God said it. I believe it. That settles it. Some folks may want to argue with God. I don't.

 

[Clare73]

Again, we had no control over Adam's failure. How are we now responsible for an inability to remain sinless?

Let's prosecute my "pitiful analogy."

Again, the puppy had no control over his mother being a dog.

How are the puppies responsible for chewing my furniture instead of acting like rabbits?

 

[Der Alte]

Again, we had no control over Adam's failure. How are we now responsible for an inability to remain sinless?

Where is it specifically written that man has no ability to remain sinless? I could be wrong but I think that is what Calvinist believe by cobbling together disparate scriptures.

 

[Cormack]

As one who for many years held to a view of ECT I never found the argument convincing because the punishment is on account of a continuing unbelief, not a temporal sin.

Punished on account of continual unbelief. Do you feel that’s an answer more grounded in philosophy and good sense, or in a thorough reading of the biblical material?

 

[Clare73]

It's an image, metaphor for being ill-prepared for the divine presence. It's painful but restorative. It's not a place or creation.

Your pitiful metaphor enjoys no more reality than my pitiful analogy.

 

[Fervent]

Where is it specifically written that man has no ability to remain sinless? I could be wrong but I think that is what Calvinist believe by cobbling together disparate scriptures.

It's not just Calvinists, to forward the notion that a man can be perfect apart from Christ is pelagianism. That is, of course, not to say that man is helplessly bound by some "sin nature." Of course, universalism is in many ways an extension of Calvinism in that it makes the exact same error in logic of believing God would never willingly subvert His will so if He desires something it must occur.