Divine punishment? Is it needed?

[wendykvw]

Some truth here, but not quite. Christus Victor isn't exactly an atonement theory but more a motif under which an ecclectic grouping of theories are held with the primary theory being ransom theory. Penal substitution, in spite of its name, is a satisfaction theory in which the death of Christ produced a change in God by satisfying the demands of some aspect of His being(in Penal sub this aspect is God's wrath).

As for "the early Christian Universalist" that is largely a recent myth and misunderstanding of the notion of apocatastasis through an enlightenment mindset rather than rectifying it to the ideals of the ancient writers. In short, the principal difference is the dichotomy between corporate and individual between the two. In the ancients, humanity as a corporate entity was completely saved even if individuals who were once human find themselves damned as the will and a persons humanity were seen as seperable. Modern universalism makes no such distinction, and so denies the reality of hell as an eternal decree(regardless of form). The only ancient who may have approached a modern formulation is Origen, though the works in which this is claimed are dubious whether he authored them. There's also the complicating factor of the fact that Origen was anathematized, and it is possible that his brand of universalism was also specifically anathematized( Origen's anathema is almost certain, the doctrine is questionable).

The Christus Victor is part of the atonement debate. "The Christus Vitor view of the atonement was the dominant view in the church until the 11th century when Anselm's satisfaction view became popular. The antiquity of this perspective in its favor. "( The Aontment debate ) "Across the Spectrum" pg. 123

There is much misinformation about Origen. I highly recommend the book " A Larger Hope by by Ilaria L. E. Ramelli "

"In the minds of some, universal salvation is a heretical idea that was imported into Christianity from pagan philosophies by Origen (c.185–253/4). Ilaria Ramelli argues that this picture is completely mistaken. She maintains that Christian theologians were the first people to proclaim that all will be saved and that their reasons for doing so were rooted in their faith in Christ. She demonstrates that, in fact, the idea of the final restoration of all creation (apokatastasis) was grounded upon the teachings of the Bible and the church’s beliefs about Jesus’ total triumph over sin, death, and evil through his incarnation, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension.

Ramelli traces the Christian roots of Origen’s teaching on apokatastasis. She argues that he was drawing on texts from Scripture and from various Christians who preceded him, theologians such as Bardaisan, Irenaeus, and Clement. She outlines Origen’s often-misunderstood theology in some detail and then follows the legacy of his Christian universalism through the centuries that followed. We are treated to explorations of Origenian universal salvation in a host of Christian disciples, including Athanasius, Didymus the Blind, the Cappadocian fathers, Evagrius, Maximus the Confessor, John Scotus Eriugena, and Julian of Norwich."

Link https://www.amazon.com/Larger-Hope-...=patristic+universalism&qid=1650080634&sr=8-8

 

[Fervent]

The Christus Victor is part of the atonement debate. "The Christus Vitor view of the atonement was the dominant view of the atonement in the church until the 11th century when Anselm's satisfaction view became popular. The antiquity of this perspective in its favor. "( The Aontment debate ) "Across the Spectrum" pg. 123

There is much misinformation about Origen. I highly recommend the book " A Larger Hope by by Ilaria L. E. Ramelli "

"In the minds of some, universal salvation is a heretical idea that was imported into Christianity from pagan philosophies by Origen (c.185–253/4). Ilaria Ramelli argues that this picture is completely mistaken. She maintains that Christian theologians were the first people to proclaim that all will be saved and that their reasons for doing so were rooted in their faith in Christ. She demonstrates that, in fact, the idea of the final restoration of all creation (apokatastasis) was grounded upon the teachings of the Bible and the church’s beliefs about Jesus’ total triumph over sin, death, and evil through his incarnation, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension.

Ramelli traces the Christian roots of Origen’s teaching on apokatastasis. She argues that he was drawing on texts from Scripture and from various Christians who preceded him, theologians such as Bardaisan, Irenaeus, and Clement. She outlines Origen’s often-misunderstood theology in some detail and then follows the legacy of his Christian universalism through the centuries that followed. We are treated to explorations of Origenian universal salvation in a host of Christian disciples, including Athanasius, Didymus the Blind, the Cappadocian fathers, Evagrius, Maximus the Confessor, John Scotus Eriugena, and Julian of Norwich."

Link https://www.amazon.com/Larger-Hope-...=patristic+universalism&qid=1650080634&sr=8-8

Christus victor is certainly part of the atonement discussion, but it's not a theory proper it's more of a word picture that relies on ransom theory as its basic explanation.

As for Ramelli...she's very much a motivated thinker, often distorting the things she quotes to fit her arguments rather than bringing out what is in the documents she's working with. It's quite common for supplying a line before or after within the document she's working with to completely destroy the point she is forwarding in her quote. She appears to be more interested in providing an apologetic for universalism than generating solid scholarly works.

 

[public hermit]

According to Romans 5:18. . .

Just like the progeny of my puppy are puppies before even being conceived.

That is a pitiful analogy and you know it. I'm surprised you would reach so far...for nothing.

 

[Cormack]

It's rather strange how often people believe they're magnifying God by portraying Him as a brute that can't distinguish severity of punishment.

Sometimes those brute portraits are an example of debate strawmen, which most sensible people can’t agree with.

While other times it’s an example of moral outrage that Gods duration of punishing is said to be equal across the board, eternity.

How can God be a just judge while (presumably) punishing Jonny Depp for the same space of time as Amber Heard? Doesn’t He know how horrible Amber is? Didn’t He hear those internet audios?

Thieves and one time adulterers are very different from war criminals and serial child abusers, but to believe in forever punishment across the board makes God appear unwise, vindictive and out of touch. Equal times for unequal crimes.

Christians who believe in the classic doctrine of hellfire as eternal divine punishment can rein in the madness by imagining levels and differing severity to the torment, like in Dante’s inferno, but, to remain true to the classic view, there’s no skipping out on the punishing duration.

 

[Hmm]

Just like the progeny of my puppy are puppies before even being conceived

"Look, she's having a go at the puppies now!"

 

[Hmm]

The point is that if we do not remain in Christ we don't belong to Him. This remains true whether you believe that people get a 2nd chance in hell or not.

Ah, I misunderstood.you, sorry.

 

[sawdust]

Still, they burn like dogs. Therefore, you see your fellows as dogs. Prick, don't be sorry. Rise up above and be like Christ.

LOL Who do you think created the lake of fire?

 

[public hermit]

LOL Who do you think created the lake of fire?

I've explained I don't take it as a literal lake of fire.

 

[Andrewn]

Death is emptied before it is thrown into hell (aka lake of fire) so even unbelievers are released before the final judgement

This is not what the Bible says:

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. (This lake of fire is the second death.) 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.

I've explained I don't take it as a literal lake of fire.

It certainly is not literal. The question is what does it indicate (probably there is no answer to this). The other question (more important) is whether it is after the Last / Final Judgment, meaning that there is no out of it.

 

[hedrick]

This is not what the Bible says:

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. (This lake of fire is the second death.) 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.


It certainly is not literal. The question is what does it indicate (probably there is no answer to this). The other question (more important) is whether it is after the Last / Final Judgment, meaning that there is no out of it.

Death is an abstract. Hades is a place. Neither of them can meaningfully be tormented. That seems to imply that the lake is destruction. The term second death also seems to imply that.

 

[Saint Steven]

Aquinas has that lame argument that sin against God is infinite and deserves infinite punishment. Obviously, God can't handle it and must take it out on God's own creation. Strange.

Yes. Strange indeed.

An attempt to explain why an infinite punishment for a finite being would be justice.

Even multiple life sentences here on earth come nowhere close to the atrocity God is being saddled with by ECT. (as "punishment")

And to what end?

Even here on earth the prisons are a part of the correctional system. A reformed prisoner can be paroled. But no hope of escape in the standard understanding of hell. No purpose but endless suffering.

The sin problem is relegated to the basement dungeon to be forgotten about. Nothing resolved. Madness.

 

[Hmm]

@Andrewn This is off topic but I think it was you and it must be a year ago today, you said that Easter Saturday had a name that I remember finding endearing and it was a day that Jesus did something rather than just waiting to be resurrected. Was it the Harrowing of Hell? Do let me know if you remember...

 

[Andrewn]

@Andrewn This is off topic but I think it was you and it must be a year ago today, you said that Easter Saturday had a name that I remember finding endearing and it was a day that Jesus did something rather than just waiting to be resurrected. Was it the Harrowing of Hell? Do let me know if you remember...

Yes, you have a good memory. It is called Bright Saturday. And it is on Bright / Holy Saturday that the Lord, by the Spirit, "descended to those in darkness and death that light might shine on them and that He might deliver them from death."

The quotation is from footnotes of The Orthodox Study Bible.

 

[Hmm]

Yes, you have a good memory. It is called Bright Saturday. And it is on Bright / Holy Saturday that the Lord, by the Spirit, "descended to those in darkness and death that light might shine on them and that He might deliver them from death."

The quotation is from footnotes of The Orthodox Study Bible.

Yes, that's it, Bright Saturday. Thanks for replying. I'll ask you again next year!

 

[Fervent]

Sometimes those brute portraits are an example of debate strawmen, which most sensible people can’t agree with.

While other times it’s an example of moral outrage that Gods duration of punishing is said to be equal across the board, eternity.

How can God be a just judge while (presumably) punishing Jonny Depp for the same space of time as Amber Heard? Doesn’t He know how horrible Amber is? Didn’t He hear those internet audios?

Thieves and one time adulterers are very different from war criminals and serial child abusers, but to believe in forever punishment across the board makes God appear unwise, vindictive and out of touch. Equal times for unequal crimes.

Christians who believe in the classic doctrine of hellfire as eternal divine punishment can rein in the madness by imagining levels and differing severity to the torment, like in Dante’s inferno, but, to remain true to the classic view, there’s no skipping out on the punishing duration.

Yes, certainly, there is often an argument that finite crimes deserve finite punishments so eternal punishment for sin is unjust.

As one who for many years held to a view of ECT I never found the argument convincing because the punishment is on account of a continuing unbelief, not a temporal sin. It seems to me that the Bible teaches Jesus' atonement completely took care of the issue of sin as condemning, yet did not remove the condemning value of unbelief and those in hell do not simply reject God once but do so eternally.

 

[Clare73]

I'm tracking that hope. It's hard to find these days amongst all these tru believers.

It resides in the nature of Christ's atoning work, regardless of anything else.

 

[Clare73]

That might be because people tend to think sinners go to hell. Sinners are bound to death. Death is emptied before it is thrown into hell (aka lake of fire) so even unbelievers are released before the final judgement and they're not judged for their sin because Christ was, so it isn't sin that sends them to hell. Rev.20:13&14

Christ's atonement is applied only by faith in it (Romans 3:25).

It is their unbelief that sends them to hell with their sin unforgiven.

Prophetic riddles must not be interpreted contrary to NT apostolic teaching.

 

[Saint Steven]

What do you think the mechanism of correction is?

In the interest of staying as biblical as I can about what we don't know, I corral several elements from what we do know about it.
1) Jesus said everyone would be salted with fire.
2) Works are tested, and the wood, hay and stubble burns up.
4) Even those with no valuable works are saved.
5) There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (extreme emotional guilt)
6) He will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap. (Malachi 3:2)
7) There will be a day when God judges people’s secrets. (Romans 2:16)
8) Nations and leaders will be judged as well as individuals.

What this all boils down to for me, is an age where everything is set right. Everything and everyone held accountable. Nothing will be hidden, whether good or bad. Everyone will pass through the refining fire. And with this process complete restoration will come.

 

[Clare73]

Still, they burn like dogs. Therefore, you see your fellows as dogs.

You better not burn my dog!

The NT presents unbelievers as swine, as well as dogs.

 

[Clare73]

Christianity has four different views concerning what Christ's death on the cross accomplished. The most widely held view among Protestants is the Penal Substitution View. Other views are the Moral Government View, Christus Victor (Christ is victorious), and the Kaleidoscope View.

Generally, those with the substitution view believe Christ took all the punishment and either you must "choose Him (Arminianism) or that God will choose who wishes to redeemed ( Calvinism).

1. In Calvinism, God will choose a few;
2. In Arminianism, a few will choose God.
3. The early Christian Universalist, God chooses everyone and everyone will choose God.

Universalists believe Christ is Victor (Christ is victorious). This view supports the biblical theme of Christ conquering Satanic authorities, removing their authority over any part of creation. What the devil destroyed is restored through the death and resurrection of Christ. Christ conquered and defeated death and in doing so provided the redemption of all people.

"Provided" and "received" are not the same thing.

While Salvation is secure and can never be revoked. One must make an effort to live by the principles of Christ. John 13:34