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Diversity of Baptists
- Thread starter Spirit of Pentecost
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twin1954
Baptist by the Bible
Election doesn’t keep anyone out of mercy through faith in Christ who wants it. The problem is that they don’t want it. Whosoever will may come. Every single person who comes to Christ seeking mercy finds it. Election is not salvation but unto salvation. Folks aren’t saved because they are elect, they are saved because they trust Christ alone.
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You didn't answer my question. Do YOU believe that God created "some" people predestined to hell? I'm sorry, but that IS what Calvinism teaches. Totally un-Biblical. According to Calvinism God preordained some to be saved, but also preordained some to be lost. I don't believe in a God who would send someone to hell without ever giving them the opportunity to choose Him. That would be like a parent never sending their child to school, never giving them an opportunity to learn, and then punishing them because they can't read or do math. How foolish and unfair. This is where I depart from the extremes of Calvinism. I do not believe God predestines certain people to Hell knowing He never gave them a chance to be saved to begin with.
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NO....you DID NOT answer my question.........let me repeat it once more.....
DO YOU BELIEVE GOD CREATED SOME PEOPLE PREDESTINED TO HELL???
That's a "yes" or "no" question, so is your answer "yes" or "no"?
DO YOU BELIEVE GOD CREATED SOME PEOPLE PREDESTINED TO HELL???
That's a "yes" or "no" question, so is your answer "yes" or "no"?
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Yes, I believe everyone deserves a chance....so does God.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Revelation 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Now, I've had Calvinists tell me that "any" meant just the elect,that "all" meant just the elect, that "whosoever" meant just the elect, and the "world" meant just the elect. How crazy is that?
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Revelation 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Now, I've had Calvinists tell me that "any" meant just the elect,that "all" meant just the elect, that "whosoever" meant just the elect, and the "world" meant just the elect. How crazy is that?
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twin1954
Baptist by the Bible
Your bolded part does not take into account the third grade English required to understand the verse. Also quoting this verse out of its context as to whom the letter is addressed and who Peter is speaking of makes your use of it nothing but a proof text. It is very poor hermeneutics at best and intentional deception at worst.
Did I not already quote your bolded part in my earlier response? Once again for you to throw it out as a proof text is irresponsible and ignores the teaching of the Scriptures as a whole. I am sure that you are capable of better.
Once more ignoring the context of the passage which clearly tells us of whom the Lord is speaking. He was talking to a Jew but not just any Jew but a Pharisee. The Jews hated Gentiles and considered themselves to be the people of God alone. The Lord was simply telling the Pharisee that God loves Gentiles as well as Jews.
Moreover I have already spoken of whosoever and explaned it clearly enough to be understood by a child.
Since you seem to want to ignore Scripture I ask that you show me one time in the Scriptures where the word “world” mean all people without exception. You simply cannot do it. Words have meaning according to their context.
I seriously doubt that a Calvinist has ever said such a thing. Are you just putting words in their mouths in order to bolster your theology? That is not an honest way to deal with others or the Scriptures. Forget theology, both yours and mine, and let the Scriptures speak as a whole.
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Why I Disagree With All 5 Points of Calvinism
Look at all five points of Calvinism as taught by John Calvin, then see what the Bible has to say on each point.
I. Total Inability
By total inability Calvin meant that a lost sinner cannot come to Jesus Christ and trust Him as Saviour, unless he is foreordained to come to Christ. By total inability he meant that no man has the ability to come to Christ. And unless God overpowers him and gives him that ability, he will never come to Christ
The Bible teaches total depravity, and I believe in total depravity. But that simply means that there is nothing good in man to earn or deserve salvation. The Bible says in Jeremiah 17:9, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked."
While the Bible teaches the depravity of the human race, it nowhere teaches total inability. The Bible never hints that people are lost because they have no ability to come to Christ. The language of Jesus was, "Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life" (John 5:40).
Notice, it is not a matter of whether or not you can come to Christ; it is a matter of whether or not you will come to Christ.
Jesus looked over Jerusalem and wept and said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem . . .how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" (Matt. 23:37). Here again notice, He did not say, "How often would I have gathered you together, but you could not." No. He said, "Ye would not!" It was not a matter of whether they could; it was a matter of whether they would.
Revelation 22:17, the last invitation in the Bible, says, "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely ."
If it is true that no person has the ability to come to Christ, then why would Jesus say in John 5:40, "Ye will not come to me." why didn't He simply say, "You cannot come to me."?
The only thing that stands between the sinner and salvation is the sinner's will. God made every man a free moral agent. And God never burglarizes the human will.
All men are drawn to Christ, but not all men will trust Christ as Saviour. Every man will make his own decision to trust Christ or to reject Him. The Bible makes it clear that all men have light. John 1:9 says, "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." Romans 1:19,20 indicates that every sinner has been called through the creation about him. And Romans 2:11-16 indicates that sinners are called through their conscience, even when they have not heard the Word of God.
So in the final analysis, men go to Hell, not because of their inability to come to Christ, but because they will not come to Christ-"Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."
The teaching that men, women and children are totally unable to come to Christ and trust Him as Saviour is not a scriptural doctrine. The language itself is not scriptural.
II. Unconditional Election
By unconditional election Calvin meant that some are elected to Heaven, while others are elected to Hell, and that this election is unconditional. It is wholly on God's part and without condition. By unconditional election Calvin meant that God has already decided who will be saved and who will be lost, and the individual has absolutely nothing to do with it. He can only hope that God has elected him for Heaven and not for Hell.
This teaching so obviously disagrees with the oft-repeated invitations in the Bible to sinners to come to Christ and be saved that some readers will think that I have overstated the doctrine. So I will quote John Calvin in his "Institutes," Book III, chapter 23,
"....Not all men are created with similar destiny but eternal life is foreordained for some , and eternal damnation for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say, he is predestined either to life or to death."
So Calvinism teaches that it is God's own choice that some people are to be damned forever. He never intended to save them. He foreordained them to go to Hell. And when He offers salvation in the Bible, He does not offer it to those who were foreordained to be damned. It is offered only to those who were foreordained to be saved.
There is the Bible doctrine of God's foreknowledge, predestination and election. Most knowledgeable Christians agree that God has His controlling hand on the affairs of men. They agree that according to the Bible, He selects individuals like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David as instruments to do certain things He has planned. Most Christians agree that God may choose a nation-particularly that He did choose Israel, through which He gave the law, the prophets, and eventually through whom the Saviour Himself would come- and that there is a Bible doctrine that God foreknows all things.
I have in my hand a booklet entitled TULIP written by Vic Lockman. In the booklet Mr. Lockman attempts to prove the five points of Calvinism. Under the point, Unconditional Election, he quotes Ephesians 1:4, but he only quotes the first part of the verse: "He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world. " However, that is not the end of the verse. Mr. Lockman, like most Calvinists, stopped in the middle of the verse. The entire verse reads: "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love." The verse says nothing about being chosen for Heaven or Hell. It says we are chosen that we should be holy and without blame before him in love
Under the same point, Unconditional Election, Mr. Lockman quotes John 15:16, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." Again, Mr. Lockman, like most Calvinists, stops in the middle of the verse. The entire verse reads: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."
The verse says nothing about being chosen for Heaven or Hell. It says we are chosen to go and bring forth fruit, which simply means that every Christian is chosen to be a soul winner. The fruit of a Christian is other Christians. Proverbs 11:30 says, "The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise."
Nowhere does the Bible teach that God wills for some to go to Heaven and wills others to go to Hell. No. The Bible teaches that God would have all men to be saved. Second Peter 3:9 says that He is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." First Timothy 2:4 says, "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
Those who teach that God would only have some to be saved, while He would have others to be lost are misrepresenting God and the Bible.
Does God really predestinate some people to be saved and predestinate others to go to Hell, so that they have no free choice? Absolutely not! Nobody is predestined to be saved, except as he chooses of his own free will to come to Christ and trust Him for salvation. And no one is predestined to go to Hell, except as he chooses of his own free will to reject Christ and refuses to trust Him as Saviour. John 3:36 says, "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."
Nothing could be plainer. The man who goes to Heaven goes because he comes to Jesus Christ and trusts Him as Saviour. And the man who goes to Hell does so because he refuses to come to Jesus Christ and will not trust Him as Saviour.
III. Limited Atonement
By limited atonement, Calvin meant that Christ died only for the elect, for those He planned and ordained to go to Heaven: He did not die for those He planned and ordained to go to Hell. Again I say, such language is not in the Bible , and the doctrine wholly contradicts many, many plain Scriptures.
For instance, the Bible says in I John 2:2, "He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world ." The teaching of Calvinism on Limited Atonement contradicts the express statement of Scripture. First Timothy 2:5,6 says, " The man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all...."
The Bible teaches that Jesus is the Saviour of the world. John 4:42 says, "And said unto the woman, Now we believe , not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world." Again I John 4:14, "And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world." The Scriptures make it plain that Jesus came to save the world. John 3:17 says, " For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."
No man will ever look at Jesus Christ and say, "You didn't want to be my Savior ." No! No! Jesus wants to be the Savior of all men. As a matter of fact, I Timothy 4:10 says, "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially of those that believe."
The Bible teaches that Christ bore the sins of all people. Isaiah 53:6 says, "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." There are twos "alls" in this verse. The first "all" speaks of the universal fact of sin- "All we like sheep have gone astray." And the second "all" speaks of universal atonement-"and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." The "all" in the first part of Isaiah 53:6 covers. If all went astray, then the iniquities of all were laid on Christ.
Nothing could be plainer than the fact that Jesus Christ died for every man. First timothy 2:5,6 says, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all. . . . " Romans 8:32 states, "He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?" Look at the statements--statement after statement: "that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man"; "Who gave himself a ransom for all"; "delivered him up for us all."
John 3:16 has often been called "the heart of the Bible." It has been called "the Bible in miniature." "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Jesus died for the whole world. He suffered Hell for every man who has ever lived or ever will live. And no man will look out of Hell and say, "I wanted to be saved, but Jesus did not die for me."
IV. Irresistible Grace
The fourth point of Calvinism is irresistible grace. By irresistible grace, John Calvin meant that God simply forces people to be saved. God elected some to be saved, and he let Jesus Christ die for that elect group. And now by irresistible grace, He forces those He elected, and those Jesus Christ died for to be saved.
The truth of the matter is, there is no such thing as irresistible grace. Nowhere in the Bible does the word "irresistible" appear before the word "grace". That terminology is simply not in the Bible. It is the philosophy of John Calvin, not a Bible doctrine. The word "irresistible" doesn't even sound right in front of the word "grace."
Does the Bible say anything about irresistible grace? Absolutely not! The Scriptures show that men do resist and reject God. Proverbs 29:1 states, "He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy." Notice the word "often" in this verse. If God only gave one opportunity to be saved, then man could not complain. But here the Bible says, "He, that being often reproved.. . " This means the man was reproved over and over again. Not only was he reproved many times, but he was reproved often. But the Bible says he "hardeneth his neck" and "shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy." That certainly doesn't sound like irresistible grace. The Bible teaches that a man can be reproved over and over again, and that he can harden his neck against God, and as a result will be destroyed without remedy.
Again Proverbs 1:24-26 says,
"Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh."
Here the Bible plainly says, "I have called, and ye have refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof." That doesn't sound like irresistible grace. God calls, and men refuse. Is that irresistible? God stretches out his hand and no man regards it? Is that irresistible grace? No. The Bible makes it plain that some men do reject Christ, that they refuse His call. John 5:40 says, "Ye will not come to me, that ye may have life." That verse plainly teaches that men can and do resist God and refuse to come to Him.In Acts chapter 7, we find Stephen preaching. He says in verse 51, "Ye stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." To these Jewish leaders, Stephen said, "Ye do always resist the Holy Ghost."
There is absolutely no such thing as a "can't-help-it-religion." God doesn't just force men to be saved with His so-called irresistible grace.
God offers salvation to all men. Titus 1:11 says, "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men." But man must make his own choice. He must either receive or reject Christ . John 1:12 says. "But as many as received him , to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."
When Jesus wept over Jerusalem, he said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, ho often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" Here again the Bible clearly indicates that God would have gathered them together as a hen gathers her chickens, but they would not. That certainly shows that they could reject and resist Christ.
That means that those who are not saved could have been saved. Those who have rejected Christ could have accepted Him. God offers salvation to those who will have it, but does not enforce it upon anyone who doesn't want it.
V. Perseverance of the Saints
The Bible teaches, and I believe in, the eternal security of the born-again believer. The man who has trusted Jesus Christ has everlasting life and will never perish. But the eternal security of the believer does not depend on his perseverance.
The Bible says in John 10:27-29:"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life: and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Fathers hand."
Now that doesn't sound like perseverance of the sheep or the saints. Here the sheep are in the Fathers hand, and they are safe-not because they persevere, but because they are in the Fathers hand. To be sure, the Bible teaches the eternal security of the believer. But the believer's security has nothing to do with his persevering. We are secure because we are kept by God. We are held in the Father's hand. And according to Ephesians 4:30, we have been sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.
So I disagree with all five points of Calvinism as John Calvin taught it.
It is not a Bible doctrine, but a system of human philosophy, especially appealing to the scholarly intellect, the self-sufficient and proud mind. Brilliant, philosophical, scholarly preachers are apt to be misled on this matter more than the humble-hearted, Bible-believing Christian.
Look at all five points of Calvinism as taught by John Calvin, then see what the Bible has to say on each point.
I. Total Inability
By total inability Calvin meant that a lost sinner cannot come to Jesus Christ and trust Him as Saviour, unless he is foreordained to come to Christ. By total inability he meant that no man has the ability to come to Christ. And unless God overpowers him and gives him that ability, he will never come to Christ
The Bible teaches total depravity, and I believe in total depravity. But that simply means that there is nothing good in man to earn or deserve salvation. The Bible says in Jeremiah 17:9, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked."
While the Bible teaches the depravity of the human race, it nowhere teaches total inability. The Bible never hints that people are lost because they have no ability to come to Christ. The language of Jesus was, "Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life" (John 5:40).
Notice, it is not a matter of whether or not you can come to Christ; it is a matter of whether or not you will come to Christ.
Jesus looked over Jerusalem and wept and said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem . . .how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" (Matt. 23:37). Here again notice, He did not say, "How often would I have gathered you together, but you could not." No. He said, "Ye would not!" It was not a matter of whether they could; it was a matter of whether they would.
Revelation 22:17, the last invitation in the Bible, says, "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely ."
If it is true that no person has the ability to come to Christ, then why would Jesus say in John 5:40, "Ye will not come to me." why didn't He simply say, "You cannot come to me."?
The only thing that stands between the sinner and salvation is the sinner's will. God made every man a free moral agent. And God never burglarizes the human will.
All men are drawn to Christ, but not all men will trust Christ as Saviour. Every man will make his own decision to trust Christ or to reject Him. The Bible makes it clear that all men have light. John 1:9 says, "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." Romans 1:19,20 indicates that every sinner has been called through the creation about him. And Romans 2:11-16 indicates that sinners are called through their conscience, even when they have not heard the Word of God.
So in the final analysis, men go to Hell, not because of their inability to come to Christ, but because they will not come to Christ-"Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."
The teaching that men, women and children are totally unable to come to Christ and trust Him as Saviour is not a scriptural doctrine. The language itself is not scriptural.
II. Unconditional Election
By unconditional election Calvin meant that some are elected to Heaven, while others are elected to Hell, and that this election is unconditional. It is wholly on God's part and without condition. By unconditional election Calvin meant that God has already decided who will be saved and who will be lost, and the individual has absolutely nothing to do with it. He can only hope that God has elected him for Heaven and not for Hell.
This teaching so obviously disagrees with the oft-repeated invitations in the Bible to sinners to come to Christ and be saved that some readers will think that I have overstated the doctrine. So I will quote John Calvin in his "Institutes," Book III, chapter 23,
"....Not all men are created with similar destiny but eternal life is foreordained for some , and eternal damnation for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say, he is predestined either to life or to death."
So Calvinism teaches that it is God's own choice that some people are to be damned forever. He never intended to save them. He foreordained them to go to Hell. And when He offers salvation in the Bible, He does not offer it to those who were foreordained to be damned. It is offered only to those who were foreordained to be saved.
There is the Bible doctrine of God's foreknowledge, predestination and election. Most knowledgeable Christians agree that God has His controlling hand on the affairs of men. They agree that according to the Bible, He selects individuals like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David as instruments to do certain things He has planned. Most Christians agree that God may choose a nation-particularly that He did choose Israel, through which He gave the law, the prophets, and eventually through whom the Saviour Himself would come- and that there is a Bible doctrine that God foreknows all things.
I have in my hand a booklet entitled TULIP written by Vic Lockman. In the booklet Mr. Lockman attempts to prove the five points of Calvinism. Under the point, Unconditional Election, he quotes Ephesians 1:4, but he only quotes the first part of the verse: "He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world. " However, that is not the end of the verse. Mr. Lockman, like most Calvinists, stopped in the middle of the verse. The entire verse reads: "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love." The verse says nothing about being chosen for Heaven or Hell. It says we are chosen that we should be holy and without blame before him in love
Under the same point, Unconditional Election, Mr. Lockman quotes John 15:16, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." Again, Mr. Lockman, like most Calvinists, stops in the middle of the verse. The entire verse reads: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."
The verse says nothing about being chosen for Heaven or Hell. It says we are chosen to go and bring forth fruit, which simply means that every Christian is chosen to be a soul winner. The fruit of a Christian is other Christians. Proverbs 11:30 says, "The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise."
Nowhere does the Bible teach that God wills for some to go to Heaven and wills others to go to Hell. No. The Bible teaches that God would have all men to be saved. Second Peter 3:9 says that He is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." First Timothy 2:4 says, "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
Those who teach that God would only have some to be saved, while He would have others to be lost are misrepresenting God and the Bible.
Does God really predestinate some people to be saved and predestinate others to go to Hell, so that they have no free choice? Absolutely not! Nobody is predestined to be saved, except as he chooses of his own free will to come to Christ and trust Him for salvation. And no one is predestined to go to Hell, except as he chooses of his own free will to reject Christ and refuses to trust Him as Saviour. John 3:36 says, "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."
Nothing could be plainer. The man who goes to Heaven goes because he comes to Jesus Christ and trusts Him as Saviour. And the man who goes to Hell does so because he refuses to come to Jesus Christ and will not trust Him as Saviour.
III. Limited Atonement
By limited atonement, Calvin meant that Christ died only for the elect, for those He planned and ordained to go to Heaven: He did not die for those He planned and ordained to go to Hell. Again I say, such language is not in the Bible , and the doctrine wholly contradicts many, many plain Scriptures.
For instance, the Bible says in I John 2:2, "He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world ." The teaching of Calvinism on Limited Atonement contradicts the express statement of Scripture. First Timothy 2:5,6 says, " The man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all...."
The Bible teaches that Jesus is the Saviour of the world. John 4:42 says, "And said unto the woman, Now we believe , not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world." Again I John 4:14, "And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world." The Scriptures make it plain that Jesus came to save the world. John 3:17 says, " For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."
No man will ever look at Jesus Christ and say, "You didn't want to be my Savior ." No! No! Jesus wants to be the Savior of all men. As a matter of fact, I Timothy 4:10 says, "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially of those that believe."
The Bible teaches that Christ bore the sins of all people. Isaiah 53:6 says, "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." There are twos "alls" in this verse. The first "all" speaks of the universal fact of sin- "All we like sheep have gone astray." And the second "all" speaks of universal atonement-"and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." The "all" in the first part of Isaiah 53:6 covers. If all went astray, then the iniquities of all were laid on Christ.
Nothing could be plainer than the fact that Jesus Christ died for every man. First timothy 2:5,6 says, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all. . . . " Romans 8:32 states, "He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?" Look at the statements--statement after statement: "that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man"; "Who gave himself a ransom for all"; "delivered him up for us all."
John 3:16 has often been called "the heart of the Bible." It has been called "the Bible in miniature." "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Jesus died for the whole world. He suffered Hell for every man who has ever lived or ever will live. And no man will look out of Hell and say, "I wanted to be saved, but Jesus did not die for me."
IV. Irresistible Grace
The fourth point of Calvinism is irresistible grace. By irresistible grace, John Calvin meant that God simply forces people to be saved. God elected some to be saved, and he let Jesus Christ die for that elect group. And now by irresistible grace, He forces those He elected, and those Jesus Christ died for to be saved.
The truth of the matter is, there is no such thing as irresistible grace. Nowhere in the Bible does the word "irresistible" appear before the word "grace". That terminology is simply not in the Bible. It is the philosophy of John Calvin, not a Bible doctrine. The word "irresistible" doesn't even sound right in front of the word "grace."
Does the Bible say anything about irresistible grace? Absolutely not! The Scriptures show that men do resist and reject God. Proverbs 29:1 states, "He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy." Notice the word "often" in this verse. If God only gave one opportunity to be saved, then man could not complain. But here the Bible says, "He, that being often reproved.. . " This means the man was reproved over and over again. Not only was he reproved many times, but he was reproved often. But the Bible says he "hardeneth his neck" and "shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy." That certainly doesn't sound like irresistible grace. The Bible teaches that a man can be reproved over and over again, and that he can harden his neck against God, and as a result will be destroyed without remedy.
Again Proverbs 1:24-26 says,
"Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh."
Here the Bible plainly says, "I have called, and ye have refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof." That doesn't sound like irresistible grace. God calls, and men refuse. Is that irresistible? God stretches out his hand and no man regards it? Is that irresistible grace? No. The Bible makes it plain that some men do reject Christ, that they refuse His call. John 5:40 says, "Ye will not come to me, that ye may have life." That verse plainly teaches that men can and do resist God and refuse to come to Him.In Acts chapter 7, we find Stephen preaching. He says in verse 51, "Ye stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." To these Jewish leaders, Stephen said, "Ye do always resist the Holy Ghost."
There is absolutely no such thing as a "can't-help-it-religion." God doesn't just force men to be saved with His so-called irresistible grace.
God offers salvation to all men. Titus 1:11 says, "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men." But man must make his own choice. He must either receive or reject Christ . John 1:12 says. "But as many as received him , to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."
When Jesus wept over Jerusalem, he said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, ho often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" Here again the Bible clearly indicates that God would have gathered them together as a hen gathers her chickens, but they would not. That certainly shows that they could reject and resist Christ.
That means that those who are not saved could have been saved. Those who have rejected Christ could have accepted Him. God offers salvation to those who will have it, but does not enforce it upon anyone who doesn't want it.
V. Perseverance of the Saints
The Bible teaches, and I believe in, the eternal security of the born-again believer. The man who has trusted Jesus Christ has everlasting life and will never perish. But the eternal security of the believer does not depend on his perseverance.
The Bible says in John 10:27-29:"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life: and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Fathers hand."
Now that doesn't sound like perseverance of the sheep or the saints. Here the sheep are in the Fathers hand, and they are safe-not because they persevere, but because they are in the Fathers hand. To be sure, the Bible teaches the eternal security of the believer. But the believer's security has nothing to do with his persevering. We are secure because we are kept by God. We are held in the Father's hand. And according to Ephesians 4:30, we have been sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.
So I disagree with all five points of Calvinism as John Calvin taught it.
It is not a Bible doctrine, but a system of human philosophy, especially appealing to the scholarly intellect, the self-sufficient and proud mind. Brilliant, philosophical, scholarly preachers are apt to be misled on this matter more than the humble-hearted, Bible-believing Christian.
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twin1954
Baptist by the Bible
Once again you make statements that are simply untrue. You build a straw man in order to tear it apart. Very little in this is actually what John Calvin taught. It is certainly not what Calvinists believe.
While I indentify as a Calvinist I do so only for convenience. I am not a follower of John Calvin. I am a just a man who believes what the Scriptures say as a whole.
The intentional deception in the post above should leave all who read it in doubt.
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twin1954
Baptist by the Bible
First of all unlike you I do not argue with dead men. I can easily answer every point and have done so many times before. But I tire of those who continue to have their arguments answered and ignore the answers in order to build their straw men. Add to that the fact that you haven’t even attempted to answer anything I have posted. What’s the point of doing so when you just ignore it? Anyone can see that you are only parroting what you have heard or read before. Have you even read anything Calvin wrote? Can you actually answer any of the things I have posted recently in this thread? When you can I will respond to your answers with my own.Uh huh...
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DeaconDean
γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
- Jul 19, 2005
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Here, I agree 100% with what is said below.
Here, Here!
Post #50...first mistake:
The Five Points of Calvinism was NOT taught by John Calvin. In fact, they came in 1611! John Calvin was born July 10, 1509, and died May 27, 1564.
If the 5 points of Calvinism came in 1611, how did John Calvin teach it when he died 47 years earlier? Hum...
God Bless
Till all are one.
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Does it matter when Calvin lived and died? You all still call yourselves "Calvinists" and what you believe is called "Calvinism". The article (one of many I could have chosen from) totally debunks TULIP. What you all believe is totally against the nature of the God I love and serve. You'll never convince me otherwise. That said.....
We'll just have to agree to disagree. No sense in continuing and causing hard feelings. That is NOT my intention at all. If it seemed that way I apologize. God bless, and Merry Christmas to you and yours!
We'll just have to agree to disagree. No sense in continuing and causing hard feelings. That is NOT my intention at all. If it seemed that way I apologize. God bless, and Merry Christmas to you and yours!
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- May 6, 2016
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Anyone affiliated with the Pentecostal Free Will Baptists? I've read they started out as a holiness group of Baptists, but eventually accepted many doctrines common among Pentecostals. I believe they generally self-identity as Pentecostal, too.
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- Jun 26, 2004
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Folks, many of these so-called "Baptist groups" are really just plain Baptists with different emphasis in ministry. Don't let the label fool you. Baptists are just that...Baptists.
The biggest divide is between Freewill/Arminian Baptists and Calvinistic/Reformed Baptists. The rest is a result of sinner squabbling over the details and storming off in a huff and starting another group for like minded Baptists.
Those claiming to be "Charismatic Baptists" are not Baptist by the way for they deny the sufficiency of scripture when they open themselves up to "tongues."
Yours in the Lord,
jm
The biggest divide is between Freewill/Arminian Baptists and Calvinistic/Reformed Baptists. The rest is a result of sinner squabbling over the details and storming off in a huff and starting another group for like minded Baptists.
Those claiming to be "Charismatic Baptists" are not Baptist by the way for they deny the sufficiency of scripture when they open themselves up to "tongues."
Yours in the Lord,
jm
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