Diversity of Baptists

[twin1954]

I wouldn't call him a heretic, that's a bit far.

Dipensationalism is heresy. Dispensational leanings are not. MacArthur doesn’t lean Dispensational but promotes it. Moreover he is a subtle legalist. His “Lordship Salvation” started out as a response to easy believism but has grown into a legalistic monster.

 

[YeshuaFan]

I differ on the law as a rule of life and on sanctification as a process. Baptists historically held to a Covenant theology that does not recognize the Covenant of Grace in different administrations but of two different covenants. We agree on progressive revelation but do not believe that the New Covenant is just a different administration of the Old.

True, as that is another dividing line in our Covenant theology from other reformed, as we do see some type of discontinuity form the old to the New Covenant, so that is why we insist on believers and not infant water baptism!

 

[YeshuaFan]

The only thing MacArthur holds to is the five points, other than that he is a Dispensational heretic.

Being a Dispensational in theology is not being a heretic, just one who is not being very consistent!

 

[YeshuaFan]

I wouldn't call him a heretic, that's a bit far.

Indeed, as a heretic is one who denies the Gospel of Christ, Pauline justification, the atonement, resurrection, second coming etc, and Dr Mac holds to all of that!

 

[YeshuaFan]

Dipensationalism is heresy. Dispensational leanings are not. MacArthur doesn’t lean Dispensational but promotes it. Moreover he is a subtle legalist. His “Lordship Salvation” started out as a response to easy believism but has grown into a legalistic monster.

I see him as one who is saved, gifted teacher, but in some of his theology is quite "out there", especially as in Lordship salvation, as he seems to be very close to what Ray Comfort expouses in the Way of the Master evangelism!

 

[twin1954]

Indeed, as a heretic is one who denies the Gospel of Christ, Pauline justification, the atonement, resurrection, second coming etc, and Dr Mac holds to all of that!

Dispensationalism is indeed heresy. It wrongly divides the Scriptures as God dealing differently with man according to different dispensations. It makes Israel and the church two different entities dealt with in two different manners. It is founded and grounded on a eschatological system that is at best a theory. It makes you jump through countless hoops of proof texts in order to support it.

I am sorry but you simply do not start with an eschatological system and then build a theology around it.

We just can’t compromise because it is so popular and people we love adhere to it. We must call a spade a spade.

 

[YeshuaFan]

Dispensationalism is indeed heresy. It wrongly divides the Scriptures as God dealing differently with man according to different dispensations. It makes Israel and the church two different entities dealt with in two different manners. It is founded and grounded on a eschatological system that is at best a theory. It makes you jump through countless hoops of proof texts in order to support it.

I am sorry but you simply do not start with an eschatological system and then build a theology around it.

We just can’t compromise because it is so popular and people we love adhere to it. We must call a spade a spade.

One who holds to that theology though is not compromising any essentials of the Christian faith, as it is more that they are wrong in how they view certain things, but does not rise to level of holding to heresy!

 

[DeaconDean]

Dispensationalism is indeed heresy. It wrongly divides the Scriptures as God dealing differently with man according to different dispensations.

Brother, know this, I respect you more than any person in this area, but, that is simply your vp.

A "dispensation" in the simplest definition, is nothing more than an unspecified length of time.

It can be shown from scriptures that prior to Jesus, there were a few "covenants" God made with Israel. And none of the "covenants" negated the previous ones.

For example, the Adamic Covenant/dispensation. (Considered 2: Edenic/Adamic)

From the time God created Adam, until Noah, this is one "dispensation". God made a covenant with Adam. When Adam sinned and was driven out of the Garden, then comes the Adamic curses.

Between Adam and Noah, that "covenant/curse" stayed. After the deluge, came the Noahic Covenant (dispensation).

The "covenant" God made with Noah had better promises, sealed by God's "rainbow". Did the "covenant" God made with Noah, disestablish the Adamic covenant? Evidently not. Man and woman still reproduce. We still till the ground for our beard. We still live by the sweat of our brow. Did God deal with Noah the same way He dealt with Adam?

From Adam to Noah was one "dispensation". From Noah to Abraham was one dispensation. etc, etc.

It makes Israel and the church two different entities dealt with in two different manners.

That, I will not argue against. You are 100% correct.

It is founded and grounded on a eschatological system that is at best a theory. It makes you jump through countless hoops of proof texts in order to support it.

Again brother, your viewpoint. As a matter of fact, all "eschatology" depends on the individuals "countless hoops of proof texts in order to support it".

When speaking on "eschatology" even Jesus (the God-man) said He didn't know.

Absolutely nobody, has an eschatology that is 100% correct except the Lord God Himself.

I am sorry but you simply do not start with an eschatological system and then build a theology around it.

We just can’t compromise because it is so popular and people we love adhere to it. We must call a spade a spade.

Here again, that but not necessarily "dispensationalism", is not the only "theology" that starts with a singular viewpoint and builds around it. What you see as heresy, to some groups, is truth. You and I agree there are some things Catholicism teaches that you and I regard as "heresy", but to them, its truth.

I'm sorry brother, I love you to death, respect the ---- out of you, but in regards to dispensationalism, we'll always be separate.

You should visit the GT area, especially the "Covenant Theology" area, since you are so strong in this area.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[twin1954]

One who holds to that theology though is not compromising any essentials of the Christian faith, as it is more that they are wrong in how they view certain things, but does not rise to level of holding to heresy!

I wasn’t talking about those who hold to it compromising but we who do not. We cannot compromise truth out of compassion.

 

[twin1954]

Brother, know this, I respect you more than any person in this area, but, that is simply your vp.

A "dispensation" in the simplest definition, is nothing more than an unspecified length of time.

It can be shown from scriptures that prior to Jesus, there were a few "covenants" God made with Israel. And none of the "covenants" negated the previous ones.

For example, the Adamic Covenant/dispensation. (Considered 2: Edenic/Adamic)

From the time God created Adam, until Noah, this is one "dispensation". God made a covenant with Adam. When Adam sinned and was driven out of the Garden, then comes the Adamic curses.

Between Adam and Noah, that "covenant/curse" stayed. After the deluge, came the Noahic Covenant (dispensation).

The "covenant" God made with Noah had better promises, sealed by God's "rainbow". Did the "covenant" God made with Noah, disestablish the Adamic covenant? Evidently not. Man and woman still reproduce. We still till the ground for our beard. We still live by the sweat of our brow. Did God deal with Noah the same way He dealt with Adam?

From Adam to Noah was one "dispensation". From Noah to Abraham was one dispensation. etc, etc.



That, I will not argue against. You are 100% correct.



Again brother, your viewpoint. As a matter of fact, all "eschatology" depends on the individuals "countless hoops of proof texts in order to support it".

When speaking on "eschatology" even Jesus (the God-man) said He didn't know.

Absolutely nobody, has an eschatology that is 100% correct except the Lord God Himself.



Here again, that but not necessarily "dispensationalism", is not the only "theology" that starts with a singular viewpoint and builds around it. What you see as heresy, to some groups, is truth. You and I agree there are some things Catholicism teaches that you and I regard as "heresy", but to them, its truth.

I'm sorry brother, I love you to death, respect the ---- out of you, but in regards to dispensationalism, we'll always be separate.

You should visit the GT area, especially the "Covenant Theology" area, since you are so strong in this area.

God Bless

Till all are one.

You know that I love and respect you as well brother. Yes we differ on this but calling a covenant a dispensation is intended, by those who developed the concept, to make one believe that God dealt differently with man in each. He did not. He has always dealt with man according to the Covenant of Grace.

 

[YeshuaFan]

Brother, know this, I respect you more than any person in this area, but, that is simply your vp.

A "dispensation" in the simplest definition, is nothing more than an unspecified length of time.

It can be shown from scriptures that prior to Jesus, there were a few "covenants" God made with Israel. And none of the "covenants" negated the previous ones.

For example, the Adamic Covenant/dispensation. (Considered 2: Edenic/Adamic)

From the time God created Adam, until Noah, this is one "dispensation". God made a covenant with Adam. When Adam sinned and was driven out of the Garden, then comes the Adamic curses.

Between Adam and Noah, that "covenant/curse" stayed. After the deluge, came the Noahic Covenant (dispensation).

The "covenant" God made with Noah had better promises, sealed by God's "rainbow". Did the "covenant" God made with Noah, disestablish the Adamic covenant? Evidently not. Man and woman still reproduce. We still till the ground for our beard. We still live by the sweat of our brow. Did God deal with Noah the same way He dealt with Adam?

From Adam to Noah was one "dispensation". From Noah to Abraham was one dispensation. etc, etc.



That, I will not argue against. You are 100% correct.



Again brother, your viewpoint. As a matter of fact, all "eschatology" depends on the individuals "countless hoops of proof texts in order to support it".

When speaking on "eschatology" even Jesus (the God-man) said He didn't know.

Absolutely nobody, has an eschatology that is 100% correct except the Lord God Himself.



Here again, that but not necessarily "dispensationalism", is not the only "theology" that starts with a singular viewpoint and builds around it. What you see as heresy, to some groups, is truth. You and I agree there are some things Catholicism teaches that you and I regard as "heresy", but to them, its truth.

I'm sorry brother, I love you to death, respect the ---- out of you, but in regards to dispensationalism, we'll always be separate.

You should visit the GT area, especially the "Covenant Theology" area, since you are so strong in this area.

God Bless

Till all are one.

The truth still remains that those holding to it as their main theology also hold and confess to the core doctrines of Christianity, so still my brother in Christ, its just that we will have interesting discussions!
Reminds me of when Reformed Baptists and Presbyterians clash over which one of us are really "reformed enough!"

 

[YeshuaFan]

You know that I love and respect you as well brother. Yes we differ on this but calling a covenant a dispensation is intended, by those who developed the concept, to make one believe that God dealt differently with man in each. He did not. He has always dealt with man according to the Covenant of Grace.

The Covenant of Grace would be the New Covenant itself....

 

[DeaconDean]

You know that I love and respect you as well brother. Yes we differ on this but calling a covenant a dispensation is intended, by those who developed the concept, to make one believe that God dealt differently with man in each. He did not. He has always dealt with man according to the Covenant of Grace.

Not really.

From an Old Testament perspective, if you were not a "Hebrew", you were locked out of God's grace, blessings, etc.

With the exception of a few "eschatological" passages in the OT. 99.9% of everything was written for and to the Hebrews/Jews.

Sorry.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[twin1954]

Not really.

From an Old Testament perspective, if you were not a "Hebrew", you were locked out of God's grace, blessings, etc.

With the exception of a few "eschatological" passages in the OT. 99.9% of everything was written for and to the Hebrews/Jews.

Sorry.

God Bless

Till all are one.

That would be true if the Bible was just a literal book. But it isn’t, so the Old Testament is not only written to the Jews but to the true spiritual Israel, all the elet throughout the ages. While the literal is true it isn’t the primary focus. All of the promises given to Israel are fulfilled in Christ. He and His work are the subject, focus and theme of the Old Testament. Love you brother.

 

[YeshuaFan]

That would be true if the Bible was just a literal book. But it isn’t, so the Old Testament is not only written to the Jews but to the true spiritual Israel, all the elet throughout the ages. While the literal is true it isn’t the primary focus. All of the promises given to Israel are fulfilled in Christ. He and His work are the subject, focus and theme of the Old Testament. Love you brother.

God saved all sinners that he ever has by the Basis of ther Cross of Christ, by the Covenant of Grace/NC, but the fullness of that required Jesus to come, died, raise and ascend to heaven, in order to have the Holy Spirit come to establish the NC in full now!

 

[YeshuaFan]

Not really.

From an Old Testament perspective, if you were not a "Hebrew", you were locked out of God's grace, blessings, etc.

With the exception of a few "eschatological" passages in the OT. 99.9% of everything was written for and to the Hebrews/Jews.

Sorry.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Now we are under the NC, so all who are now in Christ of all part of spiritual Israel, and have same spiritual promises and blessings!

 

[DeaconDean]

Now we are under the NC, so all who are now in Christ of all part of spiritual Israel, and have same spiritual promises and blessings!

Not once have I argued against that.

But, my point is/was, prior to Jesus establishing a new covenant, on "better promises", if you were NOT a Hebrew (OT), you were completely left out.

Covenant theologians say we're now under the "Covenant of Grace".

I say the "Dispensation of Grace". (or, Age of)

And, I do know this, it makes no difference whether you call it the Covenant of Grace, or the Age of Grace, this will coming to an end shortly.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

That would be true if the Bible was just a literal book. But it isn’t, so the Old Testament is not only written to the Jews but to the true spiritual Israel, all the elet throughout the ages. While the literal is true it isn’t the primary focus. All of the promises given to Israel are fulfilled in Christ. He and His work are the subject, focus and theme of the Old Testament. Love you brother.

Here again, with the exception of the promise of the coming Savior, and certain "eschatological" passages, 99.9% of the OT was not addressed to Gentiles. That's my point.

And again, looking at the various "covenants" of the OT, each time God gave them, additional "conditions" were added. So in a pure technical sense, yes, God dealt differently with each generation after the covenants were given, this is seen in the additional "conditions" that were added.

Love you too brother.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[YeshuaFan]

Not once have I argued against that.

But, my point is/was, prior to Jesus establishing a new covenant, on "better promises", if you were NOT a Hebrew (OT), you were completely left out.

Covenant theologians say we're now under the "Covenant of Grace".

I say the "Dispensation of Grace". (or, Age of)

And, I do know this, it makes no difference whether you call it the Covenant of Grace, or the Age of Grace, this will coming to an end shortly.

God Bless

Till all are one.

I am a reformed Baptist, and would see the Covenant of Grace as being the NC...

 

[DeaconDean]

I am a reformed Baptist, and would see the Covenant of Grace as being the NC...

Again, never said it wasn't.

Geez...

Tomato/Tomatoe, Potato/Potatoe. Covenant of Grace/Age of Grace.

God Bless

Till all are one.