Distinction between repentance and righteousness

[cloudyday2]

Let me start with a quote of the definition of repentance:
"deep sorrow, compunction, or contrition for a past sin, wrongdoing, or the like."
the definition of repentance

Maybe I am particularly stupid, but until looking up the definition of "repentance" yesterday I thought it described a change of behavior. In fact some definitions of "repentance" do require a change of behavior, but some only require remorse.

Using this definition, "repentance" and "righteousness" can be decoupled.
- One person can be living righteously without regretting past unrighteousness (thus not repentant)
- Another person can be living unrighteously while regretting that unrighteousness (thus repentant).

Take the story of Lot's wife. She had departed from the sinful city of Sodom (figuratively departed from sinful lifestyle), but when she turned to look back she showed a lack of remorse for that lifestyle. Thus Lot's wife was righteous without being repentant.

This is an important distinction, because many or most people who have sinful behaviors struggle unsuccessfully to live more righteously. I remember reading a story about an alcoholic priest who was often drunk during the liturgy, but he consistently repented by praying in a cemetery. This priest might have been more repentant than another hypothetical priest who was not addicted to alcohol but secretly wished he could be drunk all the time.

Just wondering what others think on this.

 

[SkyWriting]

Let me start with a quote of the definition of repentance:
"deep sorrow, compunction, or contrition for a past sin, wrongdoing, or the like."
the definition of repentance

Maybe I am particularly stupid, but until looking up the definition of "repentance" yesterday I thought it described a change of behavior. In fact some definitions of "repentance" do require a change of behavior, but some only require remorse.

Using this definition, "repentance" and "righteousness" can be decoupled.
- One person can be living righteously without regretting past unrighteousness (thus not repentant)
- Another person can be living unrighteously while regretting that unrighteousness (thus repentant).

Take the story of Lot's wife. She had departed from the sinful city of Sodom (figuratively departed from sinful lifestyle), but when she turned to look back she showed a lack of remorse for that lifestyle. Thus Lot's wife was righteous without being repentant.

This is an important distinction, because many or most people who have sinful behaviors struggle unsuccessfully to live more righteously. I remember reading a story about an alcoholic priest who was often drunk during the liturgy, but he consistently repented by praying in a cemetery. This priest might have been more repentant than another hypothetical priest who was not addicted to alcohol but secretly wished he could be drunk all the time.

Just wondering what others think on this.

Very good! I lived a very righteous life decades before I was saved. I didn't smoke or drink or carouse sexually, or lie, or was lazy, and for no particular reason. I just didn't.

 

[timewerx]

Maybe I am particularly stupid, but until looking up the definition of "repentance" yesterday I thought it described a change of behavior. In fact some definitions of "repentance" do require a change of behavior, but some only require remorse.

The Greek word for "repentance" does talk about change of one's mind.

Strong's Greek: 3340. μετανοέω (metanoeó) -- to change one's mind or purpose

μετανοέω

Strong's Concordance 3340. metanoeó

3340 metanoéō (from 3326 /metá, "changed after being with" and 3539 /noiéō, "think") – properly, "think differently after," "after a change of mind"; to repent (literally, "think differently afterwards").

When something looks confusing, type the verse in google, look for Biblehub link and the site should give you link to Greek.

Repentance is definitely NOT the right word for metanoeó!!


.

 

[mark kennedy]

Let me start with a quote of the definition of repentance:
"deep sorrow, compunction, or contrition for a past sin, wrongdoing, or the like."
the definition of repentance

Maybe I am particularly stupid, but until looking up the definition of "repentance" yesterday I thought it described a change of behavior. In fact some definitions of "repentance" do require a change of behavior, but some only require remorse.

Using this definition, "repentance" and "righteousness" can be decoupled.
- One person can be living righteously without regretting past unrighteousness (thus not repentant)
- Another person can be living unrighteously while regretting that unrighteousness (thus repentant).

Take the story of Lot's wife. She had departed from the sinful city of Sodom (figuratively departed from sinful lifestyle), but when she turned to look back she showed a lack of remorse for that lifestyle. Thus Lot's wife was righteous without being repentant.

This is an important distinction, because many or most people who have sinful behaviors struggle unsuccessfully to live more righteously. I remember reading a story about an alcoholic priest who was often drunk during the liturgy, but he consistently repented by praying in a cemetery. This priest might have been more repentant than another hypothetical priest who was not addicted to alcohol but secretly wished he could be drunk all the time.

Just wondering what others think on this.

I've always liked the Vine's Dictionary definition of 'repentance':

Repent, Repentance (G3340 μετανοέω metanoeō): lit., "to perceive afterwards" (meta, "after," implying "change," noeo, "to perceive;" nous, "the mind, the seat of moral reflection"), in contrast to pronoeo, "to perceive beforehand," hence signifies "to change one's mind or purpose," always, in the NT, involving a change for the better, an amendment. (Vine's Dictionary of New Testament Words)
​

I like the expression, 'the mind, the seat of moral reflection'. It fits the New Testament concept of repentance, in that, you perceive backwards one's moral choices. I think it's pretty obvious that repentance was the message that John the Baptist and Jesus both preached early in the gospels. After a while the New Testament develops the concept of righteousness being the result of repentance, based on the nature and character of God, imputed to the believer by faith.

"Righteousness is not said to be imputed to the believer save in the sense that faith is imputed ('reckoned' is the better word) for righteousness. It is clear that in Rom 4:6,11, 'righteousness reckoned' must be understood in the light of the context, 'faith reckoned for righteousness,' Rom 4:3, 5, 9, 22. 'For' in these places is eis, which does not mean 'instead of,' but 'with a view to.' The faith thus exercised brings the soul into vital union with God in Christ, and inevitably produces righteousness of life, that is, conformity to the will of God." [From Notes on Galatians, by Hogg and Vine, pp. 246, 247.]
​

There can be no question that repentance is the gateway to the gospel, the righteousness that is by faith based on the nature and character of God being the sole focus. God is righteous and all who come into the world realize this (Rom. 1:18-20; John 1:9-13). The righteousness that is by faith comes from God, by simply believing the one who makes the promise if faithful (Rom. 4:3; Gen. 15:6, 22).

 

[timewerx]

I've always liked the Vine's Dictionary definition of 'repentance':

Repent, Repentance (G3340 μετανοέω metanoeō): lit., "to perceive afterwards" (meta, "after," implying "change," noeo, "to perceive;" nous, "the mind, the seat of moral reflection"), in contrast to pronoeo, "to perceive beforehand," hence signifies "to change one's mind or purpose," always, in the NT, involving a change for the better, an amendment. (Vine's Dictionary of New Testament Words)
​

I like the expression, 'the mind, the seat of moral reflection'. It fits the New Testament concept of repentance, in that, you perceive backwards one's moral choices. I think it's pretty obvious that repentance was the message that John the Baptist and Jesus both

Interesting.

The secular and Vine's definition of "repentance" is different from each other.

It's no wonder why many Christians are divided over the subject of repentance

Although I'm winking, it's a very bad thing.....Many are deceived over the subject with the wrong choice of English word in some Bible translations.

 

[mark kennedy]

Interesting.

The secular and Vine's definition of "repentance" is different from each other.

It's no wonder why many Christians are divided over the subject of repentance

Although I'm winking, it's a very bad thing.....Many are deceived over the subject with the wrong choice of English word in some Bible translations.

It's the same basic idea but it's helpful to find a good New Testament dictionary and track down specific New Testament words. Repentance is thought to stop doing sinful things, of course that's an important part of it. But the idea in the New Testament is to change the mind at the seat of moral reflection, a deeper level of repentance that strongly indicates a change of attitude at the core of the believer.

 

[cloudyday2]

It's the same basic idea but it's helpful to find a good New Testament dictionary and track down specific New Testament words. Repentance is thought to stop doing sinful things, of course that's an important part of it. But the idea in the New Testament is to change the mind at the seat of moral reflection, a deeper level of repentance that strongly indicates a change of attitude at the core of the believer.

What would you say about an alcoholic who feels remorse but cannot stop? Is that repentance? I think it is. I think repentance is accepting through trial-and-error that God's ways are truly correct even if you cannot personally follow God's ways due to psychological or neurological issues.

In other words, the person should stop drinking because he/she understands that it isn't a good thing rather than out of some grudging obedience to God. And even if the person cannot stop drinking due to the strength of the addiction that person has repented by acknowledging that God was right.

 

[mark kennedy]

What would you say about an alcoholic who feels remorse but cannot stop? Is that repentance? I think it is. I think repentance is accepting through trial-and-error that God's ways are truly correct even if you cannot personally follow God's ways due to psychological or neurological issues.

In other words, the person should stop drinking because he/she understands that it isn't a good thing rather than out of some grudging obedience to God. And even if the person cannot stop drinking due to the strength of the addiction that person has repented by acknowledging that God was right.

With alcohol two people can sit down and drink, one knows how to stop and the other doesn't. Some quirk of body chemistry but if both come under conviction about drinking one will struggle horribly while the other hardly misses it. Then it gets even more complicated if there are mental and neurological issues, maybe the individual is self medicating and the alcohol is more of an effect then a cause. Now that kind of a mess is hard to sort out, the way these terms are used the mind does a 180, from the things of this world to the things of God in Christ. Abraham believed God and it was accounted (credited, counted) to him for righteousness. Abraham still struggled with some things and he didn't really walk blameless and upright until he was like a 100 years old. Repentance and righteousness have one thing in common in the New Testament, they are both gifts of God. Our salvation is applied to us through the power of the Holy Spirit, we are born again of the Holy Spirit and bear fruit to the glory of God by him.

Yes these are serious issues but I think we have both heard the testimonies, they are not insurmountable. What is required is a miracle that changes the heart, mind and soul. That is the promise of the gospel.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[hedrick]

What would you say about an alcoholic who feels remorse but cannot stop? Is that repentance? I think it is. I think repentance is accepting through trial-and-error that God's ways are truly correct even if you cannot personally follow God's ways due to psychological or neurological issues.

In other words, the person should stop drinking because he/she understands that it isn't a good thing rather than out of some grudging obedience to God. And even if the person cannot stop drinking due to the strength of the addiction that person has repented by acknowledging that God was right.

The core definition of repentance is change. Jesus actually uses it more for turning the overall direction of your life around than repenting for specific sins. His priorities are following him and the Gospel, and showing love for others. Negatively, the things he is upset about are things that seriously impact others. He never uses the term "pure" or "holy" of his followers. Moral purity was a goal for the Pharisees, not Jesus.

I agree that in practice the situation with individual sins can be complex. Your example of an alcoholic is a good one. I maintain that the term does in fact mean a change of behavior. But still, "if the same person sins against you seven times a day, and turns back to you seven times and says, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive.” " (Luke 17:4)

No doubt all of us have things in our lives that are like that, that we recognize are problems, but can't fix.

Fortunately, despite the impression you often get from Christians, in Jesus' parables and other teaches, he seems more concerned with whether you've done anything worthwhile than whether you've fixed all your sins. (This assumes you're not doing things that abuse other people, of course.)

 

[FireDragon76]

Let me start with a quote of the definition of repentance:
"deep sorrow, compunction, or contrition for a past sin, wrongdoing, or the like."
the definition of repentance

That's more of the Catholic or Pietist idea of repentance.

The Greek word metanoia literally means something like changing your mind about something.

 

[FireDragon76]

The actual word "repentance" in English is so confusing because its bound up with the word penance, which has to do with ecclessiastic punishments you do to work off temporal consequences of sin. But we still have that "churchly" word even though its etymology is misleading, it's just become part of common English anyways.

Really, part of the Reformers discovery of the original Greek text was so stunning for them because Jesus had been literally saying "Do Penance!" ("Poenitentiam agite!", in the Vulgate) and suddenly they discover he's saying "Change your mind!"

 

[cloudyday2]

That's more of the Catholic or Pietist idea of repentance.

The Greek word metanoia literally means something like changing your mind about something.

But it could be changing your mind about past bad behavior from indifference to regret. For some addicts the best that can be hoped is to regret the behavior. There is little hope of actually stopping the bad behavior. The regret doesn't immediately translate into changed behavior when a person is addicted.

I wonder if scholars can guess the Aramaic word that was translated to metanoia, and I wonder what that word might have meant. Metanoia might be narrower or broader than the original Aramaic.

 

[FireDragon76]

But it could be changing your mind about past bad behavior from indifference to regret. For some addicts the best that can be hoped is to regret the behavior. There is little hope of actually stopping the bad behavior. The regret doesn't immediately translate into changed behavior when a person is addicted.

I wonder if scholars can guess the Aramaic word that was translated to metanoia, and I wonder what that word might have meant. Metanoia might be narrower or broader than the original Aramaic.

Perhaps, yes. But in the Christian conceptualization it's really about the idea of returning to God, in fact this is the term used in Hebrew, shuv.

 

[cloudyday2]

@FireDragon76 , Jesus said that a man who looks at a woman and WANTS to commit adultery is as guilty as a man who physically commits adultery. The sin comes from the DESIRE rather than the action. So perhaps an addict who cannot change his/her physical behavior can still repent by merely DESIRING to change.

Another example is Lot's wife whose looking back at the burning city of Sodom demonstrated a DESIRE to return to Sodom even though she had left, and God condemned this desire as though she had actually returned.

 

[cloudyday2]

Perhaps, yes. But in the Christian conceptualization it's really about the idea of returning to God, in fact this is the term used in Hebrew, shuv.

Is that Hebrew word from a verse in the Old Testament that Jesus and John the Baptist might have been referencing?

 

[FireDragon76]

Is that Hebrew word from a verse in the Old Testament that Jesus and John the Baptist might have been referencing?

Probably, yes. Jesus spoke Aramaic and Hebrew is similar.