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Where do you find biblical support for this idea of "explicitly stated promises made to SOME" - and what is the distinction between this exclusive group and other faithful believers/adherents of His covenant?The fact that additional promises were made to others does not detract one iota from the EXPLICITLY STATED promises made to some.
No Jew nor gentile during the grace age, However the 144000 that appear during the tribulation are all sealed jews and the kingdom will be returned to them.While dispensations are viable, dispensationalism is not!
Now all you need to do is to find that straw man a dispy who believes that there are more than one way of salvation..
That will be fun too..
About those 144,000........No Jew nor gentile during the grace age, However the 144000 that appear during the tribulation are all sealed jews and the kingdom will be returned to them.
Jesus is sitting Davids throne friend
No Jew nor gentile during the grace age, However the 144000 that appear during the tribulation are all sealed jews and the kingdom will be returned to them.
Jesus is sitting Davids throne friend
No Jew nor gentile during the grace age, However the 144000 that appear during the tribulation are all sealed jews and the kingdom will be returned to them.
Yes. We are told without qualification that Christ will return the way He left. (Acts 1) This is a problem for the Dispensationalist who claims Christ will return in a near miss to rapture His saints, return again for judgment at the beginning of the millennial reign and than for a 3rd time at the end of the millennial period. That would not be a literal reading of Acts 1.
I do not believe Christ will "return for the the rapture" Im not sure that is even a dispensational teaching, Ive certainly never believed that. The rapture is not a "coming" of Christ.
Its a translation to heaven.
Mat 24:2 was fulfilled in 70ad, correct?
What chapters of Revelation were fulfilled, so I can cross examine for evidence on your part.
No Jew nor gentile during the grace age, However the 144000 that appear during the tribulation are all sealed jews and the kingdom will be returned to them.
Jesus is sitting Davids throne friend
Both Peter, and Hosea, from whence Peter quotes, are referring to the descendants of the ten northern tribes that were dwelling in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia at that time, which was affirmed by the Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus, who wrote, “the ten tribes are beyond the Euphrates till now, and are an immense multitude, and not to be estimated by numbers." Zechariah 10:7-9 is the source for the parable of the wheat and the tares in Matthew 13.
Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, 11.133.Can you give the reference for that quote from Josephus, Please?.
I don't know where you got the 7 year tribulation idea from.No, it's not neccessary. I just wanted to know where you stand with your eschatology. Didn't know if you're a preterist, a post-tribber or other.
If you're timing on the rapture is post-trib, I have no idea how anyone can argue dispensationalism because roughly 99% of end-time views between a pre-tribber and a "true" post-tribber are virtually identical. We all share the same ideas about a 7 year tribulation, we believe the Antichrist, mark of the beast, the return of Christ at the end of the tribulation are all future events as well as many many other similar end time views. Our only difference is the timing of the rapture.
All I'm saying is a true post-tribber cannot say dispensationalism is completely false. However, we do have a few lost pretenders that thinks the entire tribulation is 3.5 years, Christ returns in the middle of the tribulation and other wild & crazy ideas I've seen that don't fall inline with true post-trib beliefs claiming to be a post-tribber. They have far more differences compared to other post-tribbers and their only agreement is the timing of the rapture.
That's why I asked. I just wanted to know your position on the end times.
Thank you.Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, 11.133.
That word used in Ephe 4:30 is used in only 1 verse in the Gospels, the 70ad event in Luke 21. Did the Jews get raptured into the air?The Church and the 144,000
Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – the Church:
Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Just a couple of points. In the Morning watch magazine Edward Irving said he first preached on dispensationalism on Christmas day 1825. That was before Mary MacDonald's dream. The Irvingites believed the rapture would occur in the summer of 1833 and gathered together on the named day. (Robert Baxter, Irvingism in its rise and present state. 1836. Baxter was one of Irvings leading prophets till he realised the false teaching of the Irvignite, and accused himself of delusion and left the movement. A number of the Irving prophets confirmed the rapture teaching including Baxter.)During 1812 a book titled, The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty was published in Spanish under the pseudonym of Ben Ezra a converted Jew. The actual author was Manuel Lacunza, a Jesuit priest. During the 1820s Edward Irving, a Scottish minister, gained access to the book and came to value Lacunzas concepts within the book. He then had Lacunzas book translated into English. The English version was published in 1827 and included Irvings Preliminary Discourse as his commentary of the book. Irving was teaching doctrine based on the book in 1826 at a conference in Albury.
Irving taught a number of concepts from Lacunzas book at the Albury prophecy conference. He stated that some of the promises to the Jewish people had not yet been fulfilled. (Lacunza p. 336, 338) Lacunza had added the antichrist and a rebuilt temple to Daniel 9:27. (p.301) He stated at least 7 years would be needed for conversion of the Jews in the last days. (p. 316) He also stated the Jewish people would accept Christ as their messiah at his Second Coming. (p. 349) Irving used the term dispensation 13 times on page 63 of his Preliminary Discourse which accompanied Lacunzas book. The term is only used 4 times in the King James version of the Bible.
Lacunzas book Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty is available at
PDF Files
According to early members of the Plymouth Brethren, during 1830 a teenage girl named Margaret Macdonald reported a vision of a pretribulation gathering of believers. Margaret had been bedridden for some time. She wrote a letter to Irving reporting the details of her vision. The text of her vision is available from various sources. The Irvingites published the concept of a pretribulation gathering within the September 1830 edition of their publication known as, The Morning Watch. Verification is available at http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf
Edward Irving incorporated this pretrib rapture into his earlier teachings from Lacunzas book. Many today consider John Nelson Darby to be the Father of Dispensationalism, however it can be shown many of the key concepts were first taught by Edward Irving at the Albury conference. This is found in the text of Irvings Preliminary Discourse which was printed as a part of the English edition of Lacunzas book in 1827.
During the late 1820s John Darby had become ordained as a minister within the Anglican Church. Darby became disillusioned with the Anglican Church within a few years. According to Dispensationalist Dr. Charles Ryrie, Darby attended at least one of the Albury conferences. Edward Irving died in 1834. At some point Darby adopted Irvings teaching and later became its greatest promoter. He had become a part of a group known as the Plymouth Brethren, although later friction within the group caused division into smaller groups. Darby brought Dispensationalism to the United States around the time of the American Civil War.
Dispensationalism teaches a distinct separation between Israel and the Church, as well as the unfulfilled promises to the Jews and the pre-trib rapture of the Church. Darby believed that both Old Testament and New Testament saints would be raptured together, however later Dispensationalists changed this. Most Dispensationalists now teach that the Old Testament saints will be resurrected at Christs Second Coming.
At some point Dispensationalists made an additional change to the interpretation of the 9th Chapter of Daniel. They believe the 490 years of the 70 weeks has not yet been completed. A gap (sometimes called a parenthesis or The Church Age) was placed between the 69th and 70th week of the 490 year prophecy. Dispensationalists believe God will deal again with Israel during the future 70th week ( 7 years), after the pretrib rapture of the Church.
Some Dispensationalists claim there are two separate kingdoms. They believe Israel's kingdom will be on earth and the Church will be in another kingdom in heaven.
Dispensationalists state they use a more literal interpretation of scripture and insist that others spiritualize scripture more than is intended. They have also adopted the principle that Christians have always expected the any-moment return of Christ. This concept is known as Imminence.
One of the biggest changes in doctrine proposed by Dispensationalists is the idea that Jews and others who are present after the pretrib rapture of the Church will be given another chance at salvation, either during the 7 year tribulation period, or when Christ appears at his Second Coming. Most Christians before had only accepted the possibility of salvation on an individual basis, however Dispensationalists see the possibility of National Salvation for the Jewish people. They take this idea from Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved This is to occur at some point in the future after the pretrib rapture of the Church.
A pastor named C.I. Scofield incorporated Darbys Dispensational teachings into the notes of his Scofield Reference Bible which was published and sold on a massive scale. When people found these notes written in their Bible, many accepted the newer doctrine. Scofield also proposed a plan which divided the history of the Bible into 7 time periods or dispensations commonly referred to as economies by Dispensationalists.
Dallas Theological Seminary was established in 1924, and taught the new doctrine to future pastors. Lewis Sperry Chafer the first president of Dallas Theological had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church.
The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.
Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.
Chafer states that, Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne, that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.
Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.
John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated
"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.
John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25
During the last half of the 20th century authors such as Hal Lindsay and Tim LaHaye sold millions of copies of books and movies, based on the teachings of Dispensational Theology. The most popular were LaHayes The Left Behind series. Today many of these line the shelves of Christian homes and churches.
At present, many conservative church bodies throughout the U.S. have adopted some or most of the basic teachings of Dispensational Theology.
Very few Christians today know it all started with a book written by a Jesuit Priest and Edward Irvings translation and commentary of the book or that the pretribulation rapture doctrine was taught by Edward Irving during 1830, after a teenage girl claimed to have had a vision of a pretrib rapture.
PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) read pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418
Just a couple of points. In the Morning watch magazine Edward Irving said he first preached on dispensationalism on Christmas day 1825. That was before Mary MacDonald's dream. The Irvingites believed the rapture would occur in the summer of 1833 and gathered together on the named day. (Robert Baxter, Irvingism in its rise and present state. 1836. Baxter was one of Irvings leading prophets till he realised the false teaching of the Irvignite, and accused himself of delusion and left the movement. A number of the Irving prophets confirmed the rapture teaching including Baxter.)
I'm wondering if there's an answer for this question.Where do you find biblical support for this idea of "explicitly stated promises made to SOME" - and what is the distinction between this exclusive group and other faithful believers/adherents of His covenant?
I'm wondering if there's an answer for this question.
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