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Dispensationalism Refuted

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by JM, Oct 23, 2014.

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  1. Jerryhuerta

    Jerryhuerta Historicist Supporter

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    In response to Ephraim’s restoration in Zechariah 10:6 you stated.

    How are gentiles restored if they were never cast out of covenant relationship with God? Zechariah 10:6 pertains strictly to Judah and Jacob/Israel as the gentiles cannot be restored to a covenant relationship and a land, they were never privy to before Christ in the first place. The text in Zechariah doesn’t expressly state the two houses broke the covenant but this is comprehended through relevant texts such as Jeremiah 31:32, as the reason for being cast out. Again, the “gentile nations” were not given a covenant with God until the fulfillment of the one in Jeremiah 31:32 at the abolishment of the Mosaic covenant, at the first advent. Being cast out of the land and covenant in Zechariah can only pertain to Judah and Israel. Under the New Covenant, the gentiles can be joined to Israel and have an inheritance with Israel, but they cannot be restored to something they never had a right to prior to Christ, as the descendants of Abraham shall.

    This is the sloppy type of interpretation of supersessionism. This vindicates that being one with Christ does not destroy the prophecies of the restoration of Israel and the supersession of the Old Covenant does not end the promises to the ethnic descendants of Abraham. Both are fulfilled in bringing in the gentiles and making them one with ethnic descendants of Israel unless you want to backtrack on your admission that Zechariah 10:8-9be a gathering to Christ and a sowing of the great commission.” (post #253) It is Ephraim, the 10 tribes, Zechariah 10:8-9 is addressing and you have admitted they were gathered to Christ at the first advent, which is also a concession they were grafted in again according to Romans 11, your RT contradictions notwithstanding.

    As to the term “inherit” Isaiah 54:3, it's apparent you are having the same problem, as above, in understanding that when God has the rebellious gentiles bow down to Zion, it is tantamount to Zion inheriting the gentiles. Inherit means, take possession of, which is what Zion does when the rebellious gentiles bow down to it. I’m sorry you are not able to grasp this yet, but it might be the same problem as the restoration issue: sloppy interpretation.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
  2. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    First let's be clear about this...I'm not...nor would I ever assert that God is done with Israel according to the flesh. That is clear throughout scripture. However, I think the "read more carefully" applies to you Jerry. Remember what Paul clearly stated from Isaiah's prophecy earrlier at Romans 9:27, 28:
    27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “Though the number of the sons of Israel be like the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved;
    28 for the Lord will execute His word on the earth, thoroughly and quickly.”


    This passage is very clear...only a remnant of Israel "according to the flesh" will be saved. Even your reference above states as much. A remnant of Israel has been being saved since Christ ascended, and that will continue until the last day, as they of Israel who become saved, are elect as every believer is Jerry.

    The question is "who Is Israel from God's viewpoint?"God answered this long ago in Isaiah's prophecy at Isaiah 49:1-3. God stated who "Israel" would be under the New Covenant:
    Listen to Me, O islands, And pay attention, you peoples from afar. The Lord called Me from the womb; From the body of My mother He named Me.
    2 He has made My mouth like a sharp sword, In the shadow of His hand He has concealed Me; And He has also made Me a select arrow, He has hidden Me in His quiver.
    3 He said to Me, “You are My Servant, Israel, In Whom I will show My glory.”

    Christ is clearly declared to be "Israel" from His birth. Do you understand that? Therefore, the "Israel of God" is all who come to Christ regardless of nationality. This is why Paul draws the line about physical Israel, by calling them "his brethren ACCORDING TO THE FLESH" at Romans 9:3-5, if you read properly. Just as Jesus said at John 6:63..."It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life."

    The Israel of God is a spiritual matter...it has NOTHING to do with the flesh! Israel, who were formerly God's chosen under the Old Covenant, no longer are. Before and after the cross EVERY BELIEVER, Jew or Gentile are chosen. The difference is under the Old Covenant Gentiles became believers through Israel, Under the New Covenant ALL come to God through Christ. Peter has made that very clear at 1 Peter 2:9, 10.

    So you see it is you who are "reading Paul through the atrocious presuppositions of supersessionism and failing to recognize the promises to Israel were to the elect remnant in the first place and not to the vessels fit for destruction." This is because you don't take THE WHOLE of what God has said on the matter.

    You do realize this is a HYPOTHETICAL Paul is using here? That is clear by him saying What if... and again saying "and that He might"...Paul is careful here about what he doesn't know about the matter. The very point Paul is making here is that we Gentiles are NOT to make the same error Israel made, looking down our nose at Jews (or Gentiles for that matter), because we are of the New Covenant, saved by grace brother! Every Jew saved under the New Covenant, just as every Gentile, become of The Israel of God.

    How many times does Paul have to say "THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE" on this matter Jerry, before you heed that!

    What does Paul mean at Phillipians 3:3 Jerry...do you know?
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2019
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  3. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Holding that DNA supersedes faith and obedience is the true racial cultism.
     
  4. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Genesis 22:18 is unquestionably fulfilled in Christ:
    1. Christ, and He alone, is the sole and exclusive One in whom all of the nations of the earth are blessed.
    2. Confirmation of this reference to the “seed” (singular) being Christ is seen in Galatians 3:16.

    Any reference to the “seed” which relates specifically to Abraham's physical descendants (plural) is realized in the dispersion and ubiquity of the Abrahamic genome throughout the entire global human population today.
    Abraham lineage
    DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
    Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
    Jewish-Roots Arabs in Israel
    Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
    Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
    http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
    https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
    https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

    Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2019
  5. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    That verse is speaking of Yeshua, not the church. None of the prophets even knew about the concept of the "church". That was a mystery only revealed in the NT.

    In real estate, it is all about location, location, location. In scripture hermeneutics, it is all about context, context, context. And Isaiah 49:6 is buried in the context of Isaiah 49:5-7 and it is clearly speaking of Yeshua, not what could be construed as the "church". Trying to make the church fit in there is allegorical nonsense.
     
  6. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    You totally side stepped what the post was you are responding to.
     
  7. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    This post refutes itself.
    You say Christ is the Seed. Therefore we Christians are 'seeds of Christ, as Galatians 3:27 says: Baptized into union with Him, you have all put on Christ like a garment.

    Although I do agree with the ubiquity of Abe's genes, his descendants in God's sight, are just the faithful Christians. People from every race, nation and language. Revelation 7:9, Isaiah 66:18b-21
     
  8. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I say what Galatians 3:16, which is the verse I cited, says. It says Christ is the Seed.

    How does Galatians 3:16 refute itself?

    Who do you think the Seed is in Galatians 3:16?
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
  9. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    There always has been a 'church; a congregation, an ekkelasia, a kahal'; call the group of faithful believers what you like, your idea that such a thing is a mystery, is quite wrong.
    Since Jesus came it is the Christian peoples of every race, nation and language, who make up the true Church of God.
    You refute yourself! Saying that Christ is the Seed of Abraham, then; how everyone alive today is Abraham's descendant.
    Does not compute!
    Kinda obvious isn't it?, that there is a distinction between those whom God knows as 'seeds' of Christ and Abraham, are separate from those who may have, or claim to have Abraham as their ancestor, but who reject Jesus.
     
  10. Jerryhuerta

    Jerryhuerta Historicist Supporter

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    Typical response of putting words in someone’s mouth to win the argument. None of my posts can be truly construed as maintaining salvation is by biology. Even so, God chose the biological descendants of Abraham to bring salvation to the gentiles.

    And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, "'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'" Acts 13:46-47​

    The US would be the descendants of Abraham!
     
  11. Jerryhuerta

    Jerryhuerta Historicist Supporter

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    And if Abraham’s DNA is ubiquitous, how much more would the DNA of Jacob be in light of the promise of fecundity being passed down to him from Isaac, who inherited it from Abraham and ended up on Ephraim.

    God appeared to Jacob again, when he came from Paddan-aram, and blessed him. And God said to him, "Your name is Jacob; no longer shall your name be called Jacob, but Israel shall be your name." So he called his name Israel. And God said to him, "I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply. A nation and a company of nations shall come from you, and kings shall come from your own body. Genesis 35:9-10 ESV

    When Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand on the head of Ephraim, it displeased him, and he took his father's hand to move it from Ephraim's head to Manasseh's head. And Joseph said to his father, "Not this way, my father; since this one is the firstborn, put your right hand on his head." But his father refused and said, "I know, my son, I know. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great. Nevertheless, his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his offspring shall become a multitude of nations." Genesis 48:17-19
     
  12. Jerryhuerta

    Jerryhuerta Historicist Supporter

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    The NT affirms that Christ is the church. The church is in the OT, but only the spirit of God reveals the mystery.
     
  13. Jerryhuerta

    Jerryhuerta Historicist Supporter

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    Ebed, or whomever I address, your comments are rife with conflict. You cannot help but augment your comment that only Christ is “the Israel of God” and all who come to him, with the comment “A remnant of Israel has been being saved since Christ ascended, and that will continue until the last day.” (emphasis added) Your comments actually substantiate that God applies the term “Israel” to both Christ and the elect descendants of Jacob/Israel, and not to the exclusion of one for the other! I agree.

    Furthermore, your comments actually agree with my perception of Romans 9; a remnant of the biological descendants of Jacob are “the true Israel of God” and it was to these descendants to whom the promises to Abraham pertained, as opposed to those, in a manner of speaking, according to the flesh represented the reprobates that dwelt with them: For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel (Romans 9:6 ESV). Isaiah 49 also substantiates this if you read further.

    And now the LORD says, he who formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob back to him; and that Israel might be gathered to him--- for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD, and my God has become my strength---he says: "It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the preserved of Israel; I will make you as a light for the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth." Isaiah 49:5-6 ESV​

    God declared that “raising the tribes of Jacob” as too easy a task for Christ the Servant and tasks him further to save the elect gentiles, which substantiates, one, these tasks are conflated and, two, they commenced with the first advent just as you conceded and, three, the tribes of Jacob are the literal descendants of the patriarch Jacob, as they are discerned from the nations/gentiles. This agrees with Romans 11.

    I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew…. So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace…. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:1-2, 5, 29​

    According to Isaiah 49 and Amos 9, the sifting of Israel began with Christ’s first advent.

    Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from the surface of the ground, except that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob,"declares the LORD. "For behold, I will command, and shake the house of Israel among all the nations as one shakes with a sieve, but no pebble shall fall to the earth. All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, who say, 'Disaster shall not overtake or meet us.' Amos 9:8-10

    The sifting is a salvific phenomenon that separates the elect of Israel from those, in a manner of speaking, according to the flesh represented the reprobate that dwell with them. This is what was prophesied for this age and not the kingdom of David, the latter being the perception of this age by supersessionism. This is also corroborated by the prophecy of Zechariah 10-11, which I’ve been expositing upon. The biological descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are still God’s covenant people to which the gentiles are made co-heirs in this age, in fulfillment of Isaiah 49 and other texts in the book. We also learn that these “tribes of Jacob” are equated to Zion in Isaiah 49.

    But Zion said, "The LORD has forsaken me, And the Lord has forgotten me"…. "Then you will say in your heart, 'Who has begotten these for me, Since I have been bereaved of my children And am barren, an exile and a wanderer? And who has reared these? Behold, I was left alone; From where did these come?'" Isaiah 49:14, 21 ESV​

    This barren and exiled Zion is unveiled in Isaiah 54:1 as Ephraim/Israel, similarly personified as the barren and desolate woman. Any further substantive analysis bears out that Ephraim is viewed by God as the “nation” that bears the fruit of the vineyard, the fruit being the gentiles, in Matthew 21:43. While all are one in Christ, God views Zion/Ephraim/Israel (as opposed to Judah) as bearing the children of God in this age.

    But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel. Hebrews 12:22-24 ESV​

    Point being, supersessionism undermines prophecy and does not serve the true search for the proper interpretation of the Old and New Testaments. This is apparent from your comment: “Israel, who were formerly God's chosen under the Old Covenant, no longer are.”

    Again, Peter addressed the elect exiles of the dispersion (1 Peter 1:1) and cited from Hosea 2:23 in 1 Peter 2:10, which is indisputably about the tribes of Jacob, specifically Ephraim/Israel. The elect of Israel are merely being sifted in this age and preparing them and the gentiles who are joined to them to rule in the next.

    For the LORD most high is terrible; he is a great King over all the earth. He shall subdue the people under us, and the nations under our feet. He shall choose our inheritance for us, the excellency of Jacob whom he loved. Selah. Psalms 47:2-4
     
  14. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Ever get the idea that Zechariah 12:3 is probably the best example of how we are in the end times? Just to read and listen to those that rant against physical Hebrews, Israel, claim they are imposters and that the nations are really the Israelites, etc, all I see in my mind is what good 'ol Zeke wrote. I would expect that from the world, but amazing that it comes a lot from those who claim to be in the Body.
     
  15. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Please quote verse(s) that say the Body of Messiah (the redeemed that make up what we call today the "church") is in the OT. The NT says explicitly that the concept of the "church" was a mystery. In scripture, a mystery is something that had not before been revealed. The Prophets had no concept of what we know as a the Body of Messiah which is made up of the redeemed which are also known as the "church".
     
  16. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There were two groups in the descendants of Abraham.

    1. The unfaithful and disobedient.
    2. The faithful and obedient.

    Which group do you think Paul, Barnabas, and US belonged to?

    Eschewing (**) (Biological Supersessionism)?

    Would Paul and Barnabas have refused to permit any Gentiles who had already been converted, to assist in the task of evangelizing other Gentiles?

    I'm sure you know the answer.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
  17. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Of course. Jacob's DNA is ubiquitous as well, he being removed only two generations from Abraham. We all possess it.

    Which renders it null, void, and irrelevant as a covenant condition and criterion.

    Thanks for further affirming the reality of the covenant irrelevance of DNA.
     
  18. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    For some reason you ignored the following question, so I'll repeat it for you:

    Who do you think the Seed is in Galatians 3:16?


    Everyone alive is Abraham's physical descendant.

    But certainly not his spiritual descendant, unless they are in Christ (Galatians 3:29).

    I thought you knew the difference.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
  19. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Where is your response to the question I have asked multiple times now?

    When is Ephraim made desolate and barren if it's not when Assyria exiled them?



    Through Adam, condemnation came for all men.

    Romans 5:12-14 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned. For sin was in the world before the law was given; but sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who did not sin in the way that Adam transgressed. He is a pattern of the One to come.

    Romans 5:18 Therefore, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men.


    The old covenant, which was an agreement between God and the nation of Israel, did not restore the condemnation of all men through Adam. For if it did, there would be no need for Christ's 1st advent.

    Hebrews 7:18-19 For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.


    Romans 5:20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more

    The law was only a guardian until Christ came.
    Galatians 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith

    Only under the new covenant through Christ could men be restored to God.

    Romans 5:19 For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.

    ***Thus, through Adam, all men were cast out from a restored relationship with God, regardless of old covenant with the nation of Israel.

    I agree, but we must interpret the breaking of the old covenant in light of the new covenant, as the old covenant didn't bring about restoration.

    Hebrews 7:18-19 For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.

    Romans 5:20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more

    The nation of Israel broke the old covenant, and the curses were poured out on them. The house of Israel was divorced and they became as gentiles (not my people), but the house of Judah remained under the old covenant.

    I agree the gentile nations were not made fellow heirs through the old covenant.

    However, The gentiles were given a promise prior to the old covenant. **Notice Paul includes not only the adherents of the law but those who have faith: many nations, as the offspring of Abraham.

    Romans 4:16-17 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all HIS offspringnot only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist

    This was just not known prior to the new covenant, as the spirit and not fully revealed it yet.

    Ephesians 3:4-6 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are fellow heirs, fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus.

    I agree, and I would add: Only in regards to the old covenant. For the promises to Abraham are unconditional and the new covenant has no mention of conditional land promises.


    absolutely agree

    The land is God's and it's His right to do with what he pleases.
    Leviticus 25:23 The land shall not be sold in perpetuity, for the land is mine. For you are strangers and sojourners with me.

    And it just so happens, that it pleased Him to unconditionally promised the land to Christ.
    galatians 3:16 Now the promises (plural) were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.

    2 Corinthians 1:20 For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory

    And now, through Christ, the new covenant provides better promises then the old covenant.
    Hebrews 8:6 But as it is, Christb has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises

    The belief that the old covenant was superseded by the new covenant is not "sloppy" interpretation, as scripture is very clear that this happened:

    Hebrews 8:6-7 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

    Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

    "sloppy" interpretation would be to replace Jesus as the heir of ALL things with national biological Israel.

    I agree that being one with Christ does not destroy the prophecies of the restoration of Israel, in fact, I believe it fulfills it.

    Colossian 1:18-20 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

    I agree that the supersession of the old covenant by the new covenant does not end the promises to the biological descendants, in fact I believe it fulfills it.

    galatians 3:17 What I mean is this: The law that came 430 years later does not revoke the covenant previously established by God, so as to cancel the promise

    Both are fulfilled by Christ.

    By God gathering the gentiles and grafting them into Christ, of which many of the ephraimites had been scattered to for 700 years, God fulfills his promise to Ephraim and to the many gentile nations. This is not RT theology.

    **Also you didn't address the question I had for you. As romans 11 no where mentions Ephraim, do you believe the term gentiles is equivalent to Ephraim?

    It is also apparent that you are having a problem surmounting that it is Jesus who inherits the nations.

    Psalm 2:7-8 will tell of the decree: The Lord said to me, “You are my Son; today I have begotten you.
    Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession.

    Psalm 82:8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth, for all the nations are Your inheritance.

    It is Christ who inherits the nations and if you are in Christ, then you are co-heirs. Thus outside of Christ, we inherit nothing.

    Romans 8:17 And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ—if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him.

    No need to apologize. It just seems we disagree on what the "restoration" is.
     
  20. Jerryhuerta

    Jerryhuerta Historicist Supporter

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    "No one after lighting a lamp covers it with a jar or puts it under a bed, but puts it on a stand, so that those who enter may see the light. For nothing is hidden that will not be made manifest, nor is anything secret that will not be known and come to light. Take care then how you hear, for to the one who has, more will be given, and from the one who has not, even what he thinks that he has will be taken away." Luke 8:16-18
     
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