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Dispensationalism Refuted

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by JM, Oct 23, 2014.

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  1. Jerryhuerta

    Jerryhuerta Historicist Supporter

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    Exactly my point; the promises and prophecies were to the faithful elect. Which is why the RT notion that Israel failed is bogus.
     
  2. Jerryhuerta

    Jerryhuerta Historicist Supporter

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    No, what it proves is that distance does not destroy the fact they are descendants and God knows who they are.
     
  3. Jerryhuerta

    Jerryhuerta Historicist Supporter

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    You comment that I’m not responding as to when Ephraim is made desolate in relation to Isaiah 54:1 and I keep stating the chapter is not about when Ephraim is made desolate but prophecies the future when the desolation ends: asked and answered. When Ephraim is made desolate is irrelevant.

    The condemnation that came through Adam is not directly related to the restoration of the descendants of Abraham in Zechariah 10:6-10. The subject of Zechariah is not the fall of man, but Judah and Ephraim's being cast off for breaking the Mosaic covenant. You are off point. This is overt side-stepping and grasping at straws. Ephraim was cast off hundreds of years before Judah is cast off again in the first century for breaking the Mosaic covenant. Zechariah 10:6 pertains to the two houses being cast out of the land for breaking the Mosaic covenant and only they can be restored in fulfillment of Zechariah. Again, the gentiles can be joined to Israel and have an inheritance with Israel, but they cannot be restored to something they never had a right to prior to Christ, as the descendants of Abraham had.

    Furthermore, you agree Ephraim is gathered in Christ and then sown in verses 8-9 as the great commission but verses 6 and 10-11 clearly establish their restoration is tied to God bringing them back from this scattered circumstance; that’s what the language plainly states. Again, the gentiles were never scattered, they were alien to the land of Israel. Your feeble attempt to maintain their restoration is fulfilled by being made one with Christ does not bring them back from this scattered circumstance, in fulfillment of Zechariah 10:6, 10-11. Their being made one with Christ fulfills their redemption in verse 8, but it does not bring them back from being scattered. The parallel text of Amos 9:8-10 maintains they are sifted in the nations until God is ready to bring them back, which pertains strictly to Judah and Ephraim and not the gentiles. Your responses are clearly from replacement theology, RT.

    You have noted I do not address every nuance of your posts because I find much of them irrelevant. I find that most people have a problem staying on point so I’m not going to indulge this tendency dealing with irrelevant issues, but focus on the greatest errors. I must say that you do better than most though.

    And finally, Ephraim inherits the gentiles.

    For the LORD most high is terrible; he is a great King over all the earth. He shall subdue the people under us, and the nations under our feet. He shall choose our inheritance for us, the excellency of Jacob whom he loved. Selah. Psalms 47:2-4
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
  4. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Absolutely true.

    RT affirms that the unfaithful and disobedient of Israel failed.

    It affirms that the faithful and obedient of Israel succeeded.
     
  5. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    True. He knows that the physical DNA is found within every one of us.

    He also knows that the spiritual DNA is not.
     
  6. Jerryhuerta

    Jerryhuerta Historicist Supporter

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    And the promises and prophecies were to the elect so the failure of the doomed did not take the kingdom from Israel, it only changed hands and was given to Ephraim in Matthew 21:43.
     
  7. Jerryhuerta

    Jerryhuerta Historicist Supporter

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    And that's how he keeps his promises and the prophecies are sure.
     
  8. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This Ephraim? It's the only one in the NT.

    John 11:54
    Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews; but went thence unto a country near to the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim, and there continued with his disciples.
     
  9. Jerryhuerta

    Jerryhuerta Historicist Supporter

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    Asked and answered. Ephraim was used in the OT as one of the “titles” for Israel in texts such as Isaiah 11:13; Hosea 5:5, 5:12-14, 6:4, 10:11, 11:12; Ezekiel 37:16-19 and Zechariah 9:13, 10:6. Israel is also given the “title” of Joseph and Jacob. Here’s one correlative example.

    For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. (Hebrews 8:8)​
     
  10. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Matthew 21:43 describes an NT event.

    If it is referring to Ephraim, then we should expect to find some NT elaboration about who or what Ephraim is.

    We find NT elaboration about Ephraim in John 11:54.

    If John 11:54 is not the Ephraim that you claim is in Matthew 21:43, then your interpretation is unsupportable.
     
  11. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Yes, it refers to a nation, a specific people group; the ones that bear the proper fruit.
    They are Christians who will come out of every race, nation and language, all the Israel of God, and in order for God to fulfil His promise to the Patriarchs, the majority will have direct ancestry to the House of Israel.
    Red herring alert!
    The name of a town where Ephraim may have been, is irrelevant.
     
  12. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    True. AKA the Church, whose members bear the fruit of the Spirit.

    True again. Also irrelevant is Ephraim as a nation, nowhere seen in the NT.

    The nation of Matthew 21:43 is the nation of 1 Peter 2:9.

    The company of the redeemed.

    The faithful and obedient.

    The Church.
     
  13. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    The nation of Israel broke the Sinai Covenant only. The Abrahamic Covenant is an unconditional covenant, as is the Davidic Covenant.

    It is improper to lump all these into something called the “old covenant” which is a name given by translators to the section of the the Bible that contains the Torah, the Writings, and the Prophets.
     
  14. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    It's actually very relevant to the topic, which to me seems why you keep avoiding to answer it.

    The topic, that we have been discussing, has been the children of the barren and desolate woman, and the identity of the said barren and desolate woman and her children.

    When Ephraim becomes barren and desolate is very important because it tells us how God defines the children of the barren and desolate woman.

    Ephraim was divorced and scattered by God through Assyria. If this is when Ephraim became barren and desolate, then the offspring of Ephraim, to which Isaiah 54:1 prophesies about, are solely considered offspring through being birthed into the New covenant. They would not be considered offspring outside of Christ.

    I would disagree. the condemnation that came through Adam is the reason the descendants of Abraham could not keep the Mosaic Covenant. All men were condemned through Adam and made sinners. The Mosaic covenant (the law) was given not to restore sinners, but to increase sin and become a school master Until Christ came.

    Romans 5:18-20 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

    Galatians 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith


    The conditional promises under the Mosaic covenant do not annul the unconditional promises to Abraham and his offspring, because Christ is the offspring to whom they were spoken.

    Galatians 3:16 Now the promises (PLURAL) were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ

    But it's the reason they could not keep the Mosaic covenant.

    Why could Judah and Ephraim not keep the Mosaic covenant? Because death came through Adam making the many to become sinners. The Mosaic covenant could not reverse the condemnation through Adam.

    Hebrews 8:7-8 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second. For he finds fault with them when he says:c

    Hebrews 7:11 Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron?

    Hebrews 7:118-19 For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.

    So what are Judah and Israel being restored to through Christ? Not the old covenant blessings, as the old covenant was made obsolete.

    hint, they are being restored to the same promises that were promised to all who are in Christ, those who are Jew and gentile.

    Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

    subjective statement, I could say the same thing to you. let's stick to objective statements.

    Correct.

    Both houses were cast out of the land: Ephraim by Assyria and Judah by Babylon.

    This is simply untrue. The promise to Abraham includes the gentile nations.

    Romans 4:16-17 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—

    galatians 3:27-29 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

    What doesn't include the gentiles being fellow heirs is the mosaic covenant. While, the gentiles were allowed to participate in the Mosaic covenant, it did not make them fellow heirs of the conditional promises of the Mosaic covenant.

    Yup, I agree.

    Yup. It just seems we disagree on what the gathering is to. I believe the gathering is to Christ becoming one body under one Head. you seem to believe the gathering is to the physical land of Israel in the future.

    To confirm your interpretation of Zechariah is correct, you should easily be able to provide NT scripture that confirms the present physical land of Israel is the eternal destination.

    I agree. I would add that while the gentiles could partake in the mosaic covenant, they were never fellow heirs of the conditional promises of the mosaic covenant.

    Good, we agree.

    I disagree. The body of Christ is one unit under one Head. The greek word for church is literally gathering.

    1 Corinthians 12:12-13 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

    I agree, they were sifted among nations following the Assyrian and Babylonian Exile. Who said the gentiles were sifted among the nations?

    and yours are clearly from British Israelism.

    The questions I have asked have been very relevant. If at any time you believe one my questions is irrelevant, simply ask and I can clarify as I did in the beginning of this post.

    Thank you.

    This doesn't surmount that it is Jesus who inherits the nations. This simply states he subdues the nations under our feet. It doesn't say what the inheritance is, but simply that God will choose our inheritance.
     
  15. Jerryhuerta

    Jerryhuerta Historicist Supporter

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    2 Timothy 3
    16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, ESV​

    As I’ve shown, Ephraim is another name for the ten-tribe northern “nation” of Israel. The “nation” in Matthew 21:43 is not revealed; it was left for God to reveal it in his appointed time. The supersessionist’s opinion of the nation fails because they view only the Jews, a one house perception of the covenant people of God at the first advent. But there are a great number of texts concerning both houses that they don’t account for, including the ones that maintain Ephraim finds grace in the wilderness before Judah and this evidence is just one part of the puzzle that vindicates the nation in Matthew 21:43 is Ephraim.

    "At that time, declares the LORD, I will be the God of all the clans of Israel, and they shall be my people." Thus says the LORD: "The people who survived the sword found grace in the wilderness; when Israel sought for rest, the LORD appeared to him from far away. I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you…. With weeping they shall come, and with pleas for mercy I will lead them back, I will make them walk by brooks of water, in a straight path in which they shall not stumble, for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn. Jeremiah 31:1-3, 9​
     
  16. Jerryhuerta

    Jerryhuerta Historicist Supporter

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    Again, when Ephraim became desolate is irrelevant in interpreting Isaiah 54:1. Your acknowledgment that the children are party to the New Covenant (NC) is a concession the chapter pertains to the same redemption in Zechariah 10:8, not when Ephraim became desolate but when their desolation ended as a nation.

    There’s no doubt Israel couldn’t keep the covenant because of Adam’s fall, but that still doesn’t make the gentiles a party in Zechariah 6 and 10-11. Only Judah and Israel were cast out of the land for breaking the Mosaic Covenant and only they can be brought back for the diaspora in fulfillment of the promise. Zechariah is strictly speaking in ethnic terms which, is why your supersessionist invention is untenable. The NT abolishes the ordinances that separated Israel from the nations making ethnicity irrelevant and supersessionism erroneously views the OT through this NT lens, which is what you are doing. Such an interpretation makes a mockery of the grammatical-historical intent. The OT must be viewed primarily through the Old Covenant lens that maintains ethnicity, which is the grammatical-historical intent, and then add to it what the NT reveals that the prophets did not see, which doesn’t disturb the initial intent. British Israelism maintains the latter.

    You came to the conclusion with my help that Zechariah 10:8-9 is a gathering to Christ and the sowing the great commission. The gathering in verse 8 IS their redemption but the chapter also promises the God will bring them back from their scattered condition. You’re side-stepping the part where God brings them back, which is witnessed by all of the prophets because it doesn’t fit your supersessionist presupposition of reading the OT through the NT lens. The gentiles can join the ethnic descendants when God brings them back, but the promise of their return belong specifically to the elect ethnic descendants.

    Again, the gentiles can be joined to Israel and have an inheritance with Israel, but they cannot be restored to something they never had a right to prior to Christ, as the descendants of Abraham had. You haven’t surmounted this with Romans 4:16-17, which speaks of justification by faith and not the “restoration to the land” in Zechariah 10. Galatian 3:28-29 affirms the elect gentiles are joined to Israel and have an inheritance, but they still cannot be restored to something they never had a right to prior to Christ, as the descendants of Abraham had.

    As to Psalms 47:2-4, when taken with Amos 9:11-12 the inheritance is the gentiles.

    "In that day I will raise up the booth of David that is fallen and repair its breaches, and raise up its ruins and rebuild it as in the days of old, that they may possess the remnant of Edom and all the nations who are called by my name," declares the LORD who does this. Amos 9:11-12

    The “they” would be the church, which is comprised of the elect descendants of Israel and the elect gentiles who are joined to them. So when Christ inherits the gentiles it has two implications; number one, he inherits a chosen number of gentiles who are made fellow citizens of Israel (Ephesian 2:19), and number two, he inherits the nations/gentiles who are ruled by him and the Israel mentioned previously in number one, which substantiates the British Israelism interpretation that Ephraim inherits the gentiles in Isaiah 54:3; Ephraim is the nation that bears the fruit of the vineyard, the gentiles, in Matthew 21:43, and they co-reign with Christ in Revelation 2:26-27.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
  17. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Ephraim still existed when God divorced them and scattered them, but outside of the mosaic covenant, Ephraim was considered desolate and barren, with no offspring, even though the literal offspring of the 10 northern tribes still existed.

    Thus it is only under the new covenant through Jesus that offspring are considered. and ALL those who are in Christ are one, not two peoples as you seem to promote.

    galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slaveg nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus

    And if they are one in Christ, they receive the same promises through Abraham, not separate as you seem to promote.

    Galatians 3:29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

    Offspring are only counted under the new covenant through Christ. Outside of the new covenant through Christ, offspring are not counted. Do you agree?

    Where did I say the redemption occurs at the desolation of Ephraim by Assyria and not when the desolation ends?

    Good, we agree. Nor could the mosaic covenant restore the condemnation of sin and death brought about by adam.

    I agree. the House of Israel was cast out by Assyria. The House of Judah was cast out by Babylon.

    I don't disagree that Zechariah 10 is speaking in strictly ethnic terms.

    Additionally, I didn't invent the new covenant superseding the old covenant. The Bible states that as a fact. Even you agree, that the mosaic covenant was superseded by the new covenant.

    I agree

    Types and antitypes. The type is reading through the OT with the understanding of the mosaic covenant and how the promises of the mosaic covenant relate to the future. The antitype is reading through the OT with the understanding of the new covenant and how the promises of the old covenant are revealed through Christ to those of the new covenant. That the mosaic covenant was merely a shadow.

    Examples:

    1.) Reading Ezekiel through the type with the understanding of the mosaic covenant leads us to believe that God's future dwelling with man is in a brick and mortar temple, just as it had been under the mosaic covenant.

    Ezekiel 37:27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be My people
    Ezekiel 43:6-7 While the man was standing beside me, I heard someone speaking to me from inside the temple, and He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place for the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the Israelites forever

    However, reading Ezekiel through the antitype with the understanding of the new covenant leads us to see that believers, and not a brick and mortar building, are the temple of God.

    2 Corinthians 6:16 For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them
    and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be My people.”

    2.) Reading Amos through the type with the understanding of the mosaic covenant leads us to believe that David's fallen tent being rebuilt is a literal building that leads to the remnant of Edom being possessed.

    Amos 9:11-12 “In that day I will restore the fallen tent of David. I will repair its gaps, restore its ruins,
    and rebuild it as in the days of old, so that they may possess the remnant of Edom and all the nations that bear My name

    However, reading Amos through the antitype with the understanding of the new covenant leads us to believe that Christ dying, rising, and ascending restored david's fallen tent so that the gentiles, in Simon's time, were becoming believers.

    Acts 15:14-18 Simona has told us how God first visited the Gentiles to take from them a people to be His own. The words of the prophets agree with this, as it is written: ‘After this I will return
    and rebuild the fallen tent of David. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it, so that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear My name, says the Lord who does these things
    that have been known for ages.’b

    3.) Reading Hosea through the type with the understanding of the mosaic covenant leads us to believe that God is only referring to the 10 northern tribes being restored to God's people.

    hosea 2:23 I will say to those called ‘Not My People,’i ‘You are My people,’ and they will say,
    ‘You are my God.’”

    Reading Hosea through the antitype with the understanding of the new covenant leads us to believe that including the gentiles in the body of Christ fulfills hosea's promise of Ephraim being restored as God's people.

    Romans 9:24-25 including us, whom He has called not only from the Jews, but also from the Gentiles?As He says in Hosea: “I will call them ‘My People’ who are not My people, and I will call her ‘My Beloved’ who is not My beloved,”h


    you are free to believe being born again involves literally coming through your mother's womb a 2nd time.

    You did? Thanks?

    Through the death of Christ.

    John 11:51-52 Caiaphas did not say this on his own. Instead, as high priest that year, he was prophesying that Jesus would die for the nation, and not only for the nation, but also for the scattered children of God, to gather them together into one.

    How so?

    Is the promise of their return rooted in the Abrahamic promise or the Mosaic covenant?

    If you answer Abrahamic promise, then you haven't surmounted my argument as Paul reveals the promises to Abraham are also to the nations, which include the gentiles through Christ. .


    Romans 4:16-17 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—

    If you answer the Mosiac covenant, then you still haven't surmounted my argument, as the mosaic covenant was made obsolete.

    Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

    Acts 15:12-18 has this fulfilled in the first century.

    Finally. Was that so hard to agree?
     
  18. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    But is it too hard for you to agree that the majority of the people who do come in faith to Christ, are actual Israelites?
    God told Abraham that it would be thru Isaac's line that his name would be perpetuated. Genesis 21:12
    Paul said that at the conversion of some Gentiles in Antioch, who quite probably were from the 10 Tribes, as they were the start of the great move of Christianity, now throughout the world.
    The Jewish people did not and do not accept Jesus, so they will be thrown out of the Kingdom. Matthew 8:11
     
  19. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The true significance of God's choice of Isaac had nothing to do with genetics. Rather, Isaac was the "child of promise", a product of the faith and obedience of Abraham and Sarah. Faith, because both Abraham and Sarah believed God's promise that Abraham would sire a son even though both of them were well beyond the point of physical capability. (Hebrews 11:11-12) Obedience, because Abraham was willing to obey God's instructions to sacrifice Isaac, in apparent violation of His own promise. Yet in further faith he obeyed to the point where God's intervention was elicited. (Hebrews 11:17-19). God's response was to honor all three of them by choosing Isaac's lineage to be that through which Messiah would come.

    Hebrews 11
    11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
    12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
    17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
    18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
    19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

    We then further see Isaac, the "child of promise", continue his parents' spiritual legacy to also become a spiritual progenitor of those of faith and obedience in and to Christ -- His Church -- His "children of promise" heirs:

    Romans 9:7-8
    7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
    8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
    Galatians 4:28
    Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
    Galatians 3:29
    And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
    Romans 8:16-17
    16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
    17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.

    Thus Isaac, in the full tradition of his parents Abraham and Sarah, continued their legacies of faith and obedience, to the benefit of us all who follow in their spiritual footsteps.
     
  20. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    But it does.
    However, I do realize that the concept of people being having a traceable line of descent from Jacob and his 12 sons, is difficult for some to comprehend.
    It isn't given to us to know our ancestors that far back, but we are assured that God knows them. Amos 9:9 is proof positive.

    The other proof is how those people will be Redeemed, Restored and Resettled into their own Land. The wording of most of the prophesies make it quite clear that they are people that God knew, that He exiled for a set, decreed time for their sins, Ezekiel 4:4, then He would forgive their iniquities and they would be His people again.
    Aliens would join them, as they always have done. Isaiah 56:1-8
    Scriptures like that show the obvious fact that there are a people who God watches over; that He sent Jesus to save, Matthew 15:24, THEY will listen to the Gospel and trusting in God, become faithful Christians. Just as we are today!
     
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