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Dispensationalism Refuted

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by JM, Oct 23, 2014.

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  1. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    True, there are no "two peoples of God" within the Ekklesia or redeemed body of Messiah, but one cannot reasonably impose that on the entire world outside of the Ekklesia. Else the entirety of scripture falls like a house of cards.

    Did you not read any of the verses I posted or linked to? And you can honestly then say that there are no distinctions regarding the Hebrew people and the nations (another word in scripture for gentiles or racial ethnicities)? Or are you that obstinate against the Lord?

    First, for your assertion to even be considered as a possibility, the test of the Torah must be met. Before a matter can be established, it requires the testimony of two or more witnesses.

    The Bereans affirmed that model in the Book of Acts. They searched the scripture (OT) daily to see if what Paul (NT) taught them was true. The Holy Spirt commended them for that. Two witnesses per the Torah requirement.... the OT and the NT.

    So, for you to support your assertion that there is no distinct Hebrew people any longer, you have to provide evidentiary support from the OT also. No, the Jeremiah passage you referred to was in regard to the Mosaic / Sinai Covenant. It has nothing to do with the Abrahamic Covenant which is the one that established the Hebrew people as a unique identity from among the nations. Let's take a look at good 'ol Jere's comments...

    Jeremiah 31:32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,

    That is the Mosaic / Sinai Covenant. It was conditional on Israel's compliance. But the Abrahamic Covenant (Genesis 15) is unconditional. It couldn't be abrogated by the Hebrews if they tried. It is conditional on YHVH's honor and word, His promise to Abraham. The Davidic Covenant (2 Samuel 7) is another unconditional Covenant made by YHVH. It conditional only on YHVH's word of honor to King David.

    You really need to get a grip on the various covenants in scripture. The "old covenant" was not the entirety of the bible from Genesis to Malachi. It was a specific covenant that was old and no longer applies... the Mosaic / Sinai covenant. Jeremiah states that matter of factly.

    There is indeed a unique Hebrew people. There is a unique gentile people. And there is a unique entity called the redeemed body of Messiah / ekklessia / church that is neither Jew or Gentile. Can it really be that difficult to see that?
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2019
  2. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "AND TO YOUR SEED," who is Christ.
    Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.
    Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
    Gal 3:19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
    Gal 3:20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
    Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
    Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
    Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
    Gal 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
    Gal 3:25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
    Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
    Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
    Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
    Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


    Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.

    .
     
  3. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Well, lots to look at.

    BAB, again, you failed to provide substantive proof from both OT and NT that there is no longer a unique Hebrew people. If you don’t like that evidentiary requirement, take it up with the author of the Bible who established that requirement.

    Jgr, I am not really concerned what anyone, including Jews have to input on the matter. It is YHVH’s responsibility to uphold His promises. And I am reminded of Elijah....

    1 Kings 19:14-18
    And he said, “I have been very zealous for the Lord God of hosts; because the children of Israel have forsaken Your covenant, torn down Your altars, and killed Your prophets with the sword. I alone am left; and they seek to take my life.”
    Then the Lord said to him: “Go, return on your way to the Wilderness of Damascus; and when you arrive, anoint Hazael as king over Syria. Also you shall anoint Jehu the son of Nimshi as king over Israel. And Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abel Meholah you shall anoint as prophet in your place. It shall be that whoever escapes the sword of Hazael, Jehu will kill; and whoever escapes the sword of Jehu, Elisha will kill. Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.”

    I am quite confident that YHVH knows who are the Hebrew people and is preserving them for His purpose. Either He is able to uphold His word of honor or not. Not in my pay grade to worry about it. It is His name on the line.

    So it comes to a simple choice, believe YHVH or believe men. Everyone is free to decide. But those decisions may have spiritual consequences.
     
  4. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You can be guaranteed that among the 7,000 were those who were "not of Abraham's seed". (Genesis 17:12)

    The 7,000 were not distinguished by physical DNA.

    They were distinguished by spiritual DNA.

    Faith and obedience.

    The only covenant DNA that God has ever recognized.
     
  5. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    I just had a realization that what is going on is the Doctrine of Transsubstantiation on steroids.

    Where before it was limited to the concept that the bread and wine literally turns into the body and blood of Yeshua, it has morphed into the idea that those who join with Yeshua are now literally the blood descendants of Avraham, Yitzak, and Ya’acov.

    It no longer is a doctrinal idea that we become the spiritual seed of Avraham thru the same faith as Avraham.

    How convenient! Lay claim to promises intended for the physical Hebrews, discount the realization of real Hebrew descendants, and call YHVH a liar all at the same time. I think I have a bead on it now.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2019
  6. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Evidently you consider Paul et al and the Holy Spirit who inspired them to be liars. We're just reiterating what they said.
     
  7. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    No, you are imposing more onto what the HS said. Romans 9, 10, and 11, Paul goes to great effort to show that YHVH is not thru with literal Jacob (Israel). The OT is replete with passages how literal Jacob (Israel) will be restored to the land and the Branch of David (Yeshua) will literally, physically rule over them.

    To negate those promises that YHVH made is to call Him a liar. They had an opportunity to grab onto that almost 2000 years ago but blew it. But YHVH still will make it happen as He promised.
     
  8. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Mat 21:42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED HAS BECOME THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE. THIS WAS THE LORD'S DOING, AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES' ?
    Mat 21:43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.


    That nation which accepts the "chief cornerstone" is found in 1 Peter 2:4-10.

    .
     
  9. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Why not start with Genesis 17:12, and tell us what "not of thy seed" means?
     
  10. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    I would argue Paul goes through great lengths in chapters 9-11 to show who true Israel is.

    Paul makes it very clear that NOT all of Israel is true Israel. Only the children of the promise are true Israel

    Romans 9:6-8 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

    Paul makes it clear that only a remnant of Israel would be saved.
    Romans 9:27-29 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israelc be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” And as Isaiah predicted,“If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,we would have been like Sodom and become like Gomorrah.”

    Paul clearly states there is no distinction between Jew and gentile. The only distinction comes from those who accept or reject Christ.
    Romans 10:12-13 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

    Paul clearly states gentiles were grafted into the same root of the olive tree as national Israel who accepted Christ. NOT a different tree.
    Romans 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree

    So, how is ALL of Israel saved.......
    Romans 11:25-27 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a hardening in part has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: The Deliverer will come from Zion,
    he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;“and this will be my covenant with them
    when I take away their sins.”

    .......And yet only a remnant saved?

    Romans 9:27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israelc be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved.

    Because true Israel is the seed (singular) along with all of those, jew/greek, male/female, that belong to the singular seed.

    Galatians 3:16,28-29 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ
    There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slaveg nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

    According to Paul, when was disobedient national Israel receiving mercy? "Now" during the 1st century. Read through the book of Acts and you can see the thousands of hebrews turning to Christ.
    Romans 11:30-31 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.

    All prophecies about the return to the land seem mentioned prior and during the Babylonian Exile. Israel was restored to the land upon return from Babylonian exile

    Do any of the POST EXILE prophets (Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi) mention another exile followed by another return to the land? This may help your case.

    _________________________________________________________________________________
    Revelation states Jesus is the ruler of the kings of the earth. Ephesians has Jesus above all rule in this age AND the next. I would say that Jesus is literally physically ruling over all, above every rule.
    Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.

    Ephesians 1:20-22 and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.


    which promises specifically?
     
  11. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Genesis 17:12
    He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised, every male child in your generations, he who is born in your house or bought with money from any foreigner who is not your descendant.

    How does that negate the Abrahamic Covenant? How does that negate that there is a literal Hebrew people?
     
  12. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    True only a remnant will be saved. Have you not read in scripture where 2/3 of the Hebrew people will be killed during the Tribulation period?

    Promises? Try Genesis 15, 2 Samuel 7, Jeremiah 33:14-26 for starters. Much more than these but I am doing this on the fly at work
     
  13. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Paul clearly states the promises given to Abraham were to his seed (singular) who is Christ
    galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,” meaning One, who is Christ

    Paul also states that if you belong to Christ then you are also inheritors of the promise.
    Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

    So how does anyone inherit the promises given to Abraham and his seed (Christ), without belonging to Christ?

    How would a natural Israelite who rejected Jesus inherit the promises given to Abraham and Christ, outside of Christ?

    I guess we should determine what the promises of God given to Abraham are.

    Here we see the first promise(s) (not covenant) made by God.
    Genesis 12:2-3 And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.

    Paul has this promise fulfilled by Christ through the gentiles (all nations being blessed) coming to faith.
    Galatians 3:7-9 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
    _______________________________________________________________________________

    God also promised to give the land of Canaan to his offspring.
    Genesis 12:7 Then the Lord appeared to Abram and said, “To your offspring I will give this land.”

    This promise of the land was fulfilled in its "type" (immediate context)
    Joshua 21:43 Thus the Lord gave to Israel all the land that he swore to give to their fathers. And they took possession of it, and they settled there.

    It was fulfilled in the antitype (fulfillment in Christ) When Jesus rose from the dead and ascended to heaven, he was given ALL authority over heaven AND EARTH and he was put above ALL rule and dominion.
    Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

    Ephesians 1:20-22 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church,

    Hebrews 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

    Now genesis doesn't say "to your offspringS", but "to your offspring", who is Christ. Thus, when Christ was raised on high will ALL authority in heaven and ON EARTH, the land of Israel counts as part of earth.

    Genesis 12:7 Then the Lord appeared to Abram and said, “To your offspring I will give this land.”

    Galatians 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.

    The earth is the Lords and the FULLNESS THEREOF. Jesus was made Lord, the earth is his. That includes the land of Israel
    1 Corinthians 10:26 for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and the fullness thereof.”
    Acts 2:36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ
     
  14. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Good we agree. So how do you reconcile only a remnant being saved, with all of Israel being saved, 2 seemingly polar opposite statements?

    Romans 9:27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israelc be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved

    Romans 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved,

    I have, so how then is ALL Israel saved?

    Technically this passage doesn't say "forever".
    Genesis 15:18-21 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your descendants I have given this land—from the river of Egypt to the great River Euphrates— the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites, and Jebusites.”

    Joshua has this fulfilled:
    Joshua 21:43 Thus the Lord gave to Israel all the land that he swore to give to their fathers. And they took possession of it, and they settled there.

    This was fulfilled in its type (immediate context) through David's son Solomon.
    1.) Solomon was an offspring of David
    2.) Solomon built the first temple
    3.) God punished Solomon for his sin by taking the kingdom away from his son.

    2 Samuel 7:12-17 When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, 1.) I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom.2.) He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. 3.) When he commits iniquity, I will discipline him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men, but my steadfast love will not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you. And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me. Your throne shall be established forever.’” In accordance with all these words, and in accordance with all this vision, Nathan spoke to David.

    The ultimate fulfillment (antitype) is found in Christ
    1.) Jesus was an offspring of david

    Matthew 1:1 This is the record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham
    2.) Jesus built the true temple, for he was the cornerstone, raised from the dead
    John 2:19 Jesus answered, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again.”
    Ephesians 2:20-21 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone. In Him the whole building is fitted together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord
    3.) Jesus, who knew no sin, became sin and suffered by the hands of men for us
    1 Corinthians 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

    Jesus then ascended to heaven, to claim his kingdom, fulfilling David having a descendent on throne and the promise of the everlasting kingdom
    Luke 19:12 He said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return.

    Acts 2:30-31 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ,

    Go back to the beginning of the chapter to see the context: Babylonian Exile.

    Jeremiah 33:4-7For thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, concerning the houses of this city and the houses of the kings of Judah that were torn down to make a defense against the siege mounds and against the sword: They are coming in to fight against the Chaldeans and to fill themb with the dead bodies of men whom I shall strike down in my anger and my wrath, for I have hidden my face from this city because of all their evil. Behold, I will bring to it health and healing, and I will heal them and reveal to them abundance of prosperity and security. I will restore the fortunes of Judah and the fortunes of Israel, and rebuild them as they were at first

    Again, the context is the Babylonian exile.
    Jeremiah 29:10-13 “For thus says the Lord: When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you, and I will fulfill to you my promise and bring you back to this place. For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfareb and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will hear you. You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you, declares the Lord, and I will restore your fortunes and gather you from all the nations and all the places where I have driven you, declares the Lord, and I will bring you back to the place from which I sent you into exile.

    We find the type (immediate context) fulfilled in the return from Babylonian exile. We find the ultimate fulfillment in Christ freeing us from sin.

    ***Do you have any POST EXILE prophecies (Haggai, Malachi, Zechariah) to help your case of a 2nd dispersion followed by another regathering?
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2019
  15. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Romans 11:28-29
    Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

    What part of “they” is the church? And what part of “irrevocable” is revoked?
     
  16. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    And while Hosea was set around the time of the Northern Kingdom, the context of this is yet future. Yeshua is speaking.....

    Hosea 5:14 - 6:2

    For I will be like a lion to Ephraim,
    And like a young lion to the house of Judah.
    I, even I, will tear them and go away;
    I will take them away, and no one shall rescue.
    I will return again to My place
    Till they acknowledge their offense.
    Then they will seek My face;
    In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.”

    Come, and let us return to the Lord; For He has torn, but He will heal us;
    He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
    After two days He will revive us;
    On the third day He will raise us up,
    That we may live in His sight.

    There is no way to confuse that with the Babylonian exile. It obviously regards Yeshua returning to His place because of their rejection of Him and He will not return till they acknowledge their offense. He affirmed that in Matthew 23:37-39

    “In their affliction” would be a reference to....

    Jeremiah 30:7-9

    Alas! For that day is great,
    So that none is like it;
    And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
    But he shall be saved out of it.
    ‘For it shall come to pass in that day,’
    Says the Lord of hosts,
    ‘That I will break his yoke from your neck,
    And will burst your bonds;
    Foreigners shall no more enslave them.
    But they shall serve the Lord their God,
    And David their king,
    Whom I will raise up for them.

    “David their King” was written after David was King and references...

    2 Samuel 7:12-16
    “When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men. But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.”
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2019
  17. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It does just the opposite.

    It affirms the Abrahamic Covenant, and declares that covenant to be based not on race, ethnicity, and DNA; but rather on the faith and obedience which are God's ageless covenant criteria. (Acts 10:34,35)

    It affirms that there are literal Hebrew people ("born in the house") and literal non-Hebrew people ("not of thy seed"), and that God's covenant is equally and fully applicable to both without distinction when they respond in faith and obedience.

    And its ultimate, final, and complete fulfillment is found in Christ, and those who are in Christ, irrespective of DNA, consistent with God's Covenant at the dawn of covenant history in Genesis 17:12. (2 Corinithians 1:20; Galatians 3:16,28,29; Romans 8:16,17).
     
  18. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    And the Lord did bring back a remnant of Jacob from the Babylonian exile, but there will be a second time.....

    Isaiah 11:10-11

    “And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse,
    Who shall stand as a banner to the people;
    For the Gentiles shall seek Him,
    And His resting place shall be glorious.”
    It shall come to pass in that day
    That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time
    To recover the remnant of His people who are left,
    From Assyria and Egypt,
    From Pathros and Cush,
    From Elam and Shinar,
    From Hamath and the islands of the sea.
     
  19. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    There are two groups of Israelites, one faithful and one not, throughout the passage, starting in Romans 11:1-5.

    There are two different groups of "they" in the verse below.


    Rom 11:28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

    Those who reject Christ are the enemies of God, while the "election" accept Christ and are beloved.

    This agrees with Romans 9:6-8.

    .
     
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