Dispensationalism Refuted

[Copperhead]

Even in the sheep and goats’ depiction in Matthew 25, the sheep are rewarded and the goats are banished.

But we know who the sheep and goats are from Joel 3. It is the nations and they are being judged on how they treated the Hebrew people. No ambiguity by Joel.

In bearing the fruit of the vineyard, by taking the gospel to the world, they gain the enmity of the Jews who reject Christ as their Messiah.

But that has nothing to do with the wheat and tares parable. And any group that does not embrace the Messiah now is going to have enmity against those that do. Not really sure what you are getting to with that assertion.

And regarding the issue of what Jews were being addressed, I thought I was being ripped earlier that everything should be based on Sola Scriptura. Now, it seems, we need to bring in Josephus and whomever into this to support a presupposition about some Jews.

Please, please, make up your mind. Are we going on Sola Scriptura or do we get to bring in the whatever we can find that buttresses our case? Last I checked, Josephus writings were not considered canonical scripture.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

But we know who the sheep and goats are from Joel 3. It is the nations and they are being judged on how they treated the Hebrew people. No ambiguity by Joel.

But that has nothing to do with the wheat and tares parable. And any group that does not embrace the Messiah now is going to have enmity against those that do. Not really sure what you are getting to with that assertion.

And regarding the issue of what Jews were being addressed, I thought I was being ripped earlier that everything should be based on Sola Scriptura. Now, it seems, we need to bring in Josephus and whomever into this to support a presupposition about some Jews.

Please, please, make up your mind. Are we going on Sola Scriptura or do we get to bring in the whatever we can find that buttresses our case? Last I checked, Josephus writings were not considered canonical scripture.

Why do you include me in your assertions? We do not do not see the sheep and goats in Joel 3; do not presume I agree with you about Joel. I see the judgment in Joel is against the nations that have scattered Yah’s people throughout the world and have divided up His land (v. 2). The parallel NT text is Revelation 19.

Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war…. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. (Revelation 19:11, 14-15 ESV)​

Joel 3 is easily interpreted as an ephemeral phenomenon in which the nations attempt to resist Yah’s hostile takeover by His Son. It is just as easily perceived that the judgment of the sheep and goats is ephemeral and subsequent to Christ’s hostile takeover of the nations. Your view takes ad hoc explanations to fit the unmentioned sheep and goats into the context of Joel 3. Moreover, it conflicts with the proto-apocalyptic testimony of Isaiah.

It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and shall be lifted up above the hills; and all the nations shall flow to it, and many peoples shall come, and say: "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob, that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths." For out of Zion shall go the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide disputes for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore. (Isaiah 2:2-4)​

Joel 3 persist in the nations beating their “plowshares into swords,” and their “pruning hooks into spears” (v. 10). Again, this fits easily, without ad hoc explanations, with Revelation 19 and an ephemeral phenomenon preceding Isaiah 2:2-3.

Since you did not surmount my post on the parable of the wheat and the tares, Zechariah 10:7-9 has everything to do with the aforesaid parable; Zechariah 10:7-9 fits the parable easily into this age, without ad hoc explanations.

As to your statement on Sola Scriptura, you bought it up, not I. While I preface my work on it, as a historicist, reconciling the prophecies and scriptures to history is the object of my work. You would do well to avoid putting words in my mouth.

 

[BABerean2]

And in Matthew 25, the sheep and goat judgement is an exposition on Joel 3. There will be both Jew and Gentile people that survive the tribulation period and go into the Messianic Kingdom here on earth and repopulate the earth. They will carry their sin nature with them.

And because of that, and the influence of the evil ones who are not locked up like Satan, sin will grow in the kingdom. Tares will be mixed with the wheat. The birds (evil ones in the parable of the sower) will be nesting in the tree of the Kingdom. The woman (what I believe is the spirit of Jezebel) will be introducing leaven (corruption / evil) into the kingdom to where it eventually will permeate the entire kingdom. The Kingdom Parables on full display.

That is why the Messianic Kingdom is finite. It is only 1000 years. If it was perfect, why wouldn't it last longer? It will show that even when living under the most perfect conditions, the sinful heart of man still rejects the Lord. Pretty sad final deal.

Do you think the Son of God, who defeated sin and death at Calvary, is going to rule over a world where sin and death remain for 1,000 years?

.

 

[jgr]

But we know who the sheep and goats are from Joel 3. It is the nations and they are being judged on how they treated the Hebrew people. No ambiguity by Joel.

There is no reference to sheep or goats in Joel 3.

In Matthew 25 Jesus identifies the sheep as His brethren.

Matthew 25
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

He has previously identified His brethren, aracially, without ambiguity, and without reference to the Hebrew people; but rather determined by spiritual DNA:

Matthew 12
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

 

[Copperhead]

Do you think the Son of God, who defeated sin and death at Calvary, is going to rule over a world where sin and death remain for 1,000 years?

.

Yes. It is how Satan, when he is released at the end of those 1000 years is able to foment one final rebellion. That is per Revelation 20. And that is shown in Psalms 2.

There will be mortal humans that survive the tribulation period and go into the Messianic Kingdom. That is shown in Matthew 25 and many locations in the OT. There will be death in the Kingdom. The scripture shows that in places like Isaiah 65. If there is death, it is reasonable to assert that there is sin. The Kingdom Parables bear that out.

If there is no sin in the Kingdom, then why does Yeshua rule with a rod of iron like a despot? It would seem He has to deal with those who get out of line. And that seems to be brought out in Zechariah 14 where those of the nations who refuse to come up to Jerusalem for the Feast of Tabernacles will have rain withheld from their land.

The nations will long to be free of this authoritarian rule and be ripe for insurrection when Satan is released. And Psalms 2 talks about the nations raging, wanting to cast off the bonds of Yeshua.

And if the Messianic Kingdom is perfect, then why is it only 1000 years? It should be forever. But it remains, the Kingdom is only 1000 years then the rebellion, then the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 21. It really is that simple if one takes the word as written without imposing anything on the text.

 

[Copperhead]

There is no reference to sheep or goats in Joel 3.

In Matthew 25 Jesus identifies the sheep as His brethren.

Sure, no mention of sheep in Joel 3, but the nations are most assuredly mentioned in both Joel and Matthew, and it is the nations that are being judged and separated.

No... the sheep are not Yeshua's brethren, but those who treated Yeshua's brethren properly. You might want to go thru the passage again.

But.....

Joel 3:1-2 When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations,
And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
And I will enter into judgment with them there
On account of My people, My heritage Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
They have also divided up My land.

Matthew 25:31-32 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.

Yeshua is glving this discourse from the Mt of Olives that overlooks the Valley of Jehoshaphat mentioned in Joel. Where He is giving the discourse is where He will judge the nations in the future. In both passages, the nations are being judged how they treated Yeshua's brethren, the Hebrew people. The Sheep are not the brethren.

The sheep are the one who treated Yeshua's brethren properly, and they are allowed to enter into the Kingdom...

Matthew 25:34-40 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Sure, no mention of sheep in Joel 3, but the nations are most assuredly mentioned in both Joel and Matthew, and it is the nations that are being judged and separated.

The nations are said to have scattered Yah’s people throughout the nations and have divided up His land. The nations resist Yah's hostile takeover by His Son, just as "nations" attempt in Revelation 19. There is no mention of them helping his elect as the sheep do in Matthew 25. Again, you must rely on ad hoc explanations to explain your rendition.

 

[BABerean2]

That is shown in Matthew 25 and many locations in the OT.

There are no mortals found at the end of Matthew chapter 25.

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[Copperhead]

The nations are said to have scattered Yah’s people among the nations and have divided up His land. There is no mention of them helping his elect as the sheep do in Matthew 25. Again, you must rely on ad hoc explanations to explain your rendition.

Ok. Hold onto that. I will hold onto my position. Then we will both sleep well at night. I am not worried. All will come to light when Yeshua reigns. I am not arrogant enough to assume for a minute I have all this worked out. But I use a proven maxim in hermeneutics that states.... "when the plain sense of the scripture makes sense, then seek no other sense".

But regarding the nations scattering YHWH's people and dividing up His land, seems I am watching the latter happen every time a new "peace plan" for the Middle East is proposed. Every nation cannot seem to show restraint in their desire to divide up YHWH's land. And it seems rather clear in Revelation 12:6 and Matthew 24:15-20 that the people will indeed be scattered from the land.

No ad hoc explanations needed. Just the plain, simple reading of the text.

 

[Copperhead]

There are no mortals found at the end of Matthew chapter 25.

Try to stay focused. No.. the word "humans" or "mortals" is used there, but then who are the nations of Joel 3 and Matthew 25? And those nations are being divided up as a shepherd would divide sheep and goats.

The plain sense of these passages is that the people of the nations are gathered together and are being judged and divided up. The plain sense is that these are mortal humans that have survived the tribulation period. They are not resurrected humans that are now in eternal bodies.

And these being judged and separated, they are judged on how they treated Yeshua's brethren. Now I assert that those brethren are Yeshua's physical brethren, the Hebrew people. But even if it were to mean the brethren as the redeemed that make up the church, then it still remains, those of the nations are being judged on how they treated the brethren.

Therefore, the sheep are not the brethren. I know it can be tough sometimes, but using simple, basic grammatical principles when reading a text usually offers the most effective analysis. It is the scriptural equivalent of Occam's Razor.

 

[jgr]

Sure, no mention of sheep in Joel 3, but the nations are most assuredly mentioned in both Joel and Matthew, and it is the nations that are being judged and separated.

No... the sheep are not Yeshua's brethren, but those who treated Yeshua's brethren properly. You might want to go thru the passage again.

But.....

Joel 3:1-2 When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations,
And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
And I will enter into judgment with them there
On account of My people, My heritage Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
They have also divided up My land.

Matthew 25:31-32 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.

Yeshua is glving this discourse from the Mt of Olives that overlooks the Valley of Jehoshaphat mentioned in Joel. Where He is giving the discourse is where He will judge the nations in the future. In both passages, the nations are being judged how they treated Yeshua's brethren, the Hebrew people. The Sheep are not the brethren.

The sheep are the one who treated Yeshua's brethren properly, and they are allowed to enter into the Kingdom...

Matthew 25:34-40 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

So, at the final judgment, the deciding factor of whether I will be a sheep going to heaven, or a goat going to hell; will not be whether or not I have put my faith in Christ and followed Him; but will be whether or not I have treated the Hebrew people properly.

Can you confirm?

 

[Copperhead]

So, at the final judgment, the deciding factor of whether I will be a sheep going to heaven, or a goat going to hell; will not be whether or not I have put my faith in Christ and followed Him; but will be whether or not I have treated the Hebrew people properly.

Can you confirm?

I can confirm you err in your analysis. This judgment of the nations is not the final judgement. That final judgement is at the final resurrection of all the dead when the Great White Throne prosecutorial judgment occurs in Revelation 20.... AFTER the rebellion fomented by Satan when he is released at the end of the 1000 years of the kingdom. This judgement of the nations is at the beginning of Messianic Kingdom.

If you are part of the redeemed, you are not part of the nations being judged. Is it really that difficult to comprehend? If you are redeemed by Yeshua already, you have already passed from death to life according to Yeshua's closest disciple and friend, John. The only judgement the redeemed have to deal with is the Bema Seat judgement of Yeshua (2 Corinthians 5:10), which is one of rewards, not eternal life.

So, it really is a simple question... are you part of the redeemed or not? That is between you and the Lord. It is outside my pay grade to make that conclusion about anyone. If you are not part of the redeemed, then that puts you as part of the nations being judged, that is, if you survive the tribulation period. If you are part of the redeemed, at this judgment, you will be an observer watching the judgement preceding.

Now would be a good time for anyone who reading this and is sitting on the fence to decide if they want to be part of the redeemed. It is the only sure move one can make in this life.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Ok. Hold onto that. I will hold onto my position. Then we will both sleep well at night. I am not worried. All will come to light when Yeshua reigns. I am not arrogant enough to assume for a minute I have all this worked out. But I use a proven maxim in hermeneutics that states.... "when the plain sense of the scripture makes sense, then seek no other sense".

Agreed. And I'm a great believer in the plain sense of the scripture, the grammatical-historical hermeneutic transcending, with progressive revelation in support.

But regarding the nations scattering YHWH's people and dividing up His land, seems I am watching the latter happen every time a new "peace plan" for the Middle East is proposed. Every nation cannot seem to show restraint in their desire to divide up YHWH's land. And it seems rather clear in Revelation 12:6 and Matthew 24:15-20 that the people will indeed be scattered from the land.

No ad hoc explanations needed. Just the plain, simple reading of the text.

Yes, and that is why I see the grammatical-historical intent of the parables in the past and present age, but they cannot depict the age to come when Israel will dwell safely in the antitypical Sukkot, according to the number of Old and New Testament texts I based my understanding on and shared with you.

 

[jgr]

I can confirm you err in your analysis. This judgment of the nations is not the final judgement. That final judgement is at the final resurrection of all the dead when the Great White Throne prosecutorial judgment occurs in Revelation 20.... AFTER the rebellion fomented by Satan when he is released at the end of the 1000 years of the kingdom.

If you are part of the redeemed, you are not part of the nations being judged. Is it really that difficult to comprehend? If you are redeemed by Yeshua already, you have already passed from death to life according to Yeshua's closest disciple and friend, John. The only judgement the redeemed have to deal with is the Bema Seat judgement of Yeshua (2 Corinthians 5:10), which is one of rewards, not eternal life.

So, it really is a simple question... are you part of the redeemed or not? That is between you and the Lord. It is outside my pay grade to make that conclusion about anyone. If you are not part of the redeemed, then that puts you as part of the nations being judged, that is, if you survive the tribulation period. If you are part of the redeemed, at this judgment, you will be an observer watching the judgement preceding.

Now would be a good time for anyone who is sitting on the fence to decide if they want to be part of the redeemed.

If I am part of the redeemed, but have not treated the Hebrew people properly, will I be a sheep, or will I be a goat?

If I am not part of the redeemed, but have treated the Hebrew people properly, will I be a sheep, or will I be a goat?

 

[Copperhead]

If I am part of the redeemed, but have not treated the Hebrew people properly, will I be a sheep, or will I be a goat?

If I am not part of the redeemed, but have treated the Hebrew people properly, will I be a sheep, or will I be a goat?

Did you not read what I wrote? I stated that if one is part of the redeemed, they are not part of the nations being judged, so they are neither a sheep or a goat! They are an observer watching Yeshua officiate this judgement of the nations that went thru the tribulation period. The redeemed rule with a rod of iron along with Yeshua as clearly stated in Revelation 2:26-27. So there is no judgement of the redeemed as to whether they are a sheep or a goat.

Now, if one is not part of the redeemed, then they are indeed part of the nations that will be judged. And they will be judged as a sheep (allowed to physically go into the Messianic Kingdom here on earth) based on good treatment of the brethren of Yeshua. If they do not treat the brethren of Yeshua properly as He laid out in Matthew 25, then they will be one of the goats and they will not physically go into the Messianic Kingdom on earth but instead be cast away to eternal punishment.

But anyone reading this can settle the issue right now! Become part of the Redeemed by turning from rejecting Yeshua to accepting Him and placing their trust in Him!!! Then they pass from death to life and no longer come under judgement. The plain and simple Gospel of Yeshua the Messiah! Hallelujah!

 

[jgr]

Did you not read what I wrote? I stated that if one is part of the redeemed, they are not part of the nations being judged, so they are neither a sheep or a goat! They are an observer watching Yeshua officiate this judgement of the nations that went thru the tribulation period. The redeemed rule with a rod of iron along with Yeshua as clearly stated in Revelation 2:26-27. So there is no judgement of the redeemed as to whether they are a sheep or a goat.

Now, if one is not part of the redeemed, then they are indeed part of the nations that will be judged. And they will be judged as a sheep (allowed to physically go into the Messianic Kingdom here on earth) based on good treatment of the brethren of Yeshua. If they do not treat the brethren of Yeshua properly as He laid out in Matthew 25, then they will be one of the goats and they will not physically go into the Messianic Kingdom on earth but instead be cast away to eternal punishment.

But anyone reading this can settle the issue right now! Become part of the Redeemed by turning from rejecting Yeshua to accepting Him and placing their trust in Him!!! Then they pass from death to life and no longer come under judgement. The plain and simple Gospel of Yeshua the Messiah! Hallelujah!

Matthew 25
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Dispensationally, the righteous in Matthew 25:46 are the sheep on Christ's right hand (Matthew 25:33,34,37) who "treated the Hebrew people properly".

Dispensationally, they are not part of the redeemed, but dispensationally, they still go into life eternal.

Where else in Scripture are any who are not part of the redeemed, still classified as righteous, and where else in Scripture do they still go into life eternal?

 

[BABerean2]

Try to stay focused. No.. the word "humans" or "mortals" is used there, but then who are the nations of Joel 3 and Matthew 25? And those nations are being divided up as a shepherd would divide sheep and goats.

The plain sense of these passages is that the people of the nations are gathered together and are being judged and divided up. The plain sense is that these are mortal humans that have survived the tribulation period. They are not resurrected humans that are now in eternal bodies.

I am focused on what the text says, instead of trying to make a man-made doctrine work.


Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

How many mortals are found in the last verse above?

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[BABerean2]

If there is no sin in the Kingdom, then why does Yeshua rule with a rod of iron like a despot?

The Son does not correct the flawed pottery with the rod of iron.
He destroys it.

Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

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[Copperhead]

The Son does not correct the flawed pottery with the rod of iron.
He destroys it.

Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

.

And compare that to.......

Zechariah 14:16-19 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Sounds like continual problem that Yeshua will have to deal with... from year to year. Doesn't sound like He is getting rid of evil in one swoop at the beginning of the Messianic Kingdom.

And this sure sounds like a revolt of the nations when Yeshua is ruling. You referred to Psalms 2 in your post, but forgot some of it....

Psalms 2:1-6 Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us.”
4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The Lord shall hold them in derision.
5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath,
And distress them in His deep displeasure:
6 “Yet I have set My King
On My holy hill of Zion.”

And it seems to tie in to this....

Revelation 20:7-10 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. (see Psalms 2:6 above) And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

It is quite clear that the rebellion of Satan and his using the nations to come against the Lord occurs during the Messianic Kingdom, since the beast and false prophet are already in the lake of fire when this happens. So it is after the tribulation period.

So, my assertion still stands. According to the passages above and many others, and the kingdom parable descriptions, the Kingdom will still have evil in it and the Lord will have to continually deal with it like a despot and rule with a rod of iron. He will smash insurrection and lawlessness when it crops up, but eventually, as the leaven permeates the 3 measures of meal in the parable, sin and insurrection will permeate the entire kingdom on earth, leading to one final revolt.

And since the kingdom will still have evil in it, then how is it that none who go into it are human? Does that mean that even in the eternal state, we still can rebel against Yeshua? Do we carry our sin nature with us? How then, is it eternal life?. Lots of pretty heavy theological issues crop up if all who go into the kingdom have been given eternal life yet can still rebel against the Lord.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

And compare that to.......

Zechariah 14:16-19 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Sounds like continual problem that Yeshua will have to deal with... from year to year. Doesn't sound like He is getting rid of evil in one swoop at the beginning of the Messianic Kingdom.

And this sure sounds like a revolt of the nations when Yeshua is ruling. You referred to Psalms 2 in your post, but forgot some of it....

Psalms 2:1-6 Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us.”
4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The Lord shall hold them in derision.
5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath,
And distress them in His deep displeasure:
6 “Yet I have set My King
On My holy hill of Zion.”

And it seems to tie in to this....

Revelation 20:7-10 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. (see Psalms 2:6 above) And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

It is quite clear that the rebellion of Satan and his using the nations to come against the Lord occurs during the Messianic Kingdom, since the beast and false prophet are already in the lake of fire when this happens. So it is after the tribulation period.

So, my assertion still stands. According to the passages above and many others, and the kingdom parable descriptions, the Kingdom will still have evil in it and the Lord will have to continually deal with it like a despot and rule with a rod of iron. He will smash insurrection and lawlessness when it crops up, but eventually, as the leaven permeates the 3 measures of meal in the parable, sin and insurrection will permeate the entire kingdom on earth, leading to one final revolt.

And since the kingdom will still have evil in it, then how is it that none who go into it are human? Does that mean that even in the eternal state, we still can rebel against Yeshua? Do we carry our sin nature with us? How then, is it eternal life?. Lots of pretty heavy theological issues crop up if all who go into the kingdom have been given eternal life yet can still rebel against the Lord.

Let us not neglect the proto-apocalyptic prophecy of Isaiah.

Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof. And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him. land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word. The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left…. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. (Isaiah 24:1-6, 21-22)​

Clearly, Isaiah 24 corresponds to Revelation 19-20.