Dispensationalism Refuted

[Copperhead]

Let us not neglect the proto-apocalyptic prophecy of Isaiah.

Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof. And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him. land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word. The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left…. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. (Isaiah 24:1-6, 21-22)​

Clearly, Isaiah 24 corresponds to Revelation 19-20.

Sure has that familiar ring to it.

 

[BABerean2]

And compare that to.......

Zechariah 14:16-19 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Sounds like continual problem that Yeshua will have to deal with... from year to year. Doesn't sound like He is getting rid of evil in one swoop at the beginning of the Messianic Kingdom.

And this sure sounds like a revolt of the nations when Yeshua is ruling. You referred to Psalms 2 in your post, but forgot some of it....

Psalms 2:1-6 Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us.”
4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The Lord shall hold them in derision.
5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath,
And distress them in His deep displeasure:
6 “Yet I have set My King
On My holy hill of Zion.”

And it seems to tie in to this....

Revelation 20:7-10 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. (see Psalms 2:6 above) And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

It is quite clear that the rebellion of Satan and his using the nations to come against the Lord occurs during the Messianic Kingdom, since the beast and false prophet are already in the lake of fire when this happens. So it is after the tribulation period.

So, my assertion still stands. According to the passages above and many others, and the kingdom parable descriptions, the Kingdom will still have evil in it and the Lord will have to continually deal with it like a despot and rule with a rod of iron. He will smash insurrection and lawlessness when it crops up, but eventually, as the leaven permeates the 3 measures of meal in the parable, sin and insurrection will permeate the entire kingdom on earth, leading to one final revolt.

And since the kingdom will still have evil in it, then how is it that none who go into it are human? Does that mean that even in the eternal state, we still can rebel against Yeshua? Do we carry our sin nature with us? How then, is it eternal life?. Lots of pretty heavy theological issues crop up if all who go into the kingdom have been given eternal life yet can still rebel against the Lord.

Your whole viewpoint of Revelation 20 is built on the idea that the Book of Revelation is in chronological order, which it clearly is not.

The "time of the judgment of the dead" is found in Revelation 11:18, and also at the of chapter 20.

In 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 Christ returns "in flaming fire". The fire comes at the end of Revelation 20.

You claim there are mortals at the end of Matthew 25, but there are none in the text.

.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Your whole viewpoint of Revelation 20 is built on the idea that the Book of Revelation is in chronological order, which it clearly is not.

The "time of the judgment of the dead" is found in Revelation 11:18, and also at the of chapter 20.

In 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 Christ returns "in flaming fire". The fire comes at the end of Revelation 20.

You claim there are mortals at the end of Matthew 25, but there are none in the text.

.

The interruption of a linear narration in the Revelation does not preclude that the millennium in Revelation 20 follows the return of Christ in 19. There is evidence that establishes one cannot chop up the Revelation over and over again as post and Amillennialist do. There is recapitulation but not as you guys have it.

Actually, Revelation 19 is Christ’s return; his eyes are a burning fire and cast the beast and false prophet into the lake of fire.

As for Matthew 25, Isaiah’s chapter 24 is a parallel text that substantiates there are a few men left after the fire that can be reconciled with those who are left of the nations in Zechariah 14; there are your mortals. Line upon line, here a little and there a little.

 

[BABerean2]

As for Matthew 25, Isaiah’s chapter 24 is a parallel text that substantiates there are a few men left after the fire that can be reconciled with those who are left of the nations in Zechariah 14; there are your mortals. Line upon line, here a little and there a little.

If you can show mortals at the end of Matthew chapter 25, please post the text.

.

 

[Copperhead]

If you can show mortals at the end of Matthew chapter 25, please post the text.

.

If you can show the name of God in the Book of Esther, please post it. You can’t. But YHVH is all throughout the book via equidistant letter sequences and various acrostics. YHVH is hidden but always there.

Just because something is not literally named does not mean the concept is not valid.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

If you can show mortals at the end of Matthew chapter 25, please post the text.

.

I can show them the same way you attempt to show the second advent is at the end of Revelation 20: theologically. Albeit, my theology would have greater literal scriptural support, without all the allegorizing.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Now again, as I affirmed in my prior post, Ephraim is the nation that bears the fruit of the vineyard (Matthew 21:43), which include the gentiles-as they assimilate them!

Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD. Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes; For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. (Isaiah 54:1-3)​

Zechariah 11 prophesies that Judah would be cast off at Christ’s first advent.

And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people. (Zechariah 11:10)​

Furthermore, Zechariah prophecies that God would “break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel” (Verse 14). The enmity between Judah and Israel can only be coherently explained in the NT evidence that Ephraim is the nation that bears the fruit of the vineyard. This commences with the foundation that the descendants of the ten tribes fulfill the prophecy in Zechariah.

And they of Ephraim shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as through wine: yea, their children shall see it, and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in the LORD. I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased. And I will sow them among the people: and they shall remember me in far countries; and they shall live with their children, and turn again. (Zechariah 10:7-9)​

This was written after the return from the Babylonian captivity and prophecy of another diaspora, specifically for Ephraim, which is also the name in the OT for the ten northern tribes, as is Joseph, in contrast to Judah. In essence, God would hiss, or call Ephraim and gather them in Christ and then scatter them in the world to bring in the gentiles, which was not the plan for Judah. Judah was to be hardened in the age (Romans 11). The kingdom was taken from the Jews and given to the nation of Ephraim/Joseph (Matthew 21:43), which is what Peter confirms in his epistle.

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. (1 Peter 2:9-10)​

Both Peter, and Hosea, from whence Peter quotes, are referring to the descendants of the ten northern tribes that were dwelling in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia at that time, which was affirmed by the Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus, who wrote, “the ten tribes are beyond the Euphrates till now, and are an immense multitude, and not to be estimated by numbers" (Antiquities of the Jews, 11.133). Zechariah 10:7-9 is the source for the parable of the wheat and the tares in Matthew 13. In bearing the fruit of the vineyard, by taking the gospel to the world, they gain the enmity of the Jews who reject Christ as their Messiah.

 

[BABerean2]

I can show them the same way you attempt to show the second advent is at the end of Revelation 20: theologically. Albeit, my theology would have greater literal scriptural support, without all the allegorizing.

Why are people hiding from the wrath of the Lamb at the end of Revelation chapter 6, if the Lamb is not present?

What do you do with "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18?

Does Christ return at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19?

Do you deny that Christ returns "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God, in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10?

.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Why are people hiding from the wrath of the Lamb at the end of Revelation chapter 6, if the Lamb is not present?

What do you do with "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18?

Does Christ return at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19?

Do you deny that Christ returns "in flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not know God, in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10?

.

The answers to your queries requires theological explanations, as does your interpretation of them. Albeit, my theology would have greater literal scriptural support, without all the allegorizing and less breaking of the linear narration, which was John's intent.

 

[BABerean2]

The answers to your queries requires theological explanations, as does your interpretation of them. Albeit, my theology would have greater literal scriptural support, without all the allegorizing and less breaking of the linear narration, which was John's intent.

If you cannot answer the questions, just admit that fact.

.

 

[jgr]

If you can show the name of God in the Book of Esther, please post it. You can’t. But YHVH is all throughout the book via equidistant letter sequences and various acrostics. YHVH is hidden but always there.

Just because something is not literally named does not mean the concept is not valid.

That would then also be true of the following:

2 Peter 1
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

The verse does not list "dispensational" as an example or instead of "private".

But,

"Just because something is not literally named does not mean the concept is not valid."

 

[Jerryhuerta]

If you cannot answer the questions, just admit that fact.

.

I'd rather you start answering the challenges to you. Give us your theological argument for interpreting the end of Revelation 20 as the second advent, which I've heard numerous times before and have shown to be unfounded allegorizing and the unwarranted interruption of the linear narration that was John's intent.

 

[BABerean2]

I'd rather you start answering the challenges to you. Give us your theological argument for interpreting the end of Revelation 20 as the second advent, which I've heard numerous times before and have shown to be unfounded allegorizing and the unwarranted interruption of the linear narration that was John's intent.

First of all "the time of the judgment of the dead" is found in Revelation 11:15-18, at the time of the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and is the time when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ "forever", instead of 1,000 years.

Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"
Rev 11:16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God,
Rev 11:17 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

The judgment of the dead is described by Christ in John 5:27-30.


Paul said below that Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing.

2Ti 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:


Christ returns "in flaming fire" in the passage below.
How are your mortals going to survive the fire?

2Th 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th 1:9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2Th 1:10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.


There are no mortals left at the end of Matthew chapter 25.

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


Peter said the earth, and ungodly men, will be judged by fire on "the day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief", which connects the timing to 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5, and Revelation 16:15-16, and John 5:27-30.

2Pe 3:6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Peter was looking for the New Heavens and the New Earth in the passage above, and I am looking for the same thing.


The judgment of the dead is found at the end of Revelation 20, and the fire comes at the end of Revelation 20.
This provides the timing of the chapter.

.

 

[Copperhead]

Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

Try reading that just a little bit slower.

The wrath toward the nations is not the judgement. It is anger.

"and that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints" delineates the judgment from the wrath onto the nations.

That is not the same Great White Throne Judgement of Revelation 20. Nor is it the judgement of the other passages you posted. It could be the judgement of 2 Corinthians 5 which is one of rewards for the redeemed.

And there is a delineation there.... "Your servants the prophets and the saints". That is likely the OT saints and prophets, which might not have the redeemed of the ekklessia in mind.

Try to keep in mind, it is the blood of Yeshua that redeems unto salvation. Not the works of the redeemed. So the redeemed never experience the prosecutorial judgement regarding eternal life. The redeemed have already passed from death to life.

You really need to learn to separate your judgements into the categories they are intended. The redeemed and the unrighteous experience different judgements. The redeemed a judgment of rewards and the unrighteous a prosecutorial judgement unto punishment. They do not happen at the same time nor are they similar in nature. The redeemed are no longer under a prosecutorial judgement. Paul makes that exceedingly clear in his letters.

It is this judgement confusion that skews reasoned eschatology and risks watering down the Gospel of Yeshua into a works righteousness game. I am convinced that folks who try to lump all the judgements into one really do not understand the Gospel or "Good News" of reconciliation unto YHVH thru the death, burial, and resurrection of Yeshua to all those who place their trust in Him.

It also leads to confusion on other issues like the meaning of the Parable of the Virgins and other stuff that tries to lay a guilt trip on the brethren, fears them into some sort of manmade adherence to some standard, and shipwrecks their faith. It borders on a "hath God really said?" regarding the simple, pure Gospel of Yeshua.

 

[BABerean2]

I am convinced that folks who try to lump all the judgements into one really do not understand the Gospel or "Good News" of reconciliation unto YHVH thru the death, burial, and resurrection of Yeshua to all those who place their trust in Him.

Do you think Jesus was confused in the passage below?

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Do you think Paul was confused in the verse below?

2Ti 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:


Do you think Peter was confused in the passage below?

2Pe 3:6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

.

 

[Copperhead]

Do you think Jesus was confused in the passage below?

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Do you think Paul was confused in the verse below?

2Ti 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:


Do you think Peter was confused in the passage below?

2Pe 3:6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

.

Yom - Day does not always mean a 24 hr period. Most folks would agree that the “Day of the Lord” encompasses more than one literal day. It is not unreasonable to lay the same reasoning regarding hour. Even when Yeshua stated “My hour has not yet come”, it is unreasonable to assume He meant a literal 60 minutes.

But always remember the scripture.... precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little there a little. And per the Torah, a matter cannot be established on less than two witnesses.

Paul only delineates living and dead. Not righteous or unrighteous. He is referring to the GWT judgement of Revelation 20. Or the rewards judgement of 2 Cor 5. Neither is associated with the other.

And Peter is talking about the same thing... the prosecutorial judgement at the GWT of Revelation 20. Peter says it is a judgement of ungodly men.

Your assertion is yet unsupported.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

First of all "the time of the judgment of the dead" is found in Revelation 11:15-18, at the time of the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and is the time when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ "forever", instead of 1,000 years.

Last time I checked, forever includes 1000 years—many of them. Premillennialism only need to borrow one!

The judgment of the dead is described by Christ in John 5:27-30.
Paul said below that Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing.
2Ti 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:

And what is your point concerning 2 Timothy 4:1? There is no mention Christ judges the dead who have done evil in the context. The context is for the benefit of those who will hear Christ’s voice “in the grave” and come forth unto the resurrection of life (John 5:28-29). Premillennialism perceives “two separate resurrections” in John 5:29. If it were but one, Christ would have merely stated “the resurrection of they who have done good and they that have done evil,” period.

By the way, John 5:27-29 presents a problem for you, insofar as these verses also substantiate the dead in Christ come to life, only after the resurrection of life. This is precisely what is indicated in Revelation 20. John perceives “the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus” and that “they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years” that is coined “the first resurrection,” which substantiates what John 5:27-29 recounts: “two separate resurrections” separated by 1000 years, hence, the second resurrection. You guys try to allegorize the “first resurrection” as the spiritual rebirth, but as I stated previously, the premillennial theology has a greater literal scriptural support, without all the allegorizing; I chose the former.

Christ returns "in flaming fire" in the passage below.
How are your mortals going to survive the fire?

This is an easy one. Judgment begins by answering the prayers of the martyrs of the sixth seal in Revelation 8, which commences with fire being cast to the earth and the judgments of the trumpets by fire, the seventh trump being the seven last plagues, one of which scorches men with fire (Revelation 16:8). And the plagues commence upon the last trumpet: “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come” (Revelation 11:18).

And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. (Revelation 16:1)​

The nations become the kingdoms of God and Christ at the last trumpet, Christ’s return, which is reiterated in Revelation 19, where Christ smites the nations and rules them with the rod of iron and “treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.” The element of the wrath precludes any attempt to make Christ’s proceeding from the clouds in chapter 19 anything other than the second advent. Fire is present in judgment of the trumpets and vials, thwarting your attempt to make Revelation 20:9 Christ’s second advent.

Peter said the earth, and ungodly men, will be judged by fire on "the day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief", which connects the timing to 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5, and Revelation 16:15-16, and John 5:27-30.

Peter was looking for the New Heavens and the New Earth in the passage above, and I am looking for the same thing.

The destruction and fire that Peter portrayed were taken from texts such as Isaiah 24:6, which substantiates there are few men that live. And Zechariah 14 also support the premillennialist doctrine also. As to the new heavens and new earth, premillennialist look forward to them also but can substantiate they do not occur until the end of the age to come.

Furthermore, Matthew 25 does not consign the goats to the lake of fire. It only banishes them to everlasting punishment (v. 46). Now show us where the goats are burned with fire!

Moreover, your doctrine fails to account for the significance that the saints are caught up with Christ in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and return with him, upheld by two or more witnesses.

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory. (Matthew 25:31)

For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. (Mark 12:25)

Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee… For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle… Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations… And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east… and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. (Zechariah 14:1-5)

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints…. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (Revelation 19:7-8, 14-15)​

The angels in Matthew 25:31 account for those who are caught up with Christ in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and accompany him at his return. Their judgment is complete, otherwise they would not be worthy to do so. This indicates the nations in Matthew 25 represent something other than the saints: they are mortal and must await the second resurrection to put on immortality.

 

[BABerean2]

Furthermore, Matthew 25 does not consign the goats to the lake of fire.

Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

.

 

[Copperhead]

Still, though, Matthew 24 - 25, the church is not part of any of that.

I was going over Matthew 24 a little yesterday and one salient thing stood out. Those that are "took" in...

Matthew 24:37-39 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Now, it seems pretty clear that Yeshua is telling us that those who were to be destroyed were taken away. He sets the typology for the next part of His discourse. Now let's look and the verses following that one......

Matthew 24:40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.

Matthew 24:41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.

And many seem to think this ties into the removal of the righteous or "rapture", so it has to do with the church. but the typology does not support that. Even with this next verse...

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.

Those that are on the earth during this tumultuous time will be the Hebrews and the Gentiles who were not part of the redeemed who were removed at the start. They would not be aware of the coming of the Lord. Not like, at the start of the tribulation period, they would be breaking out their tribulation timeline charts that they downloaded from a pre-trib website just in case. No, all of this will take them unaware.

Some will turn to Yeshua during that time. It is incumbent on many of the Hebrew people to do so in order that Yeshua will return per Hosea 5:15, Matthew 23:39, Psalms 118. And many gentiles will turn to the Lord during that time, but most will become martyrs for making that choice. But all of them went into the tribulation period as unbelievers... not part of the redeemed ekkleseia or "church".

And that is what the Virgins parable and the Sheep and Goat judgements are all about.

First the Virgins, if it is those of the church, then we have all gotten a down grade. The church is the bride of Messiah. These are the bridesmaids. It is also a commentary on....

Ezekiel 20:35-38 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face. 36 Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you,” says the Lord God.
37 “I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; 38 I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord.

And the sheep / goat judgement is similar, but is an exposition on Joel 3.....

Joel 3:1-2 “For behold, in those days and at that time, When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations,
And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
And I will enter into judgment with them there
On account of My people, My heritage Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
They have also divided up My land.

Yeshua will judge the nations as sheep or goats based on how they treated His brethren, the Hebrew people. Plain, simple, direct, devoid of any allegorical interpretation or slight of hand tricks.

And the church is not part of any of that because, as John clearly stated, we have passed from death to life. And Paul stated that there is no condemnation for those in Yeshua. We are observers of these events, not subject to them.

Now to BAB's point, it might just indeed be that the sheep are then considered the redeemed and are then granted eternal life and go into the kingdom just like those of the church. But the virgins, they are not so told to go into eternal life.

So, it could be the physical people that are to repopulate the earth may be Hebrews only. I think that is not realistic since Yeshua is going to have to deal with people of the nations getting out of line during that period of His rule.....

Zechariah 14:16-17 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain.

And there is a growing discontent and evil in the kingdom over Yeshua's ruling over them as per the kingdom parables of Matthew 13, the rebellion of Revelation 20 and Psalms 2. So there are going to be mortals that enter the kingdom. Else, the only alternative is that we, in our redeemed eternal state, still have our sin nature baggage and many of us rebel against Yeshua during His reign. That is really a thin idea.

Thanks, guys, for the discussion and debate! I am more solidly pre-trib than ever.

 

[BABerean2]

And many seem to think this ties into the removal of the righteous or "rapture", so it has to do with the church. but the typology does not support that.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:18-24, the Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

.