Dispensationalism in Ancient Christian Writings

[sovereigngrace]

Let us first consider whether or not these documents can be assigned to any modern system of doctrine. We have already noticed that in his fourth chapter, Barnabas called it sin to say that “The covenant is both theirs and ours.” In his thirteenth chapter he argued at length that the covenant belongs only to us (the Christians) and not to them (the Jews.) This is a concept of Covenant Theology, and is wholly incompatible with Dispensationalism.

In a similar vein, Irenaeus said,

“Then, too, Isaiah himself has plainly declared that there shall be joy of this nature at the resurrection of the just, when he says: ‘The dead shall rise again; those, too, who are in the tombs shall arise, and those who are in the earth shall rejoice. For the dew from Thee is health to them.’ And this again Ezekiel also says: ‘Behold, I will open your tombs, and will bring you forth out of your graves; when I will draw my people from the sepulchres, and I will put breath in you, and ye shall live; and I will place you on your own land, and ye shall know that I am the Lord.’ And again the same speaks thus: ‘These things saith the Lord, I will gather Israel from all nations whither they have been driven, and I shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the sons of the nations: and they shall dwell in their own land, which I gave to my servant Jacob. And they shall dwell in it in peace; and they shall build houses, and plant vineyards, and dwell in hope, when I shall cause judgment to fall among all who have dishonoured them, among those who encircle them round about; and they shall know that I am the Lord their God, and the God of their fathers.’ Now I have shown a short time ago that the church is the seed of Abraham; and for this reason, that we may know that He who in the New Testament ‘raises up from the stones children unto Abraham,’ is He who will gather, according to the Old Testament, those that shall be saved from all the nations, Jeremiah says: ‘Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that they shall no more say, The Lord liveth, who led the children of Israel from the north, and from every region whither they had been driven; He will restore them to their own land which He gave to their fathers.’”(Against Heresies, book V, chapter XXXIV, section 1.)

Thus we see that Irenaeus said that the seed of Abraham is the Church, and through that concept he applied the Old Testament prophecies about the return of Israel to the church. This, again, is an element of Covenant Theology and is wholly incompatible with Dispensationalism.

Justin Martyr, on the other hand, taught somewhat differently, saying,

“And by Isaiah He speaks thus concerning another Israel: ‘In that day shall there be a third Israel among the Assyrians and the Egyptians, blessed in the land which the Lord of Sabaoth hath blessed, saying, blessed shall my people in Egypt and in Assyria be, and Israel mine inheritance. Since then God blesses this people, and calls them Israel, and declares them to be His inheritance, how is it that you repent not of the deception you practise on yourselves, as if you alone were the Israel, and of execrating the people whom God has blessed? For when He speaks to Jerusalem and its environs, He thus added: ‘And I will beget men upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall inherit you, and you shall be a possession for them; and you shall be no longer bereaved of them.’ ” (Dialogue withTrypho, chapter CXXIII)

In this statement Justin Martyr seems to be saying that the scriptural term Israel includes the church. This is also a concept of Covenant Theology and is incompatible with Dispensationalism. But he also clearly says that in that future day Jerusalem was to be rebuilt. This is an element of Dispensationalism, and is incompatible with Covenant Theology.

But a different statement by Justyn Martyr was clearly an element of Dispensationalism. examples of prophecies at the end of a chapter titled “Certain fulfilment of prophecy,” he concluded with the words:

“And what the people of the Jews shall say and do, when they see Him coming in glory, has been thus predicted by Zechariah the prophet: “I will command the four winds to gather the scattered children; I will command the north wind to bring them, and the south wind, that it keep not back. And then in Jerusalem there shall be great lamentation, not the lamentation of mouths or of lips, but the lamentation of the heart; and they shall rend not their garments, but their hearts. Tribe by tribe they shall mourn, and then they shall look on Him whom they have pierced; and they shall say, Why, O Lord, hast Thou made us to err from Thy way? The glory which our fathers blessed, has for us been turned into shame.” (“The First Apology of Justyn”, by Justyn Martyr, chapter 52, “Certain fulfilment of prophecy.&#8221

So we see that Justyn Martyr said, not only that “the people of the Jews” would again be brought back to their land, but would at that time repent. This is not only an element of Dispensationalism. It is, in actual fact, what many consider the central element of Dispensationalism.

In these same ancient documents we also find other teaching that agrees with Dispensational doctrine. Let us look, for instance, at the sequence of coming events that Irenaeus saw in the scriptures.

“In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord’s disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, telling us that thus it had been said to him: ‘And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and the King of kings.’ It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXVI, section 1)

“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons ‘as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance—in fact, as nothing;’ so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’ For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXIX, section 1)

“But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that ‘many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.’” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXX, section 3)

“For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign in the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one. For it is in reference to them that the prophet says: ‘And those that are left shall multiply upon the earth,’ And Jeremiah the prophet has pointed out, that as many believers as God has prepared for this purpose, to multiply those left upon earth, should both be under the rule of the saints to minister to this Jerusalem, and that [His] kingdom shall be in it, saying, ‘Look around Jerusalem towards the east, and behold the joy which comes to thee from God Himself. Behold, thy sons shall come whom thou hast sent forth: they shall come in a band from the east even unto the west, by the word of that Holy One, rejoicing in that splendour which is from thy God.’” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXXV, section 1)

“And in the Apocalypse John saw this new [Jerusalem] descending upon the new earth. For after the times of the kingdom, he says, ‘I saw a great white throne, and Him who sat upon it, from whose face the earth fled away, and the heavens; and there was no more place for them.’ And he sets forth, too, the things connected with the general resurrection and the judgment, mentioning ‘the dead, great and small.’ ‘The sea,’ he says, ‘gave up the dead which it had in it, and death and hell delivered up the dead that they contained; and the books were opened. Moreover,’ he says, ‘the book of life was opened, and the dead were judged out of those things that were written in the books, according to their works; and death and hell were sent into the lake of fire, the second death.’ Now this is what is called Gehenna, which the Lord styled eternal fire. ‘And if any one,’ it is said, ‘was not found written in the book of life, he was sent into the lake of fire.’ And after this, he says, ‘I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth have passed away; also there was no more sea. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from heaven, as a bride adorned for her husband.’ ‘And I heard,’ it is said, ‘a great voice from the throne, saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them; and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them as their God. And He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain, because the former things have passed away.’ Isaiah also declares the very same: ‘For there shall be a new heaven and a new earth; and there shall be no remembrance of the former, neither shall the heart think about them, but they shall find in it joy and exultation.’ Now this is what has been said by the apostle: ‘For the fashion of this world passeth away.’ To the same purpose did the Lord also declare, ‘Heaven and earth shall pass away.’ When these things, therefore, pass away above the earth, John, the Lord’s disciple, says that the new Jerusalem above shall [then] descend, as a bride adorned for her husband; and that this is the tabernacle of God, in which God will dwell with men. Of this Jerusalem the former one is an image—that Jerusalem of the former earth in which the righteous are disciplined beforehand for incorruption and prepared for salvation.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXXV, section 2)

In this sequence of quotations, we see the following sequence clearly spelled out:

1. In the last times the Roman Empire shall be partitioned among ten kings.

2. One of these ten kings will slay three of the others, subject the rest to his power, and put the Church to flight.

3. When the church is “suddenly caught up from” the nations there will be great tribulation which will be “the last contest of the righteous.”

4. The Antichrist will reign for three years and six months.

5. The Antichrist and his followers will be destroyed when the Lord comes in the clouds.

6. The just will be resurrected after the coming of Antichrist.

7. The righteous will reign in the earth.

8. The survivors of the tribulation will serve in the kingdom and multiply on the earth.

9. After the kingdom will come the general resurrection and judgement.

10. After the judgment will come the new heavens and new earth.

This is exactly the order of events foreseen by Dispensationalists of the persuasion that is now called the “mid-tribulation rapture.”

You just fit together random quotes from the ECFs in an order that suits Pretrib, and then magically present the ECFs as Pretribbers. The fact is: none of them were. You have presented nothing to support a rapture of the Church, followed by a 7 years trib followed by a 3rd coming, here or in Scripture. It wasn't invented until 1830.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Many attempt to discredit Dispensationalism by claiming that the church never taught it before about 1830. Such a claim is ridiculous, because the famous church historian Eusebius, who wrote in the mid fourth century, said that there had been “many” early church writers who held the same opinions as Papias. (“The Church History,” by Eusebius, book 3, chapter 39. - Papias was the earliest Christian commentator on Bible prophecy that we know about. He is thought to have written sometime between the years 110 and 130. Irenaeus called him “a hearer of John.” (“Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, Book V, chapter XXXIII, section 4.) But the church of the dark ages did not see fit to preserve any of his writings. We only have ten small fragments from his books that were quoted by writers dating from before the dark ages.) But of all these “many” early writers, only the writings of a few of them have been preserved. Since we know that there were “many” such writers, and we do not know what they wrote, then any claim that none of them ever taught any particular doctrine is pure nonsense.

But in addition to the foolishness of making claims about what these lost writings did or did not say, we also find clear statements about differences of opinion in the oldest Christian comments on Bible prophecy that were preserved. The oldest of these was the Epistle of Barnabas. Some scholars assign this epistle a date as early as 100, but others point to internal evidence that it could not have been written before about 130. In this epistle we read:

“Ye ought therefore to understand. And this also I further beg of you, as being one of you, and loving you both individually and collectively more than my own soul, to take heed now to yourselves, and not to be like some, adding largely to your sins, and saying, “The covenant is both theirs and ours.” But they thus finally lost it, after Moses had already received it. For the Scripture saith, “And Moses was fasting in the mount forty days and forty nights, and received the covenant from the Lord, tables of stone written with the finger of the hand of the Lord;” but turning away to idols, they lost it.” (Epistle of Barnabas, chapter IV - All quotations of Barnabas, Justin Martyr, and Irenaeus in this article are from Volume 1 of “The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers,” edited by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, as found in its American edition edited by A. Cleveland Coxe, and as found online at Welcome to the CCEL - Christian Classics Ethereal Library.)


The next oldest statement we have about such differences of opinion concerning Bible prophecy was made by Justin, who is called Justin Martyr because he was martyred. Chapter eighty of his “Dialogue With Trypho,” which is believed to date from about the year 170, begins as follows:

“And Trypho to this replied, ‘I remarked to you sir, that you are very anxious to be safe in all respects, since you cling to the Scriptures. But tell me, do you really admit that this place, Jerusalem, shall be rebuilt; and do you expect your people to be gathered together, and made joyful with Christ and the patriarchs, and the prophets, both the men of our nation, and other proselytes who joined them before your Christ came? Or have you given way, and admitted this in order to have the appearance of worsting us in the controversies?’
“Then I answered, ‘I am not so miserable a fellow, Trypho, as to say one thing and think another. I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion, and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise.’” (Dialogue with Tyrpho, by Justin Martyr, chapter LXXX.)

The next oldest of the Christian comments we have that reveal disagreement on Bible prophecy were made by Irenaeus, and are thought to have been written sometime between the years 186 and 188. Chapter thirty of the fifth book of his famous work called “Against Heresies” begins as follows:

"Such, then, being the state of the case, and this number being found in all the most approved and ancient copies [of the Apocalypse], and those men who saw John face to face bearing their testimony [to it]; while reason also leads us to conclude that the number of the name of the beast, [if reckoned] according to the Greek mode of calculation by the [value of] the letters contained in it, will amount to six hundred and sixty and six; that is, the number of tens shall be equal to that of the hundreds, and the number of hundreds equal to that of the units (for that number which [expresses] the digit six being adhered to throughout, indicates the recapitulations of that apostasy, taken in its full extent, which occurred at the beginning, during the intermediate periods, and which shall take place at the end),—I do not know how it is that some have erred following the ordinary mode of speech, and have vitiated the middle number in the name, deducting the amount of fifty from it, so that instead of six decads they will have it that there is but one. [I am inclined to think that this occurred through the fault of the copyists, as is wont to happen, since numbers also are expressed by letters; so that the Greek letter which expresses the number sixty was easily expanded into the letter Iota of the Greeks.] Others then received this reading without examination; some in their simplicity, and upon their own responsibility, making use of this number expressing one decad; while some, in their inexperience, have ventured to seek out a name which should contain the erroneous and spurious number. Now, as regards those who have done this in simplicity, and without evil intent, we are at liberty to assume that pardon will be granted them by God. But as for those who, for the sake of vainglory, lay it down for certain that names containing the spurious number are to be accepted, and affirm that this name, hit upon by themselves, is that of him who is to come; such persons shall not come forth without loss, because they have led into error both themselves and those who confided in them. Now, in the first place, it is loss to wander from the truth, and to imagine that as being the case which is not; then again, as there shall be no light punishment [inflicted] upon him who either adds or subtracts anything from the Scripture, under that such a person must necessarily fall. Moreover, another danger, by no means trifling, shall overtake those who falsely presume that they know the name of Antichrist. For if these men assume one [number], when this [Antichrist] shall come having another, they will be easily led away by him, as supposing him not to be the expected one, who must be guarded against." (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXX, section 1.)

Again, chapter thirty-five of this same work begins:

“If, however, any shall endeavour to allegorize [prophecies] of this kind, they shall not be found consistent with themselves in all points, and shall be confuted by the teaching of the very expressions [in question].” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXXV, section 1.)

Irenaeus did not explicitly state in this place that some in his day were actually attempting to allegorize these prophecies, but the very form of this statement would make no sense if such doctrine was not being taught. Indeed, we see the essence of the doctrine of Irenaeus was denouncing last part of the conclusion to the first part of the Epistle of Barnanas, which is, “For if I should write to you about things future, ye would not understand, because such knowledge is hid in parables. These things then are so.” (Epistle of Barnabas, chapter XVII)

When taken together, these statements conclusively prove that even by the time of the writing of these documents, which are the very oldest Christian comments on Bible prophecy that have been preserved, there was no agreement between Christians on such major points as whether the covenant belonged to the Church alone, or to both the Church and Israel, whether or not Jerusalem would be literally restored, whether Bible prophecy should be interpreted literally or allegorically, and even what was the correct text of the Revelation.

But because they are completely ignorant of all this, many Preterists, many Amillennialists, many Covenant Theologians, and many who hold the doctrine of the post tribulation rapture claim that the church never taught any view except their own during its first millennium and a half or more. All such claims are inappropriate and vain, for the only thing that is significant is what the Bible itself says. But in addition to their being unprofitable and vain, all of these claims are completely incorrect.

As we consider these documents, we need to remember that most of them are not primarily about Bible prophecy, although they discuss it. The point of the Epistle of Barnabas was to oppose Judaizing teachers in the church. Justin’s point in his “Dialogue With Trypho” was to evangelize Jews. And Irenaeus was demonstrating the errors of Gnostacism. So none of these three very early documents contains anything even resembling a full treatment of Bible prophecy.

But before we begin this examination, let it be perfectly clear that we consider it wholly unacceptable to attribute any authority whatsoever to these documents, other than their historical value. It is serious bad doctrine to claim that the writings of any man, or of any group of men, are authoritative. Our only true and proper authority is the word of God itself, the Bible.

Barnabas is an Amil, and teaches nothing about a future sin-cursed goat-infested death-blighted millennium.

 

[sovereigngrace]

After mentioning Papias and Barnabas, you state,

The next oldest statement we have about such differences of opinion concerning Bible prophecy was made by Justin, who is called Justin Martyr because he was martyred. Chapter eighty of his “Dialogue With Trypho,” which is believed to date from about the year 170, begins as follows:

What about the non-millennialists you ignore?

Thaddeus
Edessa, Syria
(early 1st Century)

The Didache (or Teaching of the Twelve Apostles)
Palestine
(A.D. 65-80)

Mathetes
Greece
(A.D 90)

The Shepherd of Hermas
Rome, Italy
(written in 88-99 AD)

Clement
Bishop of Rome, Italy
(Died around 99 A.D.)

The grandsons of Jude
Palestine
(1st century)

2 Clement
Rome, Italy
(Early 2nd century)

Ignatius
Bishop of Antioch, Syria
(A.D. 98-117)

Polycarp
Bishop in Smyrna, Turkey
(Born AD 68, writes about AD 110, martyred about AD 155)

The Ascension of Isaiah
Palestine
(late 1st century to early 2nd century)

 

[BABerean2]

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf
.

 

[Biblewriter]

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf
.

The material previously posted in this thread conclusively proves that the first two of these articles are completely incorrect. And the third article has zero bearing on the question. For whether someone else did or did not misrepresent some facts has zero bearing on what I posted.

 

[BABerean2]

The material previously posted in this thread conclusively proves that the first two of these articles are completely incorrect. And the third article has zero bearing on the question. For whether someone else did or did not misrepresent some facts has zero bearing on what I posted.

Did any of the earlier sources claim modern Jews would come to salvation outside of the Church?

.

 

[Randy777]

Did any of the earlier sources claim modern Jews would come to salvation outside of the Church?

.

The NT was written for future generations. It's salvation by the forgiveness of sins. Jesus is how God chose to forgive sin.

All we can tell them is that there is a testimony that better explains the absence of a high priest on earth then what they have been taught. The message of the gospels. "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

One might state, "I don't need Jesus as I can just ask God to forgive my sins"

One who knows their Lord would reply "Its not for you to choose how to forgive sin"

Those that GOD calls His children.
children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

So not saved outside of faith in Christ Jesus.

If any in the time of the end have even a shred of love/faith in God they will believe the signs given in Rev 11 and become members of the body of Christ. The last witness before the lie and destruction of the beast is allowed into the world. For God is a loving and just God. Those who take joy in the killing of Gods two witnesses will believe in the lie of the beast. For many false signs and wonders will be allowed to deceive the world into believing that lie. Those who love evil and refuse to repent and believe in Jesus.

 

[Biblewriter]

Did any of the earlier sources claim modern Jews would come to salvation outside of the Church?

.

I am really getting tired of the blatant dishonesty in the way you phrase this statement you keep making. You are dishonestly trying to make people people that dispensationalists teach that people can be saved without trusting in the Lord Jesus. This is intentional misrepresentation of what you know to be the facts. And that is the very definition of dishonesty.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Did any of the earlier sources claim modern Jews would come to salvation outside of the Church?

.

No!

 

[sovereigngrace]

I am really getting tired of the blatant dishonesty in the way you phrase this statement you keep making. You are dishonestly trying to make people people that dispensationalists teach that people can be saved without trusting in the Lord Jesus. This is intentional misrepresentation of what you know to be the facts. And that is the very definition of dishonesty.

But Dispensationalism believes the cross did not have to occur. Jesus came to set up a physical earthly kingdom, not die. That is heresy!

 

[BABerean2]

But Dispensationalism believes the cross did not have to occur. Jesus came to set up a physical earthly kingdom, not die. That is heresy!

One of the greatest errors of the doctrine is the claim that God did not fulfill His promises to the Jewish people, through the sacrifice of His son at Calvary.

This claim is found below in the book "Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty", by Manuel Lacunza. Edward Irving translated the book into English, and presented doctrine from the book at the Albury Prophetic conferences in the U.K.

Many of the proponents of the doctrine do not want the recent history of the doctrine to be exposed.


Genesis of Dispensational Theology

.

 

[BABerean2]

I am really getting tired of the blatant dishonesty in the way you phrase this statement you keep making. You are dishonestly trying to make people people that dispensationalists teach that people can be saved without trusting in the Lord Jesus. This is intentional misrepresentation of what you know to be the facts. And that is the very definition of dishonesty.

It is not a statement.

"Did any of the earlier sources claim modern Jews would come to salvation outside of the Church?"

It is a question.

.

 

[sovereigngrace]

One of the greatest errors of the doctrine is the claim that God did not fulfill His promises to the Jewish people, through the sacrifice of His son at Calvary.

This claim is found below in the book "Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty", by Manuel Lacunza. Edward Irving translated the book into English, and presented doctrine from the book at the Albury Prophetic conferences in the U.K.

Many of the proponents of the doctrine do not want the recent history of the doctrine to be exposed.


Genesis of Dispensational Theology

.

I totally agree. That alone would be enough evidence for a Bible believing Christian to run from it. The roots of it are in the Jesuits. Edward Irvine legitimized it and brought it to the Evangelical world. Your spot on. JN Darby then formalized it into A “Systematic theology.“

 

[sovereigngrace]

Duplicate

 

[ralliann]

Duplicate

Something that troubles me is the idea that God has not yet fulfilled all the promises to Israel. As if God owed them something he does not.

If they heard and kept his judgements
Then God will keep his covenant of mercy he sware to their fathers.

De 7:12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:

Furthermore God made two covenants with Abraham. The land covenant concerned the fourth generation of his seed Gen 15.

Fulfilled.....
1Ki 8:56 Blessed be the LORD, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant.

Covenant made in Genesis 17
God made the Abrahamic promises of the covenant made in circumcision CONDITIONAL, based upon them keeping all the law.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Chapter 16. Watchfulness; The Coming of the Lord
Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord comes. Matthew 24:42 But often shall you come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you be not made perfect in the last time. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; Matthew 24:11-12 for when lawlessness increases, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, Matthew 24:10 and then shall appear the world-deceiver as the Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning. Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and shall perish; but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first, the sign of an outspreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven.

CHURCH FATHERS: The Didache

The Early Church Fathers and the
Foundations of Dispensationalism

Larry V. Crutchfield

Professor of Early Christian History & Culture
Columbia Evangelical Seminary, Longview, WA

https://digitalshowcase.oru.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1001&context=cotm_pub

Ireaeus: Is he a Second Century Testimony to Dispensational, Pretribulational, Premillennialism?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Chapter 16. Watchfulness; The Coming of the Lord
Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord comes. Matthew 24:42 But often shall you come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you be not made perfect in the last time. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; Matthew 24:11-12 for when lawlessness increases, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, Matthew 24:10 and then shall appear the world-deceiver as the Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning. Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and shall perish; but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first, the sign of an outspreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven.

CHURCH FATHERS: The Didache

The Early Church Fathers and the
Foundations of Dispensationalism

Larry V. Crutchfield

Professor of Early Christian History & Culture
Columbia Evangelical Seminary, Longview, WA

https://digitalshowcase.oru.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1001&context=cotm_pub

Ireaeus: Is he a Second Century Testimony to Dispensational, Pretribulational, Premillennialism?

This is all nonsense. All the ECF were Posttrib. No one believed Pretrib error until it was invented by a Jesuit in the early 1800s. There’s no where in scripture that teaches a rapture of the church, followed by seven-year tribulation, followed by a third coming of Jesus.

 

[5thKingdom]

Let us first consider whether or not these documents can be assigned to any modern system of doctrine.

.


With all due respect, you made at least three mistakes,
rather there are at least three mistakes in your post, some
were made by early church fathers.


For the sake of simplicity I will address them separately in
three different posts. So this is post #1 of #3


First, I am new to dispensentionalism and not aware of the
past teachings, but the writings you mentioned did not precede
the teachings of Jesus Christ which clearly NAMED three different
separate and distinct "Kingdoms of Heaven" on earth before the
establishment of the Eternal Kingdom - and suggested another
fourth "Kingdom of Heaven" existed.


(1) First, in Matthew 22:2-7 Jesus describes the (2nd) Jewish
"Kingdom of Heaven" which is DESTROYED [v7] and given
to another nation - which is clearly the Christian Kingdom
[v8-14]


Mat 22:2
The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king,
which made a marriage for his son,


This example of Jesus NAMING the Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven"
is reinforced in Matthew 21:43-45 where the Lord explained the
Jewish Kingdom would be TAKEN from them and GIVEN to another
nation which would bring forth fruit. Notice (a) the Jews understood
the Lord was talking about THEM and (b) history, aka "reality" shows
the Christian "Kingdom" followed the Jewish "Kingdom"


Mat 21:43
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God
shall be TAKEN from you, and GIVEN to a nation bringing
forth the fruits thereof.


Mat 21:45
And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables,
they perceived that he spake of them.


(2) After the destruction of the Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven"
[Mat 22:7] and after the "Kingdom of God" was TAKEN from
the Jews and GIVEN to the Christians, Jesus then NAMES the
(3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" on earth in Matthew 13
(in 8 separate verses... and many other passages, I will only
show ONE verse to prove this point)


Mat 13:47
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net,
that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:


(3) Before talking about the FOURTH "Kingdom of Heaven"
on earth I want to talk about the FIRST "Kingdom" which,
of course is shown in history ("reality") as the Pre-Flood
"Kingdom of Heaven" containing all the Saints from Adam
to Noah. While this is the ONLY "Kingdom of Heaven" not
specifically NAMED by Jesus... I hope no mature Christian
disputes the Pre-Flood Saints preceded the Jewish Saints.


(4) The last TEMPORAL "Kingdom of Heaven" on earth...
the "Kingdom" immediately preceding the Eternal "Kingdom"
was specifically NAMED by Jesus [Mat 25:1-13] as being the
(4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven".


Mat 25:1
Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins,
which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.


This is normally the hardest "Kingdom" for Christians to accept
because we were always taught the Great Tribulation period was
PART (the ending) of the Christian "Kingdom". However, Jesus
specifically NAMED it as a separate and distinct "Kingdom" and
He specifically NAMED those included as being the "ten virgins",
which represent the LAST "wheat and tares" on earth.


These ten "virgins" are shown as ten "kings/horns" in BOTH
Daniel 7 AND Revelation 17 (and as ten "kings" in Dan 2:44)
in EACH case they are the people in the Fourth "Kingdom" on
earth which is also shown as the Revelation Beast.


I will write more about these ten "virgins/kings/horns" in another
message but I feel that right now I should explain the DIFFERENCE
between the four (4) TEMPORAL "Kingdoms of Heaven" on earth
and the one (1) ETERNAL "Kingdom of God".


(5) The (5th) Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven" is NAMED by Jesus
in Matthew chapters 5 and 7 and 8 and 19... and other places.
But I will skip over that "Kingdom" for now, except to say that,
unlike the previous "Kingdoms" it is (a) not TEMPORAL and
(b) contains no unsaved "tares".


This difference is important to understand because most people
incorrectly assume the two "Kingdoms" represent the same thing.
Most of that is ignorance of Scripture but some is the fact that they
can by used interchangeably IN SOME CASES.


--------------------------------------------------------

The phrase "Kingdom of Heaven" is used thirty-three (33)
times in the Bible and every time the phrase represents
the many unsaved "tares" and/or the few saved "wheat",
associated with preaching the "Word of the Kingdom"
(the Gospel) during one of the FOUR KINGDOMS on earth...
or it represents ONLY the saved "wheat" harvested into
the (5th) Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven".

-------------------------------------------------------------

The four "Kingdoms of Heaven" are physical and temporal
Kingdoms... and there's a "harvest" of Saints at the end of
each, with the "Final Harvest" including only the "Wise Virgins"
living during the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven"
[Mat 25:1]

---------------------------------------------------------

The phrase "Kingdom of God" is used seventy (70) times
in the Bible and every time it represents the Holy Spirit of God
and/or the souls (but not the bodies) of the saved "wheat"
who have been regenerated by His "indwelling" Holy Spirit.
To be clear, the "Kingdom of God" is a SUBSET of
the "Kingdom of Heaven" since it only includes the saved
"wheat", and none of the unsaved "tares".

---------------------------------

Therefore, the Bible can use the phrases interchangeably
when it focuses only on the "wheat" within the Kingdom.
When focused only on the "wheat", the Bible can use
"Kingdom of Heaven" OR "Kingdom of God". And that
is why we have several parallel passages in the Bible
that can (and do) interchange these two phrases.

-----------------------------------

Jim
.

 

[5thKingdom]

“But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months,

The Antichrist doe NOT rule for 3.5 years. This can be proven
by two different ways.


(1) First, the Bible PROMISED the truth about Daniel's prophecies
would remain "closed-up" and "sealed" to all Saint's until the
Last Saints "shall understand" at the "time-of-the-end"
[Dan 12:4 and 12:8-10] which is also shown as being the
"Season and Time" AFTER the fourth Beast is destroyed
[Dan 7:11-12]


Since all "interpretations" about the rule of the "Little Horn"
(or Antichrist) were developed hundreds of years ago...
we can know absolutely they are wrong because they
were developed during a time when the Bible PROMISED
the Truth would remain "sealed".

Either the "interpretations" are wrong or the Bible is wrong...
Obviously the Bible is not wrong.


(2) Secondly, the 3.5 "years" in which the Antichrist supposedly
rules is shown in MANY other passages... obviously such an
important event is not shown in one or two passages.
I am aware of about TWO DOZEN passages related
to this period. But I will only list a few that talk
about the 3.5 "years"... which is also shown
as 3.5 "watches of the night".
(more on that later)


(a) The "Woman" which was hidden from the face of the "serpent"
for 3.5 "times" [Rev 12]


(b) The "Holy People" whose "power is scattered" by the Anti-Christ
for 3.5 "times" [Dan 12]


(c) The "Kings" that are "given into his hand" [into the Anti-Christ's hand]
for 3.5 "times" [Dan 7]


(d) The "Witnesses" which are first "overcome" and are later "killed" by Satan
for 3.5 "days" [Rev 11]


(e) The "Holy City" which the Anti-Christ "treads under foot" for forty-two months
or 3.5 "years" [Rev 11]


(f) The "Ruler of the Last Saints" as the Anti-Christ "makes war" for forty-two months
or 3.5 "years" [Rev 13]


While I understand this is NEW INFORMATION for most, we must always keep Scripture
in the proper CONTEXT. And (a) the Bible says the "Season and Time" is the period AFTER
Daniel's Fourth Beast/Kingdom is "given to the Burning Flame" [Dan 7:11-12] which is the
SAME EVENT as the Revelation Beast being "cast alive into the Lake of Fire" [Rev 19:20]
AND (b) the Bible PROMISED the truth about Daniel's Prophecies (and the Antichrist) would
remain "closed-up" and "sealed" until the "time-of-the-end" [Dan 12:4 and 12:8-10] which
is the same period as the "Season and Time" AND (c) the PEOPLE living during this period
known as the "time-of-the-end" or the "Season and Time" are the LAST "wheat and tares"
on earth which are NAMED the ten "virgins" in the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven"
[Mat 25:1-13] or the ten "kings/horns" in both Daniel 7 AND Revelation 17 or the ten "kings"
of Daniel 2:44.


Make no mistake, any "interpretations" about Daniel's Fourth Beast (aka Revelation Beast)
could NEVER be true if they were developed during the time when the Bible PROMISES they
remain "closed-up" and "sealed" from all the Saints until the LAST Saints (the "wise virgins")
living during the period called the "time-of-the-end" or the "Season and Time" after the
Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven".


I realize this is a hard truth to accept - I was raised learning the SAME eschatological theories
as most others (about Rome being the Fourth Kingdom of Daniel - which is just a LIE) but we
cannot pretend to have found Biblical Truth unless/until we have harmony of Scripture with all
of the information provided above... and much more that I have not revealed. In the next post
I will PROVE why Daniel's Fourth Beast was NOT Rome or any other physical/political Kingdom.


Jim
.

 

[5thKingdom]

This is all nonsense. All the ECF were Posttrib. No one believed Pretrib error until it was invented by a Jesuit in the early 1800s. There’s no where in scripture that teaches a rapture of the church, followed by seven-year tribulation, followed by a third coming of Jesus.

Absolutely correct

.