• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

Dispensationalism in Ancient Christian Writings

Discussion in 'Dispensationalism' started by Biblewriter, Nov 20, 2012.

  1. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie


    (1) First, we can know ABSOLUTELY that the "interpretations" about a Roman Empire
    (or any other physical/political empire) rising-up and producing the "Little Horn" or the
    "False Prophet" or the MAN commonly called THE Antichrist have ZERO chance of being
    Biblical because the Bible PROMISED the Truth of Daniel's Prophecies (and the "Little Horn")
    would remain "closed-up" and "sealed" until the "time-of-the-end" when the LAST Saints
    (aka, the "wise virgins" of the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" see Mat 25:1-13]
    would be the FIRST Saints who "shall understand" Daniel's prophecies.
    [Dan 12:4 and 12:8-10]

    So any and all "interpretations" BEFORE the "wise virgins" are automatically incorrect
    because they were developed during a time when the Bible PROMISED they were "sealed".
    And this includes any and all "interpretations about Daniel's "Abomination of Desolation",
    which is actually SHOWN in about TWO DOZEN different passages... you did not think
    that such an important event was only shown once or twice in Scripture - did you?

    (2) The easiest way to PROVE that Daniel's Fourth Beast did not represent Rome or some
    version of a NEW Roman Empire (including the EU and all it's variations) or any OTHER
    physical/political nation is found in Daniel 7:11-12 and Revelation 19:20.

    In Daniel 7:11-12 we are told that AFTER the Fourth Beast is "given to the Burning Flame"
    the previous Beasts/Kingdoms have "their lives prolonged for a Season and Time"... which
    represents the SAME period as the "time-of-the-end" in Daniel 12:8-10.

    Dan 7:11-12
    I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the [Little] horn spake:
    I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
    As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives
    were prolonged for a season and time

    It is important to understand the CONTEXT of this passage. The Fourth Beast being destroyed
    and "given to the Burning Flame" is the SAME EVENT as the Revelation Beast being destroyed
    (since they represent the same "Beast") and "cast alive into the Lake of Fire" [Rev 19:20]

    Rev 19:20
    And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him,
    with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that
    worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    Both Daniel 7:11-12 and Rev. 19:20 represent the Revelation Beast/Daniel's Fourth Beast
    being sent into Hell (or the Second Death for those who do not like the term Hell) WHILE
    the PREVIOUS BEASTS/KINGDOMS had their lives prolonged for a "Season and Time".

    I am not aware of ANY (mainstream or traditional) Gospel that teaches all the PEOPLE
    from the previous Beasts/Kingdoms continue to live on earth for a "Season and Time"
    AFTER the PEOPLE in the last Kingdom/Beast are cast into Hell.

    Therefore, it is clear the BIBLE teaches Daniel's Fourth Beast and/or the Revelation Beast
    does NOT represent Rome, or a "revised" Rome (or any other physical/political Kingdom).

    Now... the question becomes, WHERE ELSE in the Bible does it teach about the PEOPLE
    living in the LAST "Kingdom" on earth? And, of course, the answer is simple; the Bible
    teaches about the LAST "wheat and tares" on earth who live during the Great Tribulation
    "Kingdom of Heaven" in Matthew 25:1-13.

    Mat 25:1-2
    [during the Great Tribulation] shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins,
    which took their lamps, [their Gospels] and went forth [from the Christian Kingdom of Heaven]
    to meet the bridegroom.[Jesus] And five of them were wise, [saved "wheat"] and five were
    foolish. [unsaved "tares"]

    In fact, the LAST "wheat and tares" on earth are NAMED by JESUS as being the "ten virgins".
    These same people are called the ten "kings/horns" in BOTH Daniel 7 AND Revelation 17.
    In each case these people are RULED by the "Little Horn" or "False Prophet" (the Antichirst)
    These "ten virgins" follow the Antichrist... as they "went forth" into the Great Tribulation
    "Kingdom of Heaven".

    These same people, called the ten "kings/horns" are RULED by the Antichrist during Daniel's
    Fourth Beast and the Revelation Beast... but the "wise virgins" (the Last Saints) are only
    RULED during the FIRST Revelation Beast (the 1st Woe or Fifth Trumpet or Seventh "head")
    only the "foolish virgins" are RULED during the SECOND Revelation Beast (in the 2nd Woe
    or the Sixth Trumpet or the Eighth "head")

    Dan 7:24-25
    And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise
    after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. And he
    shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High,
    and think to change times and laws: and they [the ten kings/horns] shall be given into his hand
    until a time and times and the dividing of time.[3.5 "times/days/years/watches of the night"]

    Rev 17:12-13
    And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet;
    [during the Great Commission] but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have
    one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

    Rev 17:17
    For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree,
    and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

    So there you have it (a) proof that Daniel's Fourth Beast/Revelation Beast is NOT Rome
    or any other physical/political Kingdom and (b) proof the LAST "wheat and tares" are called
    ten "virgins/kings/horns" and they AGREE to "give their Kingdom to the Beast" during the
    period the Lord specifically NAMED as the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven".

    Of course there is more... so much more... but this is enough to PROVE all previous
    interpretations about Daniel's Fourth Beast/the Revelation Beast (and Daniel's "Abomination")
    were NOT BIBLICALLY CORRECT because the Bible PROMISED the Truth about these prophecies
    would remain "closed-up" and "sealed" until the Last Saints ("wise virgins") "shall understand".

  2. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

    United States
    This thread is not about the accuracy of anything these ancient writers said. I am aware of numerous errors in their teachings. It is only the HARD PROOF that the basic concepts of Dispensationalism go all the way back to the very beginnings of Christian teaching in regards to Bible prophecy. And the ONLY significance of that its to disprove the claim that Dispensationalism could not even possibly be correct because it was never taught before around 1830.
  3. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie


    Fair enough.

  4. Fullness of the Gentiles

    Fullness of the Gentiles One nation in Christ Supporter

    United Kingdom
    I only joined here in 2020 and I appreciate this thread, though I can't be called a Dispensationalist.

    To tell you the truth, I don't like all these "ists" and "isms", and it would be good to know when they began to be used by Christians. No Christian deserves to be pigeon-holed like that. I think it's border-line sinful to use them because they tend to be used in accusatory slurs by some Christians against others.

    Your thread here is proof that there were Pre-millenialists from the earliest times, and also people who believed in different dispensations. I believe in ages, and I guess I'm partial dispensationalist, because I do accept different dispensations in the gradual unfolding of God's plan and gradual introduction of the Kingdom of God in the world. I don't believe in one covenant for one Israel and another for another Israel, though.

    Nice thread, packed with info and good of you to have placed it up. Thank you :thumbsup:
  5. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie


    I must amend my previous response to this post
    (where I said "fair enough")

    I meant that what we NOW consider "dispensationalism"
    was not taught until around 1800... HOWEVER (as you noted)
    the "basic concepts" of dispensationalism "go all the way back
    to the very beginnings of Christian teaching..."

    So, in THAT SENSE, "dispensationalism" (as a basic concept)
    did not begin in the 1800's.

    I make this distinction in light of the comment above,
    to which I (again) show the "basic concept" of different
    "dispensations" has been understood by the OT saints and
    the NT saints.

  6. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie


    Of course that depends on WHAT we consider as different
    "dispensations". While it is true that MODERN "Dispensationalism"
    is a relatively new teaching, it is equally true that the "basic concept"
    of different dispensations has ALWAYS been understood by saints.

    (1) Jewish saints understood they were a different "dispensation"
    from the saints in the (1st) Pre-Flood "Kingdom of Heaven".

    (2) Likewise, Christian saints understood they were a different
    "dispensation" from the saints in the (1st) Pre-Flood "Kingdom"
    and from the saints in the (2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven"
    [Mat 22:2 and Mat 21:43]

    Clearly, the "Kingdom" cannot be TAKEN from the Jews and
    GIVEN to the Christians unless they were different "dispensations".

    Mat 21:43
    Therefore say I unto you, The Kingdom of God
    shall be TAKEN from you, and GIVEN to a nation bringing
    forth the fruits thereof.

    Mat 21:45
    And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables,
    they perceived that he spake of them.

    In fact, the historical FACT that the Jewish Kingdom did not
    include Gentiles while the Christian Kingdom included BOTH
    Jew and Gentile ("the world") demonstrates this Biblical fact.

    3) Moreover, we now know the saints living during the
    (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]
    were a DIFFERENT "dispensation" as the saints living in the
    (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13] and the saints
    living in the (2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2]
    and saints living in the (1st) Pre-Flood "Kingdom of Heaven"...
    not to mention all of the saints who are included during in the
    final (5th) Eternal "Kingdom of "Heaven" [Mat 8:11],
    which is EXCLUSIVE to saints from each previous "Kingdoms".

    In other words, the HISTORY of man is a just a REFLECTION of
    God's salvation plan over four (temporal) "Kingdoms of Heaven"
    before the (5th) Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven". While this Biblical
    FACT was promised to remain a "sealed" mystery to all previous
    Saints [Dan 12:8-10] it was also PROMISED that the Last Saints
    "shall understand" this mystery.

    Dan 12:8-10
    And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord,
    what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel:
    for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
    Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked
    shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand;
    but the wise shall understand.

    While that is a true statement it does not change the reality
    that GOD has designed HISTORY to reflect His salvation Plan
    over four (temporal) "Kingdoms" before the Eternal Kingdom.

    Of course there were saints who understood the A-Millennial
    "Kingdom" from the days of the Apostles (see 2Thess 2:1-2).

    Of course, one could argue that, it is not possible to understand
    HISTORY and deny the different "dispensations" of God's Plan of
    salvation... although many "Christians" still do so.

    Which is just the FULFILLMENT of Daniel 12:8-10, as the TRUTH
    about Daniel's four "Kingdoms" on earth remained "sealed" and
    "closed up" to all saints until the the Last Saints "shall understand"
    during the period specifically NAMED the "time of the end"
    (or the "Season and Time" of Dan 7:11-12)

    BTW... this "time of the end" or "Season and Time" AFTER the
    end of the Fourth Beast is also shown as the time AFTER the end
    of the Second "Woe" but BEFORE the start of the Third Woe
    [Rev 11:14] and shown again as the time BETWEEN Rev 19:20
    and Rev 20:10.

    But, again, this is information that was "sealed" and "closed-up"
    to all Saints until it was "revealed" to the Last Saints [Rev 10:7-11]
    to be preached as the Seventh Trumpet "begins to sound".

    Last edited: Nov 18, 2020
  7. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

    United States
    Dispensationalism was taught by none of the early writers. Any attempts to suggest this comes from a prejudiced attitude to false teaching and a desperation to prove the unprovable. Anything you have previously provided is twisted to say the opposite of the truth.
  8. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie


    You can say whatever you want about "dispensationalism",
    and I do not know or care about the doctrines/dogmas that
    have been established... but you cannot dispute history (reality).

    The reality is God (initially) established a Pre-Flood "Kingdom".
    When that Kingdom was finished God established a Jewish
    "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2]. Obviously the Gospel
    of the Jewish period was different than the Pre-Flood.

    Jesus tells us the "Kingdom of God" was TAKEN from the Jews
    and GIVEN to the Christians [Mat 21:43]. So there can be no
    (Biblical) dispute the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" revealed
    in Matthew 13 (in 8 verses) and elsewhere is the historical
    fulfillment of the Christian "church age"... with a different
    Gospel than the Jewish "Kingdom".

    So history (reality) confirms these three separate and distinct
    "Kingdoms" before God establishes the Great Tribulation
    "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]. To try to dispute
    that... is to try to dispute HISTORY (reality).

    Obviously the Great Tribulation Kingdom (aka, Revelation Beast)
    was a separate and distinct "Kingdom" than the Pre-Flood saints,
    and from the Jewish saints and from Christian saints (church age).

    And, obviously, the Gospel of the Great Tribulation "Kingdom"
    would be different from all previous "Kingdoms" because Jesus PROMISED Great Tribulation saints would "see all these things"
    [Mat 24:15 and 24:33] immediately before His Return. That would
    include not only the fulfillment of ALL Great Tribulation prophecies
    ("signs") but even the NAME of the Antichrist, and all events
    associated with the rise-and-fall of the Revelation Beast...
    as the Lord's Return is AFTER the Beast is destroyed.

    So the (correct) point that the early Christian saints did not
    understand these four "generations" or "Kingdoms" or
    "dispensations" is no more relevant to Biblical Truth
    than the fact the Jewish saints did not understand.
    It's an error to think early Christians would know
    more then the Last Saints [Acts 1:7]

    The Bible PROMISED this information remains "closed-up"
    and "sealed" (to all saints) until the Last Saints ("wise virgins")
    "shall understand" at the "time-of-the-end", which is also shown
    as the "Season and Time" on earth AFTER the Revelation Beast...
    more specifically, in the period after Rev 19:20 and before 20:10.

    There is no one alive that can REFUTE these facts from the Bible.
    At most people can only DENY these truths, which is EXACTLY
    what the Bible foretold in Daniel 12:8-10, only the Last Saints
    "shall understand" and PREACH these Biblical "mysteries",
    as the Seventh Trumpet "begins to sound" [Rev 10:7-11]

  9. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

    United States
    This not is reality. This the error you have been taught and which you constantly cut and paste. Stick to the Bible and you will see your teachers have taught you wrong.
  10. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie


    Which PART is not reality?
    Please be specific.

    Did the Pre-Flood Kingdom precede the Jewish Kingdom?
    Is that history/reality? Or do you think that is wrong?

    Did the Jewish Kingdom precede the Christian Kingdom?
    Is that history/reality? Or do you think that is wrong?

    Does the Christian Kingdom precede the Revelation Beast?
    Or do you think that wrong? Do you think the Great Tribulation
    (Revelation Beast) began BEFORE the "testimony" of the
    Christian saints "is finished"?

    Let me REMIND YOU of what I said in the previous post...
    since you have just confirmed what I said:

    There is no one alive that can REFUTE these facts from the Bible.
    At most people can only DENY these truths, which is EXACTLY
    what the Bible foretold in Daniel 12:8-10, only the Last Saints
    "shall understand" and PREACH these Biblical "mysteries",
    as the Seventh Trumpet "begins to sound" [Rev 10:7-11]

    Be sure to let me know when you can REFUTE anything
    I said from the Bible (instead of just DENY it)... as if your DENIAL
    means anything. Take your time, I will wait.

  11. Rachel20

    Rachel20 Well-Known Member

    United States
    It isn't a "post-Darby" (1800s) concept, though that error will probably never go away. Evidences from John Walvoords article Reflections on Dispensationalism -
    1) Pierre Poirets The Divine Economy - discusses seven dispensations, written in 1687
    2) John Edwards A Compleat History or Survey of all the Dispensations and Methods of Religion - published in 1699
    3) The Works of the Reverend and Learned Isaac Watts (1674-1748) - wrote on dispensational distinctives
  12. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter


    Did any if these earlier sources claim modern Jews would be saved outside of the Church during a future time, which is one of the greatest errors of modern Dispensational Theology?

  13. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie


    Your argument is invalid... since the Bible PROMISES [Dan 12:8-10]
    this information remained "closed-up" and "sealed" to all saints
    until the Last Saints "shall understand" at the "time of the end",
    which is also shown as the "Season and Time" and the period
    when the Seventh Trumpet "begins to sound".

    The FACT is, JESUS specifically NAMED four of the five
    "dispensations" of salvation, which JESUS called the
    "Kingdoms of Heaven"

    Jesus specifically NAMED the (2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven"
    in Matthew 22:2 and 21:43

    Jesus specifically NAMED the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"
    in Matthew 13 (in 8 different verses) and many other passages.

    Jesus specifically NAMED the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of
    " (also shown as the 7-Headed Revelation Beast) which
    occurs immediately before His Return [Mat 25:1-13]

    And Jesus specifically NAMED the (5th) Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven" in Matthew 8:11 (and many other verses) showing
    that Kingdom contains all the saints from EACH previous Kingdom.

    Of course the FIRST "Kingdom of Heaven" was the Pre-Flood
    Kingdom containing all the saints from Adam to Noah.

    So.... there can be no doubt that (a) the Truth remained "sealed"
    until the Last Saints "shall understand" and (b) the history of man
    is just the reflection of God's salvation plan over four (4) temporal
    "Kingdoms of Heaven" (containing both the saved and unsaved)
    before the Lord Returns to establish the fifth (5th) ETERNAL
    "Kingdom of Heaven" which contains ONLY the saved and
    ONLY their incorruptible spiritual bodies.

    At least, that is what JESUS specifically NAMED,
    if we DARE to believe the Words of Christ.

  14. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

    United States
    We have already exposed your intentional attempt to mislead people in making this accusation about Dispensationalism.
  15. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter


    Classic Dispensationalists believe God will again go back to dealing with the modern nation of Israel after the end of the “Church Age”. They claim the Church is a “parenthesis” in God’s dealings with the nation of Israel.

    Lewis Sperry Chafer, the first president of Dallas Theological, had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church.

    “The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”

    Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.

    Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”

    Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.

    John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…

    "...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”

    John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25

  16. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

    United States
    This last post is 100% accurate. That is what Dispensationalists teach, because that is what the Bible teaches. But you deceptively re-state this doctrine in a way that makes it seem like Dispensationalists are teaching that Jews can be saved without trusting in Christ.
  17. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter


    The only way you can get the Bible to teach what you claim is by ignoring the fact that about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant on the Day of Pentecost. The Gentiles were not grafted into the Church until several years later.

    You are ignoring the two different groups of Israelites in Romans 11:1-5.

    You are also ignoring the fact that James addressed his letter to "the twelve tribes" who were his "brethren" in the "faith", in James 1:1-3.

    You are also ignoring the home of the Old Testament Saints found in Hebrews 11:15-16, which is the only eternal home found in the Bible.

    Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology is revealed for what it really is.

    The New Covenant: Bob George