Discussion: Prophetic Seers?

[lamb7]

I am not being unkind.....I just agree with what he said about people getting their toes stepped on occasionally when the truth is spoken to them.

I understand, but it seems like ganging up on this particular sister. I wish to not argue. Plus I know Oscarr likes us to stay on topic too ;-)

 

[Heart2Soul]

I understand, but it seems like ganging up on this particular sister. I wish to not argue. Plus I know Oscarr likes us to stay on topic too ;-)

Well I took his reply as "in general" not as to a specific person......

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You have definitely hit the nail on the head here.....good insight.

There is a difference between kicking the ball and kicking the player. Kicking other players instead of the ball gets a red card and sent to the sin bin (this is not directed at you by the way).

 

[Heart2Soul]

There is a difference between kicking the ball and kicking the player. Kicking other players instead of the ball gets a red card and sent to the sin bin (this is not directed at you by the way).

Agreed....but I don't believe this person was kicking the player just pointing out how people misconstrue things.

 

[RaymondG]

Here is an example of something you might warm to. The community organisation I work for as my retirement income is having a funding crisis at the moment. In the early hours of this morning, when I couldn't sleep I was praying about some issues and I started to discuss the funding issue with the Lord. It felt right to me to ask God directly for $150,000 to get us over the funding crisis. So I went through the three steps of faith that I use to do that. I discussed about whether it was His will or not, because if I expect anything from the Lord I have to know that I am asking for something in His will. I told Him that I believed that it was His will to help us because our organisation is assisting families in poverty and if we had to close down, at least 300 families would suffer immensely. We run a total money management budgeting service for these people to get them out of extreme debt, stop evictions, and repossessions, and court action against them. So I felt that asking for the funds was in harmony with God's Word, and therefore was confident that it was His will to ask for the money.

Then I took the next step was to ask directly for the money, so I prayed, "Lord we need $150,000 to get us over our funding crisis and now I ask you specifically for it." The Scripture says, "If you ask anything in My will you will receive it." and, "You have not because you ask not" and "Everything by prayer and supplication make your requests known to God". So, I knew that I was doing the right thing by asking for it.

Then I took the next step, going on the Scripture, "Who who asks, receives." So, I said to the Lord, "I now receive that $150,000 from you. Then I said to the Lord, "Well, I have taken the three steps of faith in obedience to Your Word, and I leave the outcome to you."

I did not "command" the Lord, and I did not assume that I have already received it, "by faith". That would be presumption because I have not actually received the money in my hand yet. The receiving I did was an act of faith and obedience between the Lord and me, and not a presumption that He is a vending machine who will automatically say, "Here you are." This is because I don't know every aspect of God's will for our organisation.

The interesting part is that on my way home from the gym today, I thought about the prayer that I had prayed the previous night, and the thought came - "Should I praise God in advance for the money?" which is basic Word of Faith doctrine. But I decided not to and told the Lord that to do that would be presumption and not faith on my part. I had already taken the steps of faith and it was now up to Him to decide or decide not to advance the money. I would rather praise God when or if He provided the money through whatever means He decides. It is more appropriate to praise God after the event than to try and use praise to "prod" God into doing what we want.

You might find that approach interesting. Maybe some WOF folks might accuse me of unbelief because I will not assume that the money will definitely be provided just because I ask for it. The Lord has the sovereign right to say, "Yes", "No", or "Wait".

You are correct, I do find this approach interesting...... you following some scriptures (Everything by prayer and supplication make your requests known to God) While seemingly refusing to follow others (What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.)

But I like it.

I am, however, confused as to how this gives an example of a prophesy that leads one away from the lord. ARe you saying that if anyone told you you were wrong, they would be that example?

 

[RaymondG]

Let us be kind and gentle with the fellow sisters and brothers in Christ. We all mean well. Our fellow brethren are not our enemies. ♥

Sometimes we have to lay down the axe as well......Change or die! Jonah said. Some people remain deceived because they have "friends" that only encourages and tell them nice things....

"Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful."

A friend would not encourage a friend to continue to climb the high walls of self-righteousness....They would remind them of what happens to the Pharisees when a carpenter's son tried to talk to them......And they would remind them of what happened to humpty dumpty....

 

[Left]

A lot of what you say doesnt add up. But it is ok to believe that everyone who says this is trying to hurt you in some way or is of the devil......or need to study more......or is deceived..... or need your prayers......the list goes on and on.

Satan can influence even believers, I believe. Just look at us all getting on a boat and attacking our poor sister in Christ. Even I did today, I think.

Okay so I may not agree with everything she says in "just the way" she sometimes says it, but I really needed someone to turn to, and after I haven't *always* been the nicest person to her, even then she was still here for me. That says a lot about whether someone is a Bible-believing Christian.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You are correct, I do find this approach interesting...... you following some scriptures (Everything by prayer and supplication make your requests known to God) While seemingly refusing to follow others (What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.)

But I like it.

I am, however, confused as to how this gives an example of a prophesy that leads one away from the lord. ARe you saying that if anyone told you you were wrong, they would be that example?

Your first paragraph is correct, but some take it to extreme and use it to believe for more money, bigger houses, and flasher cars. But the verse has to be placed in harmony with "This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. New Living Translation And we are confident that he hears us whenever we ask for anything that pleases him" (1 John 5:14).
This shows that we must be quite sure that what we are asking for is according to His will and that what we ask for pleases Him. Because the Scripture says that the will of God is that we should believe on Him who God has sent (namely Jesus), then what we are asking for should be to enhanced our experience with God and to strengthen our faith in Christ.

So, for my request, God providing funding to keep the community organisation running and the needy families not cut loose to experience financial hardship and ruin with children going hungry and ragged, is according to God's will, because Jesus taught that we should always be mindful of the poor and do what we can to assist them. He said that it is no good saying, "Be warmed and fed" if we don't do anything to ensure that they are warmed and fed in practical ways. It enhances our experience with God because what results is a further testimony of God's love and grace in Him helping the needy in our society.

A prophecy that points people to Christ and strengthens their faith in Him is in harmony with God's Word. A false prophecy points people elsewhere. A good example of a false prophecy comes from a well-known preacher who had a self appointed prophet come up to him and gave him a prophecy that he would be famous and rich. The preacher didn't resonate with the prophecy at the time and put it on the back burner to see what would happen. Soon afterward, he developed serious back pain and two operations did not fix it. Then the Lord showed him that he was being attacked by a spirit of divination. He said to the Lord that he had never been involved in the occult at any time. Then the Lord showed him that the prophecy that he had received was not of Him and had a spirit of divination with it that was attacking him. When he renounced the prophecy and bound the spirit of divination, the back pain disappeared. The reason why the prophecy was false was that it was pointing at him instead of Christ, and that God never promises that a gospel preacher will become rich and famous.

The trouble with so many Charismatic prophecies is that they build up the person prophesied to, instead of pointing the person to Christ. False prophets in the OT were saying to the people that it did not matter that they were worshiping idols and living lawless lives, that they will not suffer the judgment of God on their nation, while the true prophets were warning the people to turn away from their idolatry and lawlessness and started getting right with the true and living God, otherwise they will suffer the judgment of God on their nation.

A true prophet of God will say to a preacher involved in embezzlement of funds or adultery to repent of their sin, turn back to God otherwise He will destroy their ministry. A false prophet will say not to worry about it because God will love him anyway and will extend his ministry and make him rich and famous. That is the difference between the two.

If the guy does repent of his sin and turns back to God, a true prophet will say that because he has repented, God will restore his ministry and restore everything that the locust and canker worm has eaten. A false prophet will say that because he has sinned, and even though he has repented, God will never restore him back to ministry. The true prophet will prophesy restoration, while the false one will prophesy condemnation.

Also, a true prophet will never advertise himself as a "prophet to the nations" but allow his ministry and the fruits of it to vindicate him in the eyes of others. Others may call him a prophet and that does not make him false. A false prophet will advertise himself and assert God's authority on what he says. In my view, if a hearer acknowledges that a word spoken is from the Holy Spirit to him, then that vindicates the prophecy. If the hearer does not concur with the prophecy, and the "prophet" bullies him into accepting the prophecy by telling him, "You better believe what I saw because I am speaking with God's authority to you", then that prophecy has to be false.

 

[lamb7]

Satan can influence even believers, I believe. Just look at us all getting on a boat and attacking our poor sister in Christ. Even I did today, I think.

Okay so I may not agree with everything she says in "just the way" she sometimes says it, but I really needed someone to turn to, and after I haven't *always* been the nicest person to her, even then she was still here for me. That says a lot about whether someone is a Bible-believing Christian.

Yea he laughs when he can get us believers to fight. We do his will, let us not do that and love as Christ loves us! I understand rebuke, but rebukes do not turn into ugly mean words and harassment.

 

[RaymondG]

Satan can influence even believers, I believe. Just look at us all getting on a boat and attacking our poor sister in Christ. Even I did today, I think.

Okay so I may not agree with everything she says in "just the way" she sometimes says it, but I really needed someone to turn to, and after I haven't *always* been the nicest person to her, even then she was still here for me. That says a lot about whether someone is a Bible-believing Christian.

We are speaking in general now, not any specific person. We wrestle not against flesh and blood. I see no poor sisters, nor sisters getting attacked.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Interesting. So If I were to tell you or these other posters that I believe you are a prophet of God and that you are showing the way to salvation.....you feel that this statement would be glorifying you and not God? You feel that I should not make this assertion or i may be possesses with an evil spirit?

But you are not because you know jolly well that I am not a prophet, so any comment like that would not be serious, and would not be believed anyway. If you did, I would think you are just stirring the pot to get a reaction out of me!

However, if you trolled every thread I started or commented in and kept on saying it over and again to where I got frustrated with you, I then might think you had a spirit of something and would bind it. I couldn't do that on the forum because it is against the flaming rule to bind a spirit in anyone on the forum.

You make a good point though.

 

[RaymondG]

Yea he laughs when he can get us believers to fight. We do his will, let us not do that and love as Christ loves us! I understand rebuke, but rebukes do not turn into ugly mean words and harassment.

You are inserting negativity where it isnt there. I saw no mean words. I think you should just leave it alone and get back to the op. It seems you are trying to stir up something.

 

[lamb7]

You are inserting negativity where it isnt there. I saw no mean words. I think you should just leave it alone and get back to the op. It seems you are trying to stir up something.

I am not trying to stir anything up, not my intention, I was making a statement. Everyone else got off topic pages ago. Everyone should leave well alone now, agreed.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I think I understand what you are saying.....about the previous thread.....you feel the whole prophesy was false because a portion of it was......but it is possible now...for a true prophet to give a prophesy now that is not 100% accurate.

For what i quoted above do you have a short example of a prophesy that a "christian" false prophet can give that would lead one away from Christ? So we can better recognize one. I say "Christian" to rule out outrageous things like...winning lotto, or starting yoga classes etc..

As I said before, the statement about Saul's death came from an impersonating demon and not from the real Samuel. and was to illustrate a point that demons can speak very accurately about a person's past, as psychics can do, but they are usually vague and inaccurate when predicting the future.

 

[lamb7]

As I said before, the statement about Saul's death came from an impersonating demon and not from the real Samuel. and was to illustrate a point that demons can speak very accurately about a person's past, as psychics can do, but they are usually vague and inaccurate when predicting the future.

Yes I have heard that before that it wasn't really Samuel. Great point.

When I heard that people would think it was the real Samuel I wondered Hmmmm so you are telling me a witch is more powerful than God and can pluck those who are with Him away to materialize in the physical world... always sounded silly.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I am not trying to stir anything up, not my intention, I was making a statement. Everyone else got off topic pages ago. Everyone should leave well alone now, agreed.

I don't mind if we get off topic. Singing the same old song gets boring after a while, and changing the tune breathes new life into the thread. The most interesting and fun men's Bible studies I have been involved with are those where the discussions go right off topic and deal with all sorts of the related issues. Sometimes the hour and a half goes by and we never finish the topic we started with, but we had a great time and learned a lot.

 

[lamb7]

Just had a thought...

Do we really need a personal "seers" if we now have The Holy Spirit to guide us? We have God dwelling in us what is better than that!?

Before in times past the Holy Spirit seemed to not dwell permanently in us until Acts. (I understand future events that the 2 witnesses etc will be around to guide but that is a specific purpose and time in the future)

I remember when my mom would tell me stories about going to church and this particular person would always come to her saying God told me to tell you, her response? " I have a relationship with Jesus, and if He needs to tell me something He will." That always stuck with me.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I want to say that people need a thick skin to post and debate on these forums. If you are going to give it, you need to take it as well. I have fun debating with those who disagree with me, and some comments can get pretty personal. I have been accusing of being the "professor" on the forum because I happen to have a College degree, and have had my theology taken to the cleaners, implying that I am deceived, etc, etc, but what of it? I just come back at them with more information for them to chew over. I never try to vindicate myself, because once I try to do that it weakens my position. I have conceded defeat only once to Simon Templer when he, after several weeks, proved that I was wrong and he was right. But I did take exception to be told I was of the devil because that is against the flaming rule and I took appropriate reporting action. I was also accused of being a drunk needing to go to AA meetings. I found that also offensive and reported the post. But there are cessationists with whom I have had some serious debates with, and I would never report them because they are the ones that bring the threads alive for me. Life would be boring if we all agreed with each other.

If some are thin-skinned and take offense at any post that has a "you" statement in it, they would be better to sticking with the fellowship threads where there is no debating and everyone is kind, gentle and supportive of each other. But in a debating forum, people don't have to be kind, lovey-dovey, and gentle and we have to put on the armour, take up the sword and be ready to do battle.

 

[lamb7]

I want to say that people need a thick skin to post and debate on these forums. If you are going to give it, you need to take it as well. I have fun debating with those who disagree with me, and some comments can get pretty personal. I have been accusing of being the "professor" on the forum because I happen to have a College degree, and have had my theology taken to the cleaners, implying that I am deceived, etc, etc, but what of it? I just come back at them with more information for them to chew over. I never try to vindicate myself, because once I try to do that it weakens my position. I have conceded defeat only once to Simon Templer when he, after several weeks, proved that I was wrong and he was right. But I did take exception to be told I was of the devil because that is against the flaming rule and I took appropriate reporting action. I was also accused of being a drunk needing to go to AA meetings. I found that also offensive and reported the post. But there are cessationists with whom I have had some serious debates with, and I would never report them because they are the ones that bring the threads alive for me. Life would be boring if we all agreed with each other.

If some are thin-skinned and take offense at any post that has a "you" statement in it, they would be better to sticking with the fellowship threads where there is no debating and everyone is kind, gentle and supportive of each other. But in a debating forum, people don't have to be kind, lovey-dovey, and gentle and we have to put on the armour, take up the sword and be ready to do battle.

People should not call you the devil, or drunk etc.... that is just not nice. I understand your post though, thank you!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Just had a thought...

Do we really need a personal "seers" if we now have The Holy Spirit to guide us? We have God dwelling in us what is better than that!?

Before in times past the Holy Spirit seemed to not dwell permanently in us until Acts. (I understand future events that the 2 witnesses etc will be around to guide but that is a specific purpose and time in the future)

I remember when my mom would tell me stories about going to church and this particular person would always come to her saying God told me to tell you, her response? " I have a relationship with Jesus, and if He needs to tell me something He will." That always stuck with me.

Being a "seer" doesn't necessarily violate the true ministry of the Holy Spirit if the function draws people closer to Christ. It is usually a combination of the gifts of Prophecy, Word of Knowledge, Word of Wisdom and Discerning of Spirits.

I would say the same to anyone I didn't view as a mentor approached me with a "word from God for you", especially if it wasn't a confirmation of what the Holy Spirit had already shown me. Anyone who is a mentor for me will come to me and say, "May I have a word with you?" They will never say "God has told me..." etc. We must always be careful that we are not opening ourselves to a spirit of divination to attack us through someone who has appointed themselves as a prophet or "seer". Usually, the function of a "seer" if connected with intercessory prayer, where the "seer" sees things that give him or her ammunition for intercessory prayer. If what has been "seen" needs to be shared with the person involved, the "seer" needs to seek God for a Word of Wisdom to share it appropriately, preventing it from coming out like some type of accusation "stamped" with the supposed "authority" of God.