Discussion: Prophetic Seers?

[Emli]

From your description it is evident that this has weakened your faith and has caused confusion, stress and depression. There is no love, joy, peace, kindness, or gentleness in what you received. On that basis I am certain that the word you got from this person is not in harmony with Scripture and therefore could not have come from the Holy Spirit.

My advice to you is to reject the prophecy in the Name of Jesus and bind any "virus" in the form of a spirit of divination that might accompany that prophecy. You don't have to say this to the person giving the prophecy. You get before God and say it to him and tell the devil that you are born of God and no spirit of divination can come anywhere near you.

Thank you very much. I've already broken a soul tie, because another person told me that this "seer" creates spiritual links with people, and I have broken a curse of confusion that came from this encounter. I felt like someone had been doing sorcery on me, so I prayed against it. I also started "seeing" things myself afterwards, like images of other people, and I felt myself "wishing" things on them. It was very creepy and it felt like sorcery. I broke that as well, and it went away.

 

[Denadii]

But I'm openly saying on this thread that I'm an interpreter of dreams, so you would need to differentiate a little more clearly. Openly attesting can be misconstrued for "bragging" quite easily, especially by Cessationsists and/or denominationalists who downplay the gifts and relegate them to relative insignificance. I know because I've personally been accused of "bragging" before on the subject when I was simply trying to have an honest discussion about it.

An interpreter of dreams is not necessarily a prophet or a seer...but an interpreter of dreams....If people need and interpreter God provides for that need.

 

[Emli]

Now this one here gets to the very heart of what Oscarr and I have debated over. I'm not convinced that all believers can trust themselves to never need outside correction, or to always welcome it when they receive a rebuke. In fact, I find the opposite to usually be true. I find most believers resent the daylights out of it, LoL.

I actually love the Lord's discipline. I pray for it. It feels great, even though my flesh hates it. Because I know it will make me much more like Lord Jesus. Do I always obey? Well... My flesh doesn't. But that's why I keep praying for Him to MOVE! In any way possible, the sins will have to go away! So what of it smarts a little? We're working for eternity, and why wouldn't I want to be as prepared as possible to do His work? There should be no room for error in us, and God could get us there if we let Him!

I don't need anyone else for that, when I've got the Holy Spirit.

But I will give you this. When someone speaks a word that is NOT well received it is time for the prophet to back off. Hammering away at someone is a sure sign of holding resentment. Does this person still bother you?

No, she stopped talking to me as soon as I told her to prove to me that she knows Scripture. I don't think she will approach me again, because she knows I'll see right through her.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Now, keep in mind I'm new to the whole gift thing. I'm just now learning about mine. But this is what I'm thinking:

If a gift could ever be used to hurt someone, or put a stumbling block before someone, then it's not of God.

Because it's the Holy Spirit that works in a person to minister to someone else, and God cannot sin, nor go against His Word.

So if someone claims to operate in a gift and fails, then that gift is not of God.

???

There is a difference between something expressly stated in Scripture and something in harmony with Scripture although not expressly stated. Both are correct. Jesus did and said many things that had no precedence in the Jewish Scriptures, yet we know that He was of God because He acted in harmony with the Jewish Scriptures. Teaching holiness, repentance, loving God and your neighbor, feeding 5000 hungry people, saving His disciples in a storm, healing sick folk and casting out demons was all in harmony with Scripture although not always in accordance with any previous Scriptural reference.

Also, you said that God rebukes you so that you don't need anyone else to do it for Him. Just as long as you know that God is the kindest, most gentle Person you will ever meet. If the rebuke is not kind and gentle, then you should question it. I had an elder of my church give me a list of criticisms once that sounded feasible. But when I went to God and asked whether they were of Him, He answered, "Nope!" And that was that!

 

[Hidden In Him]

An interpreter of dreams is not necessarily a prophet or a seer...but an interpreter of dreams....If people need and interpreter God provides for that need.

I can agree with that. Others argue that believers should interpret their own dreams, but I've found that unfortunately a very high percentage of believers are completely at a loss to understand even the simplest Biblical symbolism.

As for how interpretation relates to prophecy, I think they're fairly closely related. The vast majority of dreams I interpret are prophetic, but then maybe that has something to do with me in particular, I'm not sure.

 

[Emli]

There is a difference between something expressly stated in Scripture and something in harmony with Scripture although not expressly stated. Both are correct. Jesus did and said many things that had no precedence in the Jewish Scriptures, yet we know that He was of God because He acted in harmony with the Jewish Scriptures. Teaching holiness, repentance, loving God and your neighbor, feeding 5000 hungry people, saving His disciples in a storm, healing sick folk and casting out demons was all in harmony with Scripture although not always in accordance with any previous Scriptural reference.

I agree. Jesus was definitely the same as YHWH in nature. I see no difference when I compare OT and NT. And in the same way should we see no difference between the Word and what's happening today in the Church. Is that somewhat what you are saying? I have heard God telling me things that are in no way in Scripture, but then He has given me verses that confirm it, just not word for word.

Also, you said that God rebukes you so that you don't need anyone else to do it for Him. Just as long as you know that God is the kindest, most gentle Person you will ever meet. If the rebuke is not kind and gentle, then you should question it. I had an elder of my church give me a list of criticisms once that sounded feasible. But when I went to God and asked whether they were of Him, He answered, "Nope!" And that was that!

Trust me, when the Lord rebukes me, it's in the softest and most loving ways. I've never experienced anything like it. It's so righteous and it's so true, and it's hurtful in a way, yet it just feels like love. I was expecting hail and brimstone when I was saved, but all I got was patience and love, mercy and grace. And I used to be a SINNER... Only the true God could do that. I used to be so self-destructive, having so much self-condemnation, I wanted punishment. But even when I've been at my worst, and I've screamed at God "don't you know what I've done??? You should punish me and send me to Hell!!!" All He did was to love me so much I stopped thinking in those patterns.

That's when I know when the Lord is moving or not. Because it's not in His nature to punish those who love Him. He took it upon Himself instead.

He is now moving me to tears. Just thought I'd let you know.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Also, you said that God rebukes you so that you don't need anyone else to do it for Him. Just as long as you know that God is the kindest, most gentle Person you will ever meet.

In general I would agree with this Oscarr, but you have to account for both the kindness AND severity of God. He will not endure unrighteousness forever. The judgments of God are prophesied to return to the church, and when they do there will be many who fall away for not taking Hebrews 12:5-11 seriously and assuming that the way things have been will be the way they stay forever. We are approaching the time when Revelation 3:19 will be fulfilled again, and His gentleness will of necessity be replaced by His severity in those who are still walking in sin. So all would do well to check themselves to see if they are truly prepared to handle the chastisements of God if necessary.

Of course, I'm including myself in this as well, so it's not as if I'm exempting myself or placing myself above anyone else.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

In general I would agree with this Oscarr, but you have to account for both the kindness AND severity of God. He will not endure unrighteousness forever. The judgments of God are prophesied to return to the church, and when they do there will be many who fall away for not taking Hebrews 12:5-11 seriously and assuming that the way things have been will be the way they stay forever. We are approaching the time when Revelation 3:19 will be fulfilled again, and His gentleness will of necessity be replaced by His severity in those who are still walking in sin. So all would do well to check themselves to see if they are truly prepared to handle the chastisements of God if necessary.

Of course, I'm including myself in this as well, so it's not as if I'm placing myself above anyone else, or exempting myself.

The severity of God does not apply to born of God believers. It was the goodness of God that led them to repentance, and God will always deal with believers in terms of His faithfulness to them and His patience with them. Even when God is correcting us we still sense love, joy, peace, even though the correction may hurt our pride at times.

This because all the anger and wrath of God was put on Jesus to the extent that He has no anger left for believers. But there will be a day coming when those who reject Jesus will feel the full extent of His wrath.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Thank you very much. I've already broken a soul tie, because another person told me that this "seer" creates spiritual links with people, and I have broken a curse of confusion that came from this encounter. I felt like someone had been doing sorcery on me, so I prayed against it. I also started "seeing" things myself afterwards, like images of other people, and I felt myself "wishing" things on them. It was very creepy and it felt like sorcery. I broke that as well, and it went away.

Sounds like you were exposed to a divination spirit "virus". You did right by binding it. I heard a preacher once describing a vision that he saw when he bound a demon. He said that as soon as he bound it, in his vision he saw two very large angels come, bind up that demon with chains and whisk it out of sight! That was God showing him what actually happens in the spirit world when he binds a demon in Jesus' Name!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

An interpreter of dreams is not necessarily a prophet or a seer...but an interpreter of dreams....If people need and interpreter God provides for that need.

I have some pretty crazy dreams at times, but I would never try and interpret them!

How would you like to interpret this one? A light plane landed in a field. I went to take off with the pilot and he took off backwards because there was no room in front or at the sides to take off normally. Isn't it interesting to see live on Facebook last night of a light plane that landed on a baseball field and landed in one piece and the pilot walked away!

I have had other dreams when I was a substitute teacher in a school and couldn't find the classroom in which to teach and went looking for a general school timetable and couldn't find one, and then I saw people that I knew were in the class and went there. (I was a school teacher for 19 years until 2004)

Or the other one where I was trying to find a public toilet but all the ones either had no doors or walls and therefore no privacy. I actually don't like public toilets very much and get instant constipation if the toilet door doesn't have a lock on it.

And the other one where I was driving my car and the brakes wouldn't work and I was careering down the road afraid I was going to hit something.

I have had a couple of dreams where I have been preaching in church and the congregation have walked out on me.

The last three teaching jobs I had in elementary schools were with very difficult classes with some noisy disobedient students in them. I remember dreaming about teaching a class where all the students were pleasant and obedient. I woke up disappointed and thought it would have been great if it had have been true.

As you can see, I can have some crazy dreams at times.

I did have one where I woke up (in the dream) in my own bed, went out of the bedroom to the top of the stairs, sensed a dark entity coming up, and told it in a loud voice to go in the Name of Jesus! Then I woke up back in my own bed!

Or the other one where I was careering toward the edge of a cliff, and as I went over I cried out to the Lord, "Here I come!" Then I woke up, and any fear of death left me.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The severity of God does not apply to born of God believers.

We are in very strong disagreement here.

Even when God is correcting us we still sense love, joy, peace, even though the correction may hurt our pride at times.

This part is correct. His judgments will indeed be carried out in love, being meant for our good. But I'm not talking about mere verbal corrections. I'm talking about the judgments of God being executed upon those who do not repent, as discussed in 1 Corinthians 5:5 (for example).

Are you familiar with Rick Joyner?

 

[Hidden In Him]

I have some pretty crazy dreams at times, but I would never try and interpret them!

The crazier they are is usually the more authority they have, though harder to interpret.

 

[Denadii]

I have some pretty crazy dreams at times, but I would never try and interpret them!

LOL I get some really interesting dreams too at times...I cannot interpret them without asking God what they mean...Usually pretty heavy stuff.

 

[Emli]

Sounds like you were exposed to a divination spirit "virus". You did right by binding it. I heard a preacher once describing a vision that he saw when he bound a demon. He said that as soon as he bound it, in his vision he saw two very large angels come, bind up that demon with chains and whisk it out of sight! That was God showing him what actually happens in the spirit world when he binds a demon in Jesus' Name!

That was definitely what happened. Not the first time I had to do that too...

I've actually felt the angels remove evil spirits, and I once saw a vision of angels sending demons into rifts, to the dry places maybe?

I also talked to them. Don't worry, I made them confess that Jesus was their Lord and Master. They actually told me I had to make them confess that, or I would be breaking God's commandment to test all spirits, so they weren't offended... Believe me or don't believe me. I prayed earnestly for it, because I wanted discernment while I was doing self-deliverance last year. Couldn't believe it myself for a long time... They told me how to cast out evil spirits.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

We are in very strong disagreement here.


This part is correct. His judgments will indeed be carried out in love, being meant for our good. But I'm not talking about mere verbal corrections. I'm talking about the judgments of God being executed upon those who do not repent, as discussed in 1 Corinthians 5:5 (for example).

Are you familiar with Rick Joyner?

That is an interesting reference. If I had been there I would have asked him what he meant by it. When I get home I will see what Gordon Fee says about it in his commentary.

I have a book by Rick and find it quite interesting.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

LOL I get some really interesting dreams too at times...I cannot interpret them without asking God what they mean...Usually pretty heavy stuff.

I think that if a dream comes from God to let us know something definite from Him, then it might not need interpreting because the message would be fairly plain as it was when Joseph the husband of Mary received his dreams concerning Mary's pregnancy and the warning to flee to Egypt. He didn't have to guess the interpretation, because the message was absolutely plain to him in the dream.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I think that if a dream comes from God to let us know something definite from Him, then it might not need interpreting because the message would be fairly plain as it was when Joseph the husband of Mary received his dreams concerning Mary's pregnancy and the warning to flee to Egypt. He didn't have to guess the interpretation, because the message was absolutely plain to him in the dream.

Good heavens has that not been my experience, LoL. By His grace some dreams and visions are blatantly simple, such as in Acts 10:11-13. But I'd say about 90% are far more like the one given to Nebuchaddnezar in Daniel 4:10-17; vague and obscure (though I must say a piece of cake compared to some of the stuff I've had to interpret, LoL).

I'm not so sure what the content of Joseph's dream was actually. I think it only stated that he understood the meaning; that he needed to go to Egypt, correct? Or maybe I'm wrong. I'll have to look it up.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I'm not so sure what the content of Joseph's dream was actually. I think it only stated that he understood the meaning; that he needed to go to Egypt, correct? Or maybe I'm wrong. I'll have to look it up.

No. You're right. An angel appeared in the dream and spoke it to him.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Good heavens has that not been my experience, LoL. By His grace some dreams and visions are blatantly simple, such as in Acts 10:11-13. But I'd say about 90% are far more like the one given to Nebuchaddnezar in Daniel 4:10-17; vague and obscure (though I must say a piece of cake compared to some of the stuff I've had to interpret, LoL).

I'm not so sure what the content of Joseph's dream was actually. I think it only stated that he understood the meaning; that he needed to go to Egypt, correct? Or maybe I'm wrong. I'll have to look it up.

The dream that Nebuchadnezzar had was for a particular purpose, to take him through a set of circumstances to end up with him acknowledging the true and living God. It was basically a one-off. Daniel did not have a regular ministry of interpreting dreams.

Joseph's dream about the sheaves of wheat falling down before his one and the stars of heaven giving homage to his star was prophetic to indicate God's plan for his future. He would not have known how that was going to be fulfilled, even less when he was sold into slavery, put into prison on a false sexual harassment charge and then forgotten about for years until Pharaoh had his dream which was uninterpretable except by Joseph who was given the special revelation of it in order to secure his promotion in Egypt. The reason for that was to save his family from perishing in the seven years of famine. If they did perish, we wouldn't have had an Israel. So these events are not the normal events that were common among ordinary people. Joseph's brothers interpreted Joseph's original dream for themselves and they didn't like it and they plotted to get rid of the "little upstart".

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I'm talking about the judgments of God being executed upon those who do not repent, as discussed in 1 Corinthians 5:5 (for example).

I had a good read in Gordon Fee's commentary on the verse and I agree with him, that Paul did not intend for the church to take his words literally. What Paul intends is for the man to be separated from the Christian community with its life in the Spirit and to be put out into Satan's domain, not for Satan to actually destroy him, but to encourage the man to repentance when he realises what he is missing by not being in the protective environment of the Church. Paul's view of the destruction of the flesh is not death at the hands of Satan, because this would not be in harmony with his theology. He views the destruction of the flesh in the same way as believers "crucifying the flesh". That expression does not mean that we nail ourselves to a cross to be holy, but that we deem ourselves dead to the world, but alive to Christ. Of course there is suffering involved in being separated from the life and fellowship of the Church but Paul's intention is that the man is restored to Christ by repentance and "sinning no more".

Fee brings out the difficulties in today's churches where a sinning believer can be disciplined and all he has to do is go down the road to another church. He has concerns about a church that would accept a person who is under serious discipline in another church, but that is the state of our divided modern church.

It seems that the verse, rather than involving direct punishment, it involves separating him from the good things of God in the Church so he starts to see what he is missing and the difficulties of trying to continue living in Satan's domain without the support of the local fellowship of believers. This is no excommunication which has a permanence about it, but is a measure of discipline with a readiness to accept the guy back when he repents.