Discussion: Prophetic Seers?

[Emli]

I had a good read in Gordon Fee's commentary on the verse and I agree with him, that Paul did not intend for the church to take his words literally. What Paul intends is for the man to be separated from the Christian community with its life in the Spirit and to be put out into Satan's domain, not for Satan to actually destroy him but to encourage the man to repentance when he realises what he is missing by not being in the protective environment of the Church. Paul's view of the destruction of the flesh is not death at the hands of Satan, because this wold not be in harmony with his theology. He views the destruction of the flesh in the same way as believers "crucifying the flesh". That expression does not mean that we nail ourselves to a cross to be holy, but that we deem ourselves dead to the world, but alive to Christ. Of course there is suffering involved in being separated from the life and fellowship of the Church but Paul's intention is that the man is restored to Christ by repentance and "sinning no more".

Fee brings out the difficulties in today's churches where a sinning believer can be disciplined and all he has to do is go down the road to another church. He has concerns about a church that would accept a person who is under serious discipline in another church, but that is the state of our divided modern church.

It seems that the verse, rather than involving direct punishment, it involves separating him from the good things of God in the Church so he starts to see what he is missing and the difficulties of trying to continue living in Satan's domain without the support of the local fellowship of believers. This is no excommunication which has a permanence about it, but is a measure of discipline with a readiness to accept the guy back when he repents.

As in Matthew 18:17?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

As in Matthew 18:17?

Yes. Both references are in harmony with each other.

 

[Emli]

I just wanted to say thank you for this conversation tonight. It helped me work out a lot of issues, and set me on the right path. I've been a mess lately, but the Lord has been so good to me. And this helped me overcome a lot of stress and confusion.

May the Lord bless all of you, and especially you, Oscarr!

 

[Hidden In Him]

I had a good read in Gordon Fee's commentary on the verse and I agree with him, that Paul did not intend for the church to take his words literally. What Paul intends is for the man to be separated from the Christian community with its life in the Spirit and to be put out into Satan's domain, not for Satan to actually destroy him, but to encourage the man to repentance when he realises what he is missing by not being in the protective environment of the Church. Paul's view of the destruction of the flesh is not death at the hands of Satan, because this would not be in harmony with his theology. He views the destruction of the flesh in the same way as believers "crucifying the flesh". That expression does not mean that we nail ourselves to a cross to be holy, but that we deem ourselves dead to the world, but alive to Christ. Of course there is suffering involved in being separated from the life and fellowship of the Church but Paul's intention is that the man is restored to Christ by repentance and "sinning no more".

LoL. This is modern scholarship explaining away the scriptures on the basis that it doesn't harmonize with the rest of New Testament "theology" when the only thing it actually doesn't harmonize with is their own presumptuous and flawed assumptions, LoL.

I'm sure you'll balk at my questioning the likes of Gordon Fee, but in all honesty I own a library full of modern scholarship and I'm rarely if ever impressed with them when it comes to matters like this. It's supposition upon supposition, giving the truth no room to breathe.

But to each his own. Read Rick Joyner if you get the chance. He occasionally misses it as well, but his theology is head and shoulders better than the likes of the esteemed Gordon Fee.

God bless, and good discussion.
Hidden

 

[RaymondG]

Of course, but the things she said weren't rebukes, they were accusations. Fiery darts. And things that were the opposite of what God was telling me. I've asked the Lord to be hard on me. He rebukes me instantly. No other person needs to do that for me.

I'll give an example.

What the Lord has told me: I listen too much to other people, out of fear of man, and I have been learning falsehood. God has rebuked me for it for months, because it's very destructive, telling me 1 John 2:27. The "seer" told me I needed to listen to her, because she's older and more experienced, (yet she barely knew Scripture or had any type of spiritual understanding when I tested her), and I guess she was insulted when I said I didn't wish to, and I quote her response "You're sooooooooooo self-sufficient... Don't wanna listen to anyone!!!"

Not of God! He intervened at that moment. And then He has been telling me "Don't believe in everything you hear!" many times.

There are people who prey on the weak, to gain spiritual authority, and she is definitely one of them.

This seems to be a common theme.....yet you feel that anyone who disagrees with you are trying to hurt you or are of the devil in some way.

I too agree that you cannot be told anything because you know everything already (at least not be told by someone whose knowledge you dont respect).

You try to prove things by seeing if someone else knows the bible as well as you do.....but you dont see that it is your interpretation of the bible that you are comparing, and if someone else has a different interpretation, you say that they need to study more and pray more because YOU have to be right. YET, some of the apostles were viewed as ignorant and unlearned men....so comparing knowledge is not the best gauge.....especially since the knowledge is subjective.

If you are wrong and someone says it....it will not feel good, period. It is a strange notion to expect feelings of joy and happiness every time a message is from God. Im not sure that Jonahs message, "change or die" inspired feelings of joy and happiness.......people ripped their clothes and sat in ashes.

A lot of what you say doesnt add up. But it is ok to believe that everyone who says this is trying to hurt you in some way or is of the devil......or need to study more......or is deceived..... or need your prayers......the list goes on and on.

 

[RaymondG]

A person may "miss" it concerning some of the details in the prophecy, but this doesn't mean that it is false, as long as it has the characteristics and the impact that I have described.

I was involved in another thread inwhich you stated that a prophet was a false prophet because one detail of a prophesy to Saul was incorrect. Most of it was correct but you stated that they said he was going to be killed, yet he committed suicide. And because of this detail, you stated that they were now a false prophet. Have you since backed off from this idea?

I will not quote...if you dont remember, fine...we can move on.

 

[lamb7]

What do you guys think of this verse?

I always was shocked that this spirit was speaking truth... but yet Paul saw through this and released the girl of the divination spirit. This verse always gets me thinking.... Thoughts?


Acts 16:16-40King James Version (KJV)
16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:

17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.

18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,

20 And brought them to the magistrates, saying, These men, being Jews, do exceedingly trouble our city,

21 And teach customs, which are not lawful for us to receive, neither to observe, being Romans.

22 And the multitude rose up together against them: and the magistrates rent off their clothes, and commanded to beat them.

 

[lamb7]

Lets not forget Baalam too! God used him to speak for Him....

Who was Balaam in the Bible?

 

[Emli]

What do you guys think of this verse?

I always was shocked that this spirit was speaking truth... but yet Paul saw through this and released the girl of the divination spirit. This verse always gets me thinking.... Thoughts?


Acts 16:16-40King James Version (KJV)
16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:

17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.

18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,

20 And brought them to the magistrates, saying, These men, being Jews, do exceedingly trouble our city,

21 And teach customs, which are not lawful for us to receive, neither to observe, being Romans.

22 And the multitude rose up together against them: and the magistrates rent off their clothes, and commanded to beat them.

These verses explain what I believe God wanted us to know about how Satan infiltrates the Church through those spirits of divination. As in 2 Corinthians 11:14-15.

 

[RaymondG]

What do you guys think of this verse?

I always was shocked that this spirit was speaking truth... but yet Paul saw through this and released the girl of the divination spirit. This verse always gets me thinking.... Thoughts?


Acts 16:16-40King James Version (KJV)
16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:

17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.

18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,

20 And brought them to the magistrates, saying, These men, being Jews, do exceedingly trouble our city,

21 And teach customs, which are not lawful for us to receive, neither to observe, being Romans.

22 And the multitude rose up together against them: and the magistrates rent off their clothes, and commanded to beat them.

I was wondering about this today as well. What was wrong with her speaking the truth? Or Maybe they knew before hand that she was soothsayer.....But still why get upset?

But I just noticed that in the verse before... it appears that this woman was speaking out of turn.....As they entered into prayer this woman started yelling these things out. God's work is decent and in order....This seems to have been out of order and maybe Paul was grieved that the prayer was interrupted and that they were being followed daily with the same interruptions.

Now that i think more about it...it could get really annoying being followed for days by a stranger yelling things out......even if they are positive things....

 

[lamb7]

I was wondering about this today as well. What was wrong with her speaking the truth? Or Maybe they knew before hand that she was soothsayer.....But still why get upset?

But I just noticed that in the verse before... it appears that this woman was speaking out of turn.....As they entered into prayer this woman started yelling these things out. God's work is decent and in order....This seems to have been out of order and maybe Paul was grieved that the prayer was interrupted and that they were being followed daily with the same interruptions.

Now that i think more about it...it could get really annoying being followed for days by a stranger yelling things out......even if they are positive things....

I never thought of that before, yes and God is a God of order not chaos and confusion. God would not interrupt prayer.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I was involved in another thread inwhich you stated that a prophet was a false prophet because one detail of a prophesy to Saul was incorrect. Most of it was correct but you stated that they said he was going to be killed, yet he committed suicide. And because of this detail, you stated that they were now a false prophet. Have you since backed off from this idea?

I will not quote...if you dont remember, fine...we can move on.

I suppose you read my statement and the Scriptural reference that I referred to. I don't remember labelling anyone a false prophet in that context. This was a event where Saul went and consulted with the Witch of Endor, to raise Samuel from the dead to get advice from him about a battle Saul was to fight. The witch brought Samuel back from the dead, who told Saul that he would be killed.

My view was that no one comes back from the dead like that, and any entity a witch brings up has to be an impersonating demon, so it was not Samuel himself who spoke to Saul but a demon. There was no Old Testament prophet involved. So it was not a prophecy as such. The error in the demon's statement was that Saul was going to be killed, presumably by his enemies. In fact, Saul committed suicide when he saw that he was defeated and did not want to be finished off by the Philistines.

I used this event to show how that New Testament prophecy needs to be recorded either digitally or written down so it can be carefully examined to see if it in harmony with God's Word, and if there is any prediction of the future, that it comes to pass exactly the way it was predicted to determine whether the prophecy was true or not. Old Testament prophets had to be dead accurate because they used the term "Thus says the Lord." And if they purported to be giving the Word of God, and their prophecies were encouraging folk to live lawless lives and go after other gods, then that is what made them false.

A New Testament prophet is quite different. Because we have the written Scriptures, and the indwelling Holy Spirit which the Old Testament prophets did not have, prophecy is now for the comfort, encouragement and exhortation of believers, and those prophecies are carefully examined to ensure that they are in harmony with God's Word. A person who gets up in a service and gives a long, loud, KJV language prophecy, and it is not recorded, then it is forgotten by the next hymn. Such prophecies should be ignored because no opportunity for careful examination has been given.

I tend to ignore the prophecies of self-advertising "Prophets for the Nation". The only message for the "nation" is to "repent and be baptised in the Name of Jesus, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Any prophecies outside of that are not reliable. Prophecies for believers are God's "love letters" to His saints, to comfort, encourage, and exhort them to come closer to Christ and to strengthen their faith in Him. Prophecies that don't glorify Christ and encourage unbelievers to get saved, and believers to become more Christ-like, have to be questioned.

So, a "false prophet" is one who uses prophecy to draw people away from Christ and onto other gods, or distractions that pull them off the path of God's will for their lives; and the will of God is, "That we should believe on the One who God has sent."

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

What do you guys think of this verse?

I always was shocked that this spirit was speaking truth... but yet Paul saw through this and released the girl of the divination spirit. This verse always gets me thinking.... Thoughts?


Acts 16:16-40King James Version (KJV)
16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:

17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.

18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,

20 And brought them to the magistrates, saying, These men, being Jews, do exceedingly trouble our city,

21 And teach customs, which are not lawful for us to receive, neither to observe, being Romans.

22 And the multitude rose up together against them: and the magistrates rent off their clothes, and commanded to beat them.

The statement might have had a ring of truth about it, but it was advertising the men rather than glorifying Christ. She was pointing to Paul and his team, rather than to Christ.

Isn't that familiar? Who is being glorified when we watch TV preachers doing all sorts of antics and employing gimmicks to convince the people that they have something special that others haven't? I have seen churches with big advertising billboard with large pictures of the pastor and his wife, but nothing about Jesus. "Come to our church, enjoy the happy services, listen to the cutting edge message from our pastor!" What and who is that advertising? Who do we think of when we see a TV preacher in a white suit waving his hands and groups of people fall over? Christ, or the preacher? Isn't the Holy Spirit here to glorify Jesus? Is hero worship of big name preachers glorifying Jesus? I answer, "Nope!"
So that's what the spirit of divination was doing - glorifying the preachers and not the Christ they were preaching.

 

[RaymondG]

So that's what the spirit of divination was doing - glorifying the preachers and not the Christ they were preaching.

Interesting. So If I were to tell you or these other posters that I believe you are a prophet of God and that you are showing the way to salvation.....you feel that this statement would be glorifying you and not God? You feel that I should not make this assertion or i may be possesses with an evil spirit?

 

[RaymondG]

So, a "false prophet" is one who uses prophecy to draw people away from Christ and onto other gods, or distractions that pull them off the path of God's will for their lives; and the will of God is, "That we should believe on the One who God has sent."

I think I understand what you are saying.....about the previous thread.....you feel the whole prophesy was false because a portion of it was......but it is possible now...for a true prophet to give a prophesy now that is not 100% accurate.

For what i quoted above do you have a short example of a prophesy that a "christian" false prophet can give that would lead one away from Christ? So we can better recognize one. I say "Christian" to rule out outrageous things like...winning lotto, or starting yoga classes etc..

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I think I understand what you are saying.....about the previous thread.....you feel the whole prophesy was false because a portion of it was......but it is possible now...for a true prophet to give a prophesy now that is not 100% accurate.

For what i quoted above do you have a short example of a prophesy that a "christian" false prophet can give that would lead one away from Christ? So we can better recognize one. I say "Christian" to rule out outrageous things like...winning lotto, or starting yoga classes etc..

Here is an example of something you might warm to. The community organisation I work for as my retirement income is having a funding crisis at the moment. In the early hours of this morning, when I couldn't sleep I was praying about some issues and I started to discuss the funding issue with the Lord. It felt right to me to ask God directly for $150,000 to get us over the funding crisis. So I went through the three steps of faith that I use to do that. I discussed about whether it was His will or not, because if I expect anything from the Lord I have to know that I am asking for something in His will. I told Him that I believed that it was His will to help us because our organisation is assisting families in poverty and if we had to close down, at least 300 families would suffer immensely. We run a total money management budgeting service for these people to get them out of extreme debt, stop evictions, and repossessions, and court action against them. So I felt that asking for the funds was in harmony with God's Word, and therefore was confident that it was His will to ask for the money.

Then I took the next step was to ask directly for the money, so I prayed, "Lord we need $150,000 to get us over our funding crisis and now I ask you specifically for it." The Scripture says, "If you ask anything in My will you will receive it." and, "You have not because you ask not" and "Everything by prayer and supplication make your requests known to God". So, I knew that I was doing the right thing by asking for it.

Then I took the next step, going on the Scripture, "Who who asks, receives." So, I said to the Lord, "I now receive that $150,000 from you. Then I said to the Lord, "Well, I have taken the three steps of faith in obedience to Your Word, and I leave the outcome to you."

I did not "command" the Lord, and I did not assume that I have already received it, "by faith". That would be presumption because I have not actually received the money in my hand yet. The receiving I did was an act of faith and obedience between the Lord and me, and not a presumption that He is a vending machine who will automatically say, "Here you are." This is because I don't know every aspect of God's will for our organisation.

The interesting part is that on my way home from the gym today, I thought about the prayer that I had prayed the previous night, and the thought came - "Should I praise God in advance for the money?" which is basic Word of Faith doctrine. But I decided not to and told the Lord that to do that would be presumption and not faith on my part. I had already taken the steps of faith and it was now up to Him to decide or decide not to advance the money. I would rather praise God when or if He provided the money through whatever means He decides. It is more appropriate to praise God after the event than to try and use praise to "prod" God into doing what we want.

You might find that approach interesting. Maybe some WOF folks might accuse me of unbelief because I will not assume that the money will definitely be provided just because I ask for it. The Lord has the sovereign right to say, "Yes", "No", or "Wait".

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

LoL. This is modern scholarship explaining away the scriptures on the basis that it doesn't harmonize with the rest of New Testament "theology" when the only thing it actually doesn't harmonize with is their own presumptuous and flawed assumptions, LoL.

I'm sure you'll balk at my questioning the likes of Gordon Fee, but in all honesty I own a library full of modern scholarship and I'm rarely if ever impressed with them when it comes to matters like this. It's supposition upon supposition, giving the truth no room to breathe.

But to each his own. Read Rick Joyner if you get the chance. He occasionally misses it as well, but his theology is head and shoulders better than the likes of the esteemed Gordon Fee.

God bless, and good discussion.
Hidden

You almost had me there with the modern scholarship angle!
So, I went and got my copy of John Calvin's commentary on 1 Corinthians 5:5. And, whooptedoo! He agrees with Gordon Fee! How about that? Calvin says that Paul is meaning that the offender should be put out of the church back into Satan's domain as a temporary form of punishment but for the intention that the man is restored by repentance, turning from the sin and going on in a holy life. He says that it is necessary for the man to be put out of the church because a "little leaven leavens the whole lump", meaning that one little virus can multiply and affect the whole body. When I taught elementary school, one year there was just one disobedient boy in the class, because the school administration neglected to support me by withdrawing him from my class every time he disrupted it, by halfway through the year, most of the boys became disruptive, because they saw one boy getting away with it and so they thought they could be disobedient as well. That when I decided to give up school teaching (after 19 years) and go and work as a Victim Adviser with the local District Court. When I was at the court, a girl came to the public counter and started abusing the staff. The team leader immediately called down to the cells and two very nice but large police officers came up and carted the screaming and yelling girl away down to the cells. Everyone else at that public counter suddenly became very respectful to the staff! I told the team leader that i wished we had two similar police officers to take the disobedient boy away out of my class when I was teaching, and then I wouldn't have had any further trouble for that year!

The reason why we have so many excesses and wacky doctrines in our Charismatic churches these days is that leaderships are like the school administration that I had to cope with in my last year of school teaching. As the school administrators neglected to discipline the disruptive boy, so church leaderships don't clamp down and discipline those who bring the church is disrepute by "over the top", spooky spiritual manifestations, questionable prophecies, talking loudly in tongues without interpretation, preachers teaching questionable doctrines and getting up to antics that are inappropriate for decency and order. Also, like the OT priest Eli who neglected to discipline his sons when they had nookie with the young women who came to the Temple, and took excessive amounts of the food offerings, so church leaders neglect to deal with prominent preachers whose personal holiness lapse, leaving wives for mistresses, embezzling from the offerings, etc., until it is too late and it all comes out in the public arena, bringing shame and disgrace on the whole church. Paul did not want that to happen to the Corinthians, and that is why he advised to eject the man out of the church so that the pagan community around it knew that the Christian church were not going to put up with stuff that even they wouldn't get up to.

The sins of a few of the TV preachers, where the leaderships have neglected to discipline them in time, has brought the whole of the TV Evangelism ministry into disrepute, and good, godly, and honest TV Evangelists have suffered as a result of being tarred and feathered along with the bad ones.

 

[Heart2Soul]

This seems to be a common theme.....yet you feel that anyone who disagrees with you are trying to hurt you or are of the devil in some way.

I too agree that you cannot be told anything because you know everything already (at least not be told by someone whose knowledge you dont respect).

You try to prove things by seeing if someone else knows the bible as well as you do.....but you dont see that it is your interpretation of the bible that you are comparing, and if someone else has a different interpretation, you say that they need to study more and pray more because YOU have to be right. YET, some of the apostles were viewed as ignorant and unlearned men....so comparing knowledge is not the best gauge.....especially since the knowledge is subjective.

If you are wrong and someone says it....it will not feel good, period. It is a strange notion to expect feelings of joy and happiness every time a message is from God. Im not sure that Jonahs message, "change or die" inspired feelings of joy and happiness.......people ripped their clothes and sat in ashes.

A lot of what you say doesnt add up. But it is ok to believe that everyone who says this is trying to hurt you in some way or is of the devil......or need to study more......or is deceived..... or need your prayers......the list goes on and on.

You have definitely hit the nail on the head here.....good insight.

 

[lamb7]

You have definitely hit the nail on the head here.....good insight.

Let us be kind and gentle with the fellow sisters and brothers in Christ. We all mean well. Our fellow brethren are not our enemies. ♥

 

[Heart2Soul]

Let us be kind and gentle with the fellow sisters and brothers in Christ. We all mean well. Our fellow brethren are not our enemies. ♥

I am not being unkind.....I just agree with what he said about people getting their toes stepped on occasionally when the truth is spoken to them.