Discussion moved from "End Times Fiction" thread

[claninja]

The main reasons I can't agree with you that some of these things in Ezekiel 39 have already been fulfilled, where you then provided passages showing how they allegedly are, is because verse 29 in Ezkiel 39 can't get fulfilled until God has first executed judgment on Gog and his multitude. I simply do not believe God has executed judgment on Gog and his multitude as of yet. That in my mind places verse 29 still in the future because His judgment against Gog and his multitude is still in the future. If it wasn't for that major fact, I could maybe agree with you here. But no matter how I look at it though, even looking at it from your perspective, I still can't see how verse 29 in Ezekiel 39 can be fulfilled before God even executes judgment on Gog and his multitude.

Ezekiel 39 is not in chronological order. I would also argue some points of Ezekiel 39 take place at Christ's first coming and some at his 2nd coming, just like zechariah 12.

I'm assuming you noticed that verse 29 is at the end of the chapter, after that of the judgment of Gog and his multitude. So why would it be at the end of the chapter if the judgment of Gog and his multitude chronologically follows the fulfillment of verse 29?

Because visions from God don't always go in chronological order. For example Joel 2. Do you believe Joel 2 is in chronological order?

Joel 2:10,27 Before them the earth shakes, the heavens tremble, the sun and moon are darkened,
and the stars no longer shine. Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am the Lord your God,and that there is no other; never again will my people be shamed.

Joel 2:28 And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.

Acts 2:16-17 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: “ ‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.

When we attempt to interpret things, shouldn't we at least try and be logical about things so that we can hope to come to reasonable conclusions? Per what the text indicates in Ezekiel 39, how is it being logical though by concluding verse 29 can be fulfilled before God even executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude?

Logical interpretation of scripture does not always mean in chronological order. Sometimes prophecies are not in chronological order. We should always look to the NT/OT to find anchor points (fulfillment) for OT prophecy.

For example, Ezekiel 39:29 explicitly states God will pour out his spirit. When did God pour out his spirit? According to the book of Acts, at Pentecost. This is an anchor point (fulfillment). Are there other NT anchor points for God pouring out his spirit? This would help your case.

Another example Ezekiel 39:25, explicitly states that God would restore Jacob's fortune. When did God restore Jacob's fortune? According to psalm 85:1, when Israel came out of exile.

 

[keras]

Not a single scripture ever, even once, even hints at the idea that Judah, Ephraim, or the names of any of the ten other tribes of Israel refer to the church. But there are explicitly stated promises made to each of these.

Conversely, there is no scripture that says Ephraim or any of the other tribes of the House of Israel, become Jews, the House of Judah.
Not until the great rejoining of Ezekiel 37, which has not happened yet.

In Jesus' time , the Jews knew about the 10 Northern tribes scattered among the nations, as they are still. Proved by John 7:35, James 1:1 and by Josephus.
So the explicit Promises of God to the House of Israel, do not apply to Jewish Israel, but to the true Israelites of God, by descent or by faith, who are now every faithful Christian person. Galatians 3:26-29 and 6:14-16

We Christians will receive the Blessings that God has promised to His faithful people. Do the Jews deserve them? No; they will receive God's punishment, as many prophesies plainly state and only a remnant will survive. Romans 9:27

 

[Biblewriter]

What should we call you, when what you claim does not agree with the text found below?

..........................................................

Who was Peter addressing on the Day of Pentecost?

Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." (Who would all the house of Israel include?)
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
Act 2:40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
Act 2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.


Who was James addressing in his letter to his fellow believers?

Jas 1:1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings. (Who would the twelve tribes include?)
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,
Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.

.........................................................

Regardless of what you imagine. The scriptures you have quoted do not disprove anything I have said.

But I find it very interesting that, after (falsely) accusing me of calling you a liar, you imply that I am a liar.

 

[BABerean2]

Regardless of what you imagine. The scriptures you have quoted do not disprove anything I have said.

But I find it very interesting that, after (falsely) accusing me of calling you a liar, you imply that I am a liar.

I am not implying anything.

Everyone here is able to compare what you say, to what the scriptures say.

Biblewriter said: ↑

"Not a single scripture ever, even once, even hints at the idea that Judah, Ephraim, or the names of any of the ten other tribes of Israel refer to the church."



Who was Peter addressing on the Day of Pentecost?

Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." (Who would all the house of Israel include?)
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
Act 2:40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
Act 2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.


Who was James addressing in his letter to his fellow believers?

Jas 1:1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings. (Who would the twelve tribes include?)
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,
Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.


The question is, will you take responsibility when what you say does not agree with scripture?

.

 

[DavidPT]

Ezekiel 39 is not in chronological order. I would also argue some points of Ezekiel 39 take place at Christ's first coming and some at his 2nd coming, just like zechariah 12.

While that is true of the chapter itself, there is still chronology to follow. For example. In Ezekiel 39, verses 17-20 are mentioned after verses 9-12, yet, chronologically, verses 9-12 have to follow verses 17-20. IOW it is verses 17-20 which lead to what occurs during verses 9-12.

I would instead argue that none of Ezekiel 39 took place at around the time of Christ's first coming in the first century, but that some of it takes place right before His 2nd coming, and some of it takes places as of and after the 2nd coming.

Because visions from God don't always go in chronological order. For example Joel 2. Do you believe Joel 2 is in chronological order?

Joel 2:10,27 Before them the earth shakes, the heavens tremble, the sun and moon are darkened,
and the stars no longer shine. Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am the Lord your God,and that there is no other; never again will my people be shamed.

Joel 2:28 And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.

Acts 2:16-17 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: “ ‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.

The arguments I just used seem to apply here as well.

Logical interpretation of scripture does not always mean in chronological order. Sometimes prophecies are not in chronological order. We should always look to the NT/OT to find anchor points (fulfillment) for OT prophecy.

For example, Ezekiel 39:29 explicitly states God will pour out his spirit. When did God pour out his spirit? According to the book of Acts, at Pentecost. This is an anchor point (fulfillment). Are there other NT anchor points for God pouring out his spirit? This would help your case.

Another example Ezekiel 39:25, explicitly states that God would restore Jacob's fortune. When did God restore Jacob's fortune? According to psalm 85:1, when Israel came out of exile.

What about my argument using verse 7, in relation to verse 29? If He already poured His Spirit out on the house of Israel meant in Ezekiel 39, some 2000 years ago, and that verse 7 is connected with His 2nd coming, why would the text be saying---So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel?

Does the following chronology really make good sense? for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel(2000 years ago)----So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel(2000 or so years later).

How can that make good sense? He wouldn't need to make His holy name known in the midst of His people Israel meant in Ezekiel 39, 2000 years later if He had already 2000 years earlier poured out His Spirit upon this same Israel meant in Ezekiel 39.

IMO what makes better sense is the following. So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel---which then equals this---for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel. And the thing is, while you might try and divorce verse 29 from that of the judgment on Gog and his multitude, you can't get away with doing the same with verse 7 also, since that is clearly included in a context having to do with the judgment on Gog and his multitude.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

Jesus said: Take care that you be not deceived...…
This implies that some WILL be deceived, people who decide for themselves what they want God to do for them, instead of really finding out God's plans for our future.

A 'rapture to heaven' of the Church is never mentioned in the Bible, but many verses tell us how the Lord will protect His own through all that is prophesied to happen.

However, its plain that you and all who grip onto the 'rapture' theory, won't change your belief, no matter how many scriptural proofs of its false premise, that I present.
So the best I can advise, is that when disaster strikes, and be assured it will, Ezekiel 33:33, you must; Call upon the Name of the Lord and you will be saved. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

I haven't seen any scriptural "proofs" that the concept of the rapture is false in any way whatsoever.
The Church will not be here during the 7 year tribulation.
I am a child of God. I have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which helps me and guides within the Scriptures.
I am completely at peace with my belief regarding the Church being removed before the 7 year tribulation.
Once again as a reminder, the meeting the Lord in the clouds is completely separate from The Second Coming.
Christ will not have His Church go through the 7 year tribulation which is devine judgment on a world that has rejected Him and His Word which believers in Jesus Christ have not done , at the very least regarding salvation.
That is one of the main reasons for the 7 year tribulation .
Many will receive Christ as Saviour during that time (amen!) .
Which is great, but would of been better had they not have to go through the 7 year tribulation which will be a very , very bad time.
I hold on to the The Word of God.
I do not "grip" onto any theory.
I do not need to call upon the Lord to be saved , because I already am saved and SECURE in my Fathers hand which no man or means can pluck me from.
Amen.
All glory be to God now and forever!
⚘

 

[ItIsFinished!]

There was a five year tribulation from 66-70 AD.

Historical accounts confirm that it was unprecedented before, and unsurpassed since. (Matthew 24:21)

The Church will not be here whatsoever during the 7 year tribulation.
Thank God.

 

[keras]

I haven't seen any scriptural "proofs" that the concept of the rapture is false in any way whatsoever.

Below is a good article that refutes a 'rapture to heaven'. But the main reason that idea is wrong, is the many prophesies that do tell us God's Plans for His people, to spread the Gospel, be His witnesses and His Light to the nations.

Most Christians think that heaven is our destination and preachers tout it from the pulpit. Why then didn't the people of the Bible use such language? Could it be that they knew that going off to heaven where God the Father now dwells was NEVER promised to any earthy mortal person?

The word "heaven" is used 570 times in the Bible. "Heavenly" appears 23 times and "heavens" is used 121 times. Surely, somewhere, in all those uses we can find a statement: "When we are in heaven" or "We are going to go to heaven" or maybe "He has gone to God in heaven." If you take a Bible concordance you can find all the verses where "heaven," "heavenly," and heavens" are used throughout the Bible. Look them up! See if you can find a verse that says, "We shall go to heaven," "Heaven is our eternal abode," "They are up in heaven" or any plain statement about Christians or children of God going to be with God in heaven for ANY length of time. You have over 500 places where "heaven" is used. Try to find any verse that tells us clearly we shall someday, sometime, go to live where God the Father dwells.

There are THREE heavens mentioned in the Bible. 1) The heaven [atmosphere] where the birds fly. 2) the heaven [space] where the planets and stars are. 3) The heaven [spiritual] where God's throne is, where God is now.

I knew a man in Christ.... caught up to the THIRD heaven....He was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words....2 Cor. 12:2-4 The third heaven is where God dwells!
Paul does not say that he went to live in heaven, just heard secrets of God. Just as John did; Revelation 4:1

KINGDOM OF HEAVEN ?
Some will say, "Well Christ talked about our being in the Kingdom of heaven. Surely that proves we shall 'go to heaven'. If it does, then some shall be in heaven while others are not. Matthew 5:3-5. Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of heaven....blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. The Kingdom OF heaven is the Kingdom that BELONGS to heaven. It is owned and operated by heaven. the Kingdom that BELONGS to God, not the Kingdom inside God. The Gospels according to Mark and Luke use "Kingdom OF God"

OUR REWARD IS IN HEAVEN
Is not our reward to go to heaven? Are there not some verses that say something to that effect? Here they are: Rejoice, and be exceeding glad; for great is your reward in heaven.... Matthew 5:12 Do not display your religion before others, if you do you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. Matthew 6:1 But lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven.....Luke 6:23 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled…reserved in heaven for you. 1 Peter 1:4

Now, let's be honest. Do the above verses say: "Our reward is to get to heaven" or "When we get to heaven we shall be given our reward." Do these verses say: "Our reserved inheritance is to get to heaven to be with God" ? No, they do not! Truly, Christians will receive rewards and we are to inherit eternal life, but when? Eternal life comes at the resurrection. Read 1 Cor.15; Rev.2:10; 2 Tim.4:8 Our rewards are to be given to us by Christ at His return. And, behold, I come quickly, and MY REWARD IS WITH ME, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Rev. 22:12 Our rewards and inheritance are reserved in heaven. They come down out of heaven with Christ at his return.

NAMED TO GO TO HEAVEN?
Are not Christians named and written down in a book to go to heaven? ….but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven Luke 10:20 To the general assembly and church of
the firstborn, which are written in heaven....Heb. 12:23

Do these verses say, "Because you will go to heaven" or "The church of the firstborn will one day get to heaven" ? No! Our names (God knows who are His) are written down in the book of life, the Book of life being in heaven. But we receive life eternal after the Great White Throne Judgement, when the Book of Life is opened. Revelation 20:11-15


OUR HOPE....TO GO TO HEAVEN?
For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel. Col.1:5 What is the hope for Christians? Paul answers in another letter he wrote: But if there be NO RESURRECTION of the dead, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.....then they which are also fallen asleep in Christ are PERISHED....For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man on his own order: Christ the firstfruits: AFTERWARDS they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING. 1 Cor. 15: 13-23

Our HOPE is Christ, who has been raised from the dead and is now in heaven, waiting to be sent back to this earth when He shall RESURRECT the DEAD. 1 Thes.4: 16

Colossians 1:5 does NOT say, "Our hope is to get to heaven." Or "The church's hope is to be with Christ in heaven." It says: our HOPE is kept in heaven. That hope is Christ and His Return. Philippians 3:20 Christian believers are citizens of heaven and from heaven we can expect our Deliverer to come: The Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice! This Kingdom is in heaven that we are citizens of. If we be Christ's, we belong to His family. We are brothers of His, we are part of God's family, His children, and so of His government, kingdom, which is at present in heaven. Not that we are in heaven, for the reality is: we live on earth, but the Kingdom, where our citizenship is; that we now belong to, is in heaven.

NO MAN HAS EVER GONE TO HEAVEN
Here is a plain and easy to understand verse: And NO MAN has ASCENDED up to heaven, except for He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13 BELIEVE what Christ said, He should know. He was in heaven with the Father from the beginning, and He did not see any human ever come from earth up to heaven. It’s indisputable, Enoch could not have gone to the third heaven, neither did Moses, nor did Elijah. All humans who have ever lived, or will live, up to the Return of Jesus and are not still alive when Jesus comes, will sleep in death. They will be in the grave, and the martyrs, those killed for their faith, Revelation 20:4, wait to hear the voice of the Son of man, to rise from the dead in a resurrection. Then, for a thousand years they shall reign with Christ on His throne over this earth, as they establish the Kingdom of God on earth.

At the end of the thousand years comes the new heavens and the new earth. Then the heavenly Jerusalem together with God the Father will come from heaven to this new earth, which will then become the dwelling place of the throne of the universe for all Eternity.

What we can say is that we, the children of God, will one day be in heaven.....yes.....when heaven comes to earth. Revelation 21:1-4 But what we cannot say is that any human will be taken up to heaven to avoid the wrath to come. The Lord promises protection to all these who place their trust in Him and this may be a profound spiritual experience. Nahum 1:1-8, Isaiah 43:2, +
Ref: Keith Hunt

 

[ItIsFinished!]

Below is a good article that refutes a 'rapture to heaven'. But the main reason that idea is wrong, is the many prophesies that do tell us God's Plans for His people, to spread the Gospel, be His witnesses and His Light to the nations.

Most Christians think that heaven is our destination and preachers tout it from the pulpit. Why then didn't the people of the Bible use such language? Could it be that they knew that going off to heaven where God the Father now dwells was NEVER promised to any earthy mortal person?

The word "heaven" is used 570 times in the Bible. "Heavenly" appears 23 times and "heavens" is used 121 times. Surely, somewhere, in all those uses we can find a statement: "When we are in heaven" or "We are going to go to heaven" or maybe "He has gone to God in heaven." If you take a Bible concordance you can find all the verses where "heaven," "heavenly," and heavens" are used throughout the Bible. Look them up! See if you can find a verse that says, "We shall go to heaven," "Heaven is our eternal abode," "They are up in heaven" or any plain statement about Christians or children of God going to be with God in heaven for ANY length of time. You have over 500 places where "heaven" is used. Try to find any verse that tells us clearly we shall someday, sometime, go to live where God the Father dwells.

There are THREE heavens mentioned in the Bible. 1) The heaven [atmosphere] where the birds fly. 2) the heaven [space] where the planets and stars are. 3) The heaven [spiritual] where God's throne is, where God is now.

I knew a man in Christ.... caught up to the THIRD heaven....He was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words....2 Cor. 12:2-4 The third heaven is where God dwells!
Paul does not say that he went to live in heaven, just heard secrets of God. Just as John did; Revelation 4:1

KINGDOM OF HEAVEN ?
Some will say, "Well Christ talked about our being in the Kingdom of heaven. Surely that proves we shall 'go to heaven'. If it does, then some shall be in heaven while others are not. Matthew 5:3-5. Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of heaven....blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. The Kingdom OF heaven is the Kingdom that BELONGS to heaven. It is owned and operated by heaven. the Kingdom that BELONGS to God, not the Kingdom inside God. The Gospels according to Mark and Luke use "Kingdom OF God"

OUR REWARD IS IN HEAVEN
Is not our reward to go to heaven? Are there not some verses that say something to that effect? Here they are: Rejoice, and be exceeding glad; for great is your reward in heaven.... Matthew 5:12 Do not display your religion before others, if you do you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. Matthew 6:1 But lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven.....Luke 6:23 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled…reserved in heaven for you. 1 Peter 1:4

Now, let's be honest. Do the above verses say: "Our reward is to get to heaven" or "When we get to heaven we shall be given our reward." Do these verses say: "Our reserved inheritance is to get to heaven to be with God" ? No, they do not! Truly, Christians will receive rewards and we are to inherit eternal life, but when? Eternal life comes at the resurrection. Read 1 Cor.15; Rev.2:10; 2 Tim.4:8 Our rewards are to be given to us by Christ at His return. And, behold, I come quickly, and MY REWARD IS WITH ME, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Rev. 22:12 Our rewards and inheritance are reserved in heaven. They come down out of heaven with Christ at his return.

NAMED TO GO TO HEAVEN?
Are not Christians named and written down in a book to go to heaven? ….but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven Luke 10:20 To the general assembly and church of
the firstborn, which are written in heaven....Heb. 12:23

Do these verses say, "Because you will go to heaven" or "The church of the firstborn will one day get to heaven" ? No! Our names (God knows who are His) are written down in the book of life, the Book of life being in heaven. But we receive life eternal after the Great White Throne Judgement, when the Book of Life is opened. Revelation 20:11-15


OUR HOPE....TO GO TO HEAVEN?
For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel. Col.1:5 What is the hope for Christians? Paul answers in another letter he wrote: But if there be NO RESURRECTION of the dead, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.....then they which are also fallen asleep in Christ are PERISHED....For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man on his own order: Christ the firstfruits: AFTERWARDS they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING. 1 Cor. 15: 13-23

Our HOPE is Christ, who has been raised from the dead and is now in heaven, waiting to be sent back to this earth when He shall RESURRECT the DEAD. 1 Thes.4: 16

Colossians 1:5 does NOT say, "Our hope is to get to heaven." Or "The church's hope is to be with Christ in heaven." It says: our HOPE is kept in heaven. That hope is Christ and His Return. Philippians 3:20 Christian believers are citizens of heaven and from heaven we can expect our Deliverer to come: The Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice! This Kingdom is in heaven that we are citizens of. If we be Christ's, we belong to His family. We are brothers of His, we are part of God's family, His children, and so of His government, kingdom, which is at present in heaven. Not that we are in heaven, for the reality is: we live on earth, but the Kingdom, where our citizenship is; that we now belong to, is in heaven.

NO MAN HAS EVER GONE TO HEAVEN
Here is a plain and easy to understand verse: And NO MAN has ASCENDED up to heaven, except for He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13 BELIEVE what Christ said, He should know. He was in heaven with the Father from the beginning, and He did not see any human ever come from earth up to heaven. It’s indisputable, Enoch could not have gone to the third heaven, neither did Moses, nor did Elijah. All humans who have ever lived, or will live, up to the Return of Jesus and are not still alive when Jesus comes, will sleep in death. They will be in the grave, and the martyrs, those killed for their faith, Revelation 20:4, wait to hear the voice of the Son of man, to rise from the dead in a resurrection. Then, for a thousand years they shall reign with Christ on His throne over this earth, as they establish the Kingdom of God on earth.

At the end of the thousand years comes the new heavens and the new earth. Then the heavenly Jerusalem together with God the Father will come from heaven to this new earth, which will then become the dwelling place of the throne of the universe for all Eternity.

What we can say is that we, the children of God, will one day be in heaven.....yes.....when heaven comes to earth. Revelation 21:1-4 But what we cannot say is that any human will be taken up to heaven to avoid the wrath to come. The Lord promises protection to all these who place their trust in Him and this may be a profound spiritual experience. Nahum 1:1-8, Isaiah 43:2, +
Ref: Keith Hunt

Friend I never stated where believers go after the rapture, I just stated that I believe the rapture of The Church before the 7 year tribulation is Scriptural and it is.
The "real" undefiled Kingdom of God will not exist until all prophecy is fulfilled.
Therefore it would make sense that the believers at the time of the rapture would go to Paradise .
This isn't as complicated as some make it to be.

 

[keras]

This isn't as complicated as some make it to be.

No; Its very simple; There is no rapture removal to anywhere at the Lord's Day of wrath.
We must all face trials and testing, that is why I reiterate for us to stay strong in our faith thru all that must happen until Jesus Returns, then all those who have kept faithful to God, will be gathered to Jesus.

 

[BABerean2]

The Church will not be here during the 7 year tribulation.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ, found in Hebrews 12:22-24.

The New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.
Therefore, it cannot end before the Second Coming of Christ.

The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not found in the entire Book of Revelation.

Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.

.

 

[Biblewriter]

I am not implying anything.

Everyone here is able to compare what you say, to what the scriptures say.

Biblewriter said: ↑

"Not a single scripture ever, even once, even hints at the idea that Judah, Ephraim, or the names of any of the ten other tribes of Israel refer to the church."



Who was Peter addressing on the Day of Pentecost?

Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." (Who would all the house of Israel include?)
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
Act 2:40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
Act 2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.


Who was James addressing in his letter to his fellow believers?

Jas 1:1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings. (Who would the twelve tribes include?)
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,
Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.


The question is, will you take responsibility when what you say does not agree with scripture?

.

Tell me how either of these scriptures teaches that Judah, Ephraim, or any of the names of the other ten tribes means “the church.”

 

[ItIsFinished!]

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ, found in Hebrews 12:22-24.

The New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.
Therefore, it cannot end before the Second Coming of Christ.

The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not found in the entire Book of Revelation.

Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.

.

I never stated that the new covenant would end.
I stated that the Church would be removed (and will) before the 7 year tribulation.
This isn't a complicated understanding regarding the Scriptures.
Seriously.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

No; Its very simple; There is no rapture removal to anywhere at the Lord's Day of wrath.
We must all face trials and testing, that is why I reiterate for us to stay strong in our faith thru all that must happen until Jesus Returns, then all those who have kept faithful to God, will be gathered to Jesus.

So if one is saved , but doesn't remain faithful will not be "gathered " to Jesus??

 

[BABerean2]

I never stated that the new covenant would end.
I stated that the Church would be removed (and will) before the 7 year tribulation.
This isn't a complicated understanding regarding the Scriptures.
Seriously.

How are you going to separate the Church from the New Covenant? Seriously?


Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

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[BABerean2]

Tell me how either of these scriptures teaches that Judah, Ephraim, or any of the names of the other ten tribes means “the church.”

Can you explain who Peter was talking to on the Day of Pentecost in the passage below, when he used the term "all the house of Israel"?

Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
Act 2:40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
Act 2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.


Can you explain who James was talking to in the passage below, when he used the term "the twelve tribes"?

Jas 1:1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,
Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.


Can you explain how the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, has nothing to do with the Church?

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[ItIsFinished!]

How are you going to separate the Church from the New Covenant? Seriously?


Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

.

Easy.
I don't.
And , didn't.

 

[keras]

So if one is saved , but doesn't remain faithful will not be "gathered " to Jesus??

Yes.
But God is the Judge and He knows your heart, so there may be extenuating circumstances.

The reason I do what I can to warn people of the forthcoming great and terrible Day of the Lord, is that people who believe God will 'rapture' them out of it, may renounce their faith when what they expected, doesn't happen.
So all I ask of you and all those who believe in the 'rapture', is to be aware that it may not happen and be prepared to go thru that Day, but at all times; maintaining your trust and faith in the saving grace of Jesus.

 

[Biblewriter]

Can you explain who Peter was talking to on the Day of Pentecost in the passage below, when he used the term "all the house of Israel"?

"All the house of Israel" is very different from Judah. It is very different from Ephraim. And it is very different from every other one of the twelve tribes that are individually given specific promises.

Can you explain who James was talking to in the passage below, when he used the term "the twelve tribes"?

"The twelve tribes which are scattered abroad" is a commonly known reference to what is today called "the Diaspora," or "the Dispersion," as it is translated in John 7:35 and 1 Peter 1:1. It simply means the Israelite tribes which had been scattered all around the world. This is not even an implication of calling the church "the twelve tribes." This was rather a matter of stating that this message, like 1 Peter, was being specifically addressed to believers who were of "the dispersion," even as many of the epistles were addressed to the churches in various cities.

 

[BABerean2]

"All the house of Israel" is very different from Judah. It is very different from Ephraim. And it is very different from every other one of the twelve tribes that are individually given specific promises.

Are you going to tell us that the term "house of Israel" in the two passages below has nothing to do with the twelve tribes of Jacob?


Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.



Why did you ignore the following question of my last post?

Can you explain how the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, has nothing to do with the Church?

Did you ignore it because and understanding of the New Covenant kills the Two Peoples of God doctrine?


The New Covenant: Bob George

We are still waiting for you to share what you have written in your books about the New Covenant.

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