Discussion moved from "End Times Fiction" thread

[BABerean2]

After the Lord removes the Church before the 7 year tribulation many upon many will receive Christ as Saviour (amen) .
Many will be martyrs due to the Anti-christ and his murderous ways of those who accept Christ and reject him (Antichrist ) and worship of him.
All who accept Christ during the 7 year tribulation and die will be tribulation saints and will be resurrected at the Second Coming of Christ before the LITERAL 1,000 year earthly reign of Christ.

The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not found in the entire Book of Revelation.
Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.
The term "tribulation saints" was invented by pretribbers to make their doctrine work, because it is not found in the Bible.

There is no 7 year tribulation period found in scripture.
It can be produced by adding together two of the references to the 42 months in the Book of Revelation, or by taking Daniel 9:27 out of its New Covenant context.

Based on thousands of pages of commentary and sermons, almost none of the preachers from the time of the Revolutionary War ever heard of the story you are promoting.
The pretrib doctrine was brought to America by John Nelson Darby, about the time of the Civil War.

Keep repeating a story long enough, and many people will believe it.

.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not found in the entire Book of Revelation.
Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.
The term "tribulation saints" was invented by pretribbers to make their doctrine work, because it is not found in the Bible.

There is no 7 year tribulation period found in scripture.
It can be produced by adding together two of the references to the 42 months in the Book of Revelation, or by taking Daniel 9:27 out of its New Covenant context.

Based on thousands of pages of commentary and sermons, almost none of the preachers from the time of the Revolutionary War ever heard of the story you are promoting.
The pretrib doctrine was brought to America by John Nelson Darby, about the time of the Civil War.

Keep repeating a story long enough, and many people will believe it.

.

You are entitled to your beliefs as am I.

 

[BABerean2]

You are entitled to your beliefs as am I.

.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not found in the entire Book of Revelation.
Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.
The term "tribulation saints" was invented by pretribbers to make their doctrine work, because it is not found in the Bible.

There is no 7 year tribulation period found in scripture.
It can be produced by adding together two of the references to the 42 months in the Book of Revelation, or by taking Daniel 9:27 out of its New Covenant context.

Based on thousands of pages of commentary and sermons, almost none of the preachers from the time of the Revolutionary War ever heard of the story you are promoting.
The pretrib doctrine was brought to America by John Nelson Darby, about the time of the Civil War.

Keep repeating a story long enough, and many people will believe it.

.

The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not found in the entire Book of Revelation.
Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.
The term "tribulation saints" was invented by pretribbers to make their doctrine work, because it is not found in the Bible.

There is no 7 year tribulation period found in scripture.
It can be produced by adding together two of the references to the 42 months in the Book of Revelation, or by taking Daniel 9:27 out of its New Covenant context.

Based on thousands of pages of commentary and sermons, almost none of the preachers from the time of the Revolutionary War ever heard of the story you are promoting.
The pretrib doctrine was brought to America by John Nelson Darby, about the time of the Civil War.

Keep repeating a story long enough, and many people will believe it.

.

The tribulation saints can be found and discussed in Revelation 7:9 and verse 14.

The 7 year tribulation can be found in Daniel 9:24-27 without taking anything out of context.
The Great Tribulation (last 3 and a half years of the 7) can be found in Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:5.

The removal of the Church can be found in Thessalonians 4:13-18 , and 1st Corinthians 15:51-53.

All the above Scriptures are consistent and harmonious with other Scripture regarding the removal of the Church, a seven year tribulation with the great tribulation being the last 3 and a half years, and the tribulation saints who received Christ as Saviour during the 7 year tribulation.

As far as you implying that the removal of the Church is a "story" is absolutely baseless and unfounded.
As far as you saying the early church fathers didn't teach a pre-trib removal of the Church is also false.
There are plenty of prominent early believers/teachers/ theologians ect. that taught that doctrine.
Here are a few.

Papias (60-130)
Clement of Rome (90-100)
The Shepherd of Hermas (96-150)
Ignatius of Antioch (98-117)
Barnabas (100)
The Didache (100-160)
Justin Martyr (110-165)
The Epistle of Barnabas (117-138)
Irenaeus (120-202)
Tertullian (145-220)
Hippolytus (185-236)
Cyprian (200-250)
Lactantius (260-330)
This is to name a few , but there are more.
Some I'm sure you have heard of and maybe studied.
Some of the above mentioned had direct contact with the apostles.
The doctrine of a pre-trib rapture permeated the early church.
Good , sound, and orthodox believers have taught this view way before the 1,800's time period.

Friend , we can disagree on this and other Scripture, but we are commanded to love one another especially as brothers in Christ.
Disagreements such as this should never cause strife and division. That is not of God.

Peace in our Saviours name.

 

[Douggg]

The 7 year tribulation can be found in Daniel 9:24-27 without taking anything out of context.
The Great Tribulation (last 3 and a half years of the 7) can be found in Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:5.

The 7 years, the 70th week are still ahead of us, yes. But I would not call the 7 years the tribulation because much of the first half of it, the world will be saying peace and safety.

The Great Tribulation term is found in Matthew 24:21 and Revelation 7:14.

The term pre-trib should be re-named pre-70th week. It would be a lot more clearer if that were done.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

The 7 years, the 70th week are still ahead of us, yes. But I would not call the 7 years the tribulation because much of the first half of it, the world will be saying peace and safety.

The Great Tribulation term is found in Matthew 24:21 and Revelation 7:14.

Yes the great tribulation is also found in Matthew 24:21 and Rev. 7:14 as well as other Scripture .
Surprised I didn't post those, but it doesn't detract from what I was presenting regarding the other verses I provided.
And yes , the first 3 and a half years of the 7 year tribulation will have a sense of peace and safety, but still part of the tribulation none the less.
And obviously I agree the 70 week has not passed YET.

 

[Douggg]

And yes , the first 3 and a half years of the 7 year tribulation will have a sense of peace and safety, but still part of the tribulation none the less.

It is part of "the" tribulation - only because you have been conditioned to call it that.

I am not saying that the rapture might not take place pre-70th week; it certainly could. I just disagree with the terms being thrown around hap-hazardously out of habit.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

It is part of "the" tribulation - only because you have been conditioned to call it that.

I am not saying that the rapture might not take place pre-70th week; it certainly could. I just disagree with the terms being thrown around hap-hazardously out of habit.

I am not throwing anything out haphazardly nor have I been conditioned as you wrongly state.
The tribulation is 7 years, the Great Tribulation is the last 3 and a half years of the 7.
Nothing haphazardly being tossed around whatsoever.
At least you believe in the removal of the Church , maybe not the same timing as I, but at least you believe it to be true.
Bottom line neither of us know at what point the Church will be removed , but through my studies I believe it will be pre-trib not mid.
It baffles me that many do not believe in the removal of the Church just as much as it baffles me others think the Church replaced Israel .

 

[keras]

The removal of the Church can be found in Thessalonians 4:13-18 , and 1st Corinthians 15:51-53.

1 Thess 4:13-18, is a prophecy about the Return of Jesus to the earth for His Millennium reign.
1 Cor 15:50-56 is about the Great White Throne Judgement, after the Millennium.
Neither of these scriptures, or any other scripture, say that God will take His people to heaven.
The ECF's also never specifically state this doctrine. A 'rapture' has to be assumed, surmised or guessed at, therefore it is a false theory and will never happen.

And; the church of the faithful Christian believers; IS the Israel of God.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

1 Thess 4:13-18, is a prophecy about the Return of Jesus to the earth for His Millennium reign.
1 Cor 15:50-56 is about the Great White Throne Judgement, after the Millennium.
Neither of these scriptures, or any other scripture, say that God will take His people to heaven.
The ECF's also never specifically state this doctrine. A 'rapture' has to be assumed, surmised or guessed at, therefore it is a false theory and will never happen.

And; the church of the faithful Christian believers; IS the Israel of God.

Thanks for you're OPINION regarding Scripture.
I disagree with everything you stated in you're quoted post.
Also I provided a list of ECF that absolutely believed and taught about the removal of the Church before the 7 year tribulation.

 

[Douggg]

The tribulation is 7 years, the Great Tribulation is the last 3 and a half years of the 7.
Nothing haphazardly being tossed around whatsoever.

What is your basis for calling the 70th week the tribulation?

Bottom line neither of us know at what point the Church will be removed , but through my studies I believe it will be pre-trib not mid.

There are other possibilities.

The rapture just has to happen before the transgression of desolation takes place. We don't have enough information to know exactly when that will take place, but it has to be before the mid-point of the 7 years, by at least 3 months.

Anytime rapture between now (this very minute) and then.

 

[BABerean2]

As far as you implying that the removal of the Church is a "story" is absolutely baseless and unfounded.
As far as you saying the early church fathers didn't teach a pre-trib removal of the Church is also false.
There are plenty of prominent early believers/teachers/ theologians ect. that taught that doctrine.
Here are a few.

Papias (60-130)
Clement of Rome (90-100)
The Shepherd of Hermas (96-150)
Ignatius of Antioch (98-117)
Barnabas (100)
The Didache (100-160)
Justin Martyr (110-165)
The Epistle of Barnabas (117-138)
Irenaeus (120-202)
Tertullian (145-220)
Hippolytus (185-236)
Cyprian (200-250)
Lactantius (260-330)
This is to name a few , but there are more.
Some I'm sure you have heard of and maybe studied.
Some of the above mentioned had direct contact with the apostles.
The doctrine of a pre-trib rapture permeated the early church.
Good , sound, and orthodox believers have taught this view way before the 1,800's time period.

It sounds like you have been reading the cut and paste work of Grant Jeffrey and others who have converted the posttrib viewpoint of the early Church Fathers, into the pretrib viewpoint.


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf

.......................................

Author Tim LaHaye’s fictional books and movies known as the “Left Behind” series have convinced millions of modern Christians that the Pretrib doctrine is scriptural. Look at his quote below and consider carefully which viewpoint is the oldest.


"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the

post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."


Tim LaHaye, "Rapture Under Attack", page 197,

Multnomath Publishers, Inc., 1998

.

 

[DavidPT]

Hearing God called a madman and a liar would be surprising except when emanating from the dispensational pulpit of arrogance and ignorance.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The dispensational man is frequently indistinguishable from the natural man.


In God's New Will and Testament, all covenants and promises are fulfilled in Christ and those who are in Christ.

The OT covenants and promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator, coming into full force and effect upon His death.

If you have made your own Will and Testament, you will see that the very first clause states the following or its equivalent:

"I HEREBY REVOKE all former Wills and other testamentary dispositions by me at any time therefore made and declare this to be my Last Will and Testament."

This means that all former wills and testaments, and all of their promissory clauses in their entirety, are completely null and void. In their place, the promissory clauses of the current last new will and testament are the only ones in force and effect. Any promissory clause which appeared in the old will and testament, but does not appear in the new will and testament, is irrevocably null and void unless yet another new will and testament is made which re-includes it.

Thus we see:

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

God`s New Will and Testament is everlasting:

Hebrews 13
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.

There is none greater.

We see other new promissory clauses of the New Will and Testament in:

Matthew 21:33-45
In this parable, the son, who is identified as the heir, typifies Christ.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

In them, we see that the Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone, that all of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and that He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restoration promises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are no exceptions.

And His New Will and Testament contains even better promises:

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Such as:

Hebrews 11
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Additional promissory clauses in...:

Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

...make us who are in Christ joint heirs with Him.

But notice:
There are no promissory clauses for anyone, Jew or Gentile, who is not in Christ.

I'm not a dispy, yet I see nothing arrogant about concluding what Scriptures are concluding concerning the house of Israel in the end.

 

[DavidPT]

Israel must have ALREADY returned from exile for Gog/Magog. This seems to be a point you are not addressing. However, Ezekiel 39:21-29 does address Israel's exile and return.

But how am I avoiding it though? Did not the events of 70 AD initially send them back into exile? And didn't the early 20th century have them initially returning from Exile? Would not those of Israel, who began returning to their land early in the 20th century, fit unbelieving Israel? Is it not unbelieving Israel God has been hiding His face from in Ezekiel 39?

 

[claninja]

But how am I avoiding it though? Did not the events of 70 AD initially send them back into exile? And didn't the early 20th century have them initially returning from Exile? Would not those of Israel, who began returning to their land early in the first century, fit unbelieving Israel? Is it not unbelieving Israel God has been hiding His face from in Ezekiel 39?

Israel would be a land of unwalled villages when Gog would attempt to invade. So when would Israel be a land of unwalled villages? From an archeological perspective and from reading scripture, we know that physical Jerusalem and physical Israel had many walls and gates.
Ezekiel 38:11 You will say, “I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people—all of them living without walls and without gates and bars.

Zechariah states Jerusalem was going to be a city without walls when God's glory was within it
Zechariah 2:4-5 and said to him: “Run, tell that young man, ‘Jerusalem will be a city without walls because of the great number of people and animals in it. And I myself will be a wall of fire around it,’ declares the Lord, ‘and I will be its glory within.’

God would live among Israel and join many nations to Him that would become his people.
Zechariah 2:10-11 Shout and be glad, Daughter Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you,” declares the Lord. “Many nations will be joined with the Lord in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me to you.

The unwalled city is the body of Christ. For paul states that God was then living and dwelling with them in fulfillment of scripture:
2 Corinthians 6:16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”

Paul even states the gentiles (nations joined the jews; Zechariah 2:10-11) were part of the temple where God was dwelling with them:
Ephesians 2:16 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.


The unwalled village is not modern day Israel some 2000 years later. The unwalled village is Israel (the body of Christ) that came out of the 70 year exile, received Jesus, and received the poured out spirit of God at Pentecost.

 

[DavidPT]

Israel would be a land of unwalled villages when Gog would attempt to invade. So when would Israel be a land of unwalled villages? From an archeological perspective and from reading scripture, we know that physical Jerusalem and physical Israel had many walls and gates.
Ezekiel 38:11 You will say, “I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people—all of them living without walls and without gates and bars.

Zechariah states Jerusalem was going to be a city without walls when God's glory was within it
Zechariah 2:4-5 and said to him: “Run, tell that young man, ‘Jerusalem will be a city without walls because of the great number of people and animals in it. And I myself will be a wall of fire around it,’ declares the Lord, ‘and I will be its glory within.’

God would live among Israel and join many nations to Him that would become his people.
Zechariah 2:10-11 Shout and be glad, Daughter Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you,” declares the Lord. “Many nations will be joined with the Lord in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me to you.

The unwalled city is the body of Christ. For paul states that God was then living and dwelling with them in fulfillment of scripture:
2 Corinthians 6:16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”

Paul even states the gentiles (nations joined the jews; Zechariah 2:10-11) were part of the temple where God was dwelling with them:
Ephesians 2:16 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.


The unwalled village is not modern day Israel some 2000 years later. The unwalled village is Israel (the body of Christ) that came out of the 70 year exile, received Jesus, and received the poured out spirit of God at Pentecost.

I noticed I made a typo in my post, I meant early in the 20th century, and not the first century instead. I will fix that typo in that post so as to not confuse anyone. I don't think It confused you, but someone else might get confused by it if I don't fix that typo.

As to your reply here, as usual, though we are in disagreement about many of these things, you always manage to make some pretty compelling points. I have often wondered if there is a connection with that of Zechariah 2:4-5, so I do see you raising a valid point here. Let me consider what all you submitted here, and let me think on it a bit longer before concluding I'm still correct and that you are still incorrect.