Discussion - Earth calamities and Rumors of war

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jgr said in post #180:

Here is an account of 70 AD by a contemporary recognized Jewish historian. He identifies it as a holocaust. He states, "The cruelties inflicted by the Romans and the rebels within the walls compare with some of the worst atrocities of the 20th century." He certainly doesn't believe that "World War II was much worse".

He doesn't? Does he say that he doesn't?

If so, why doesn't he? For six times more Jews suffered and died in the Holocaust (6 million) than in 70 AD (1 million). And this doesn't even get into the something like 34 million non-Jews who died in World War II.

So to say that 70 AD was worse than World War II just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Also, the never-fulfilled war of Revelation 6:4-8 (see post #4 above) will kill one-fourth of the world, some 2 billion people.

So there is no way that 70 AD fulfilled the requirements of Matthew 24:21.

See also posts #164 and #162 above.

jgr said in post #180:

John Calvin's Commentary on Matthew 24
Matthew 24:34 . . .

Regarding Matthew 24:34, see post #87 above.

For Matthew 24:34 was not fulfilled in 70 AD, or within the lifetime of the apostles, because the Tribulation and Second Coming of Matthew 24:3-31 has never occurred. So Matthew 24:34 referred instead to the future generation that would see the rebudding of the fig tree in Matthew 24:32-34, which rebudding occurred in 1948 AD with the reestablishment of the state of Israel, the fig tree (Matthew 21:19,43, Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9).

When the future Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 is fulfilled, Jesus Christ will return immediately after it (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

For an example of how the Tribulation has not happened yet, the "time, and times, and half a time" in Revelation 12:14 will be the literal 3.5 years of the future Antichrist's worldwide reign (Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7), which time period is shown from four different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Part of that time period, which will occur in the second half of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, will be God's wrath, and part of it will not be. The part which will be God's wrath will be the plagues which His future, Two Witnesses will send upon the world (Revelation 11:3-6), and the part which will not be His wrath will be the Antichrist's persecution of the Church in every nation (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-14), that is, those in the Church who will not flee into God-protected wilderness places (Revelation 12:14).
 
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jgr

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He doesn't? Does he say that he doesn't?

If so, why doesn't he? For six times more Jews suffered and died in the Holocaust (6 million) than in 70 AD (1 million). And this doesn't even get into the something like 34 million non-Jews who died in World War II.

So to say that 70 AD was worse than World War II just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Also, the never-fulfilled war of Revelation 6:4-8 (see post #4 above) will kill one-fourth of the world, some 2 billion people.

So there is no way that 70 AD fulfilled the requirements of Matthew 24:21.

See also posts #164 and #162 above.



Regarding Matthew 24:34, see post #87 above.

For Matthew 24:34 was not fulfilled in 70 AD, or within the lifetime of the apostles, because the Tribulation and Second Coming of Matthew 24:3-31 has never occurred. So Matthew 24:34 referred instead to the future generation that would see the rebudding of the fig tree in Matthew 24:32-34, which rebudding occurred in 1948 AD with the reestablishment of the state of Israel, the fig tree (Matthew 21:19,43, Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9).

When the future Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 is fulfilled, Jesus Christ will return immediately after it (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

For an example of how the Tribulation has not happened yet, the "time, and times, and half a time" in Revelation 12:14 will be the literal 3.5 years of the future Antichrist's worldwide reign (Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7), which time period is shown from four different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Part of that time period, which will occur in the second half of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, will be God's wrath, and part of it will not be. The part which will be God's wrath will be the plagues which His future, Two Witnesses will send upon the world (Revelation 11:3-6), and the part which will not be His wrath will be the Antichrist's persecution of the Church in every nation (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-14), that is, those in the Church who will not flee into God-protected wilderness places (Revelation 12:14).

There seems to be a fixation on the idea that tribulation is defined primarily by numbers of deaths.

It is not.

It is far more, and far worse, than that. For the word tribulation is synonymous with suffering, and suffering is experienced during life, and ends, invariably mercifully, with death. Thus death is not tribulation. Rather, it is suffering during life which is tribulation.

The nature, scope, and scale of the suffering which were experienced and endured in 70 AD were, are, and will be, unprecedented and unsurpassed before or since. They represent the epitome and essence of tribulation.

That tribulation was an undeniable fulfillment of Matthew 24:21.

John Calvin leaves no doubt that he recognized the cited portion, and additional portions as seen in his associated commentary, of Matthew 24; to have been historically fulfilled.

Next:

The choice:

Bible2+: "No part of Matthew 24 has ever been fulfilled"

Martin Luther's sermon on the Abomination of Desolation (also referencing Luke 21)

9, Now Christ says, when the abomination, that is, this idol, [368] shall stand in the temple, the kingdom shall finally be made desolate and destroyed, so that it can never be rebuilt again, as Luke expresses it clearly in these words, 21, 20f: "But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that our desolation is at hand. Then let them that are in Judea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein. For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled."

And further, "Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! And pray ye that your flight may be not in the winter, neither on a Sabbath: for then shall be great tribulation, such as had not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be."

10. All this pertains still to the Jewish nation. For if this should come upon us at the end of the world, then would we, according to the text, have to be in the land of Judea, because he really points to that country. It is also true, when he says that no greater calamity has been or can be upon the earth than was at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem; as we see in history, how unmercifully they were slaughtered and even killed one another, cast themselves into the fire, and permitted themselves to kill one another.


Easy decision.
 
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jgr said in post #182:

There seems to be a fixation on the idea that tribulation is defined primarily by numbers of deaths.

Do you mean the numbers of deaths by crucifixions and internecine fighting?

If so, note that crucifixions and internecine fighting are not mentioned in Matthew 24:21-22, but the numbers of deaths (by whatever means) is mentioned. For Matthew 24:21-22 means that if the length of the future Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 were not limited by God, so many people would die that no flesh would survive on the earth (Matthew 24:22).

jgr said in post #182:

The nature, scope, and scale of the suffering which were experienced and endured in 70 AD were, are, and will be, unprecedented and unsurpassed before or since.

Note that the suffering of the 40 million people who died during World War II dwarfed the suffering of the 1 million people who died in 70 AD.

Also, the suffering of the 2 billion people who will die during the future war of Revelation 6:4-8 (see post #4 above) will dwarf the suffering of the 40 million people who died during World War II.

And then another 2 billion people will die during the future slaughter of Revelation 9:15-18.

This is why Matthew 24:21-22 is said.

jgr said in post #182:

John Calvin leaves no doubt that he recognized the cited portion, and additional portions as seen in his associated commentary, of Matthew 24; to have been historically fulfilled.

Note that Matthew 24:34 cannot possibly have been historically fulfilled, for it refers to "all these things" referred to previously in Matthew 24, including Jesus Christ's never-fulfilled Second Coming in Matthew 24:30-31. And note that this Second Coming must occur immediately after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which means that the Tribulation cannot possibly have been fulfilled yet.

For an example of how it has not happened yet, note that the seven heads of Revelation's "beast" in its empire aspect (Revelation 13:1, Revelation 17:3) represent seven empires (Revelation 17:9-10): Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and (possibly) Islam. The first five had fallen by the time of the apostle John in the first century AD: "five are fallen" (Revelation 17:10, Revelation 1:1b-2). The sixth (Rome) existed at the time of John: "one is" (Revelation 17:10). The seventh (possibly Islam) had not come by the time of John: "the other is not yet come" (Revelation 17:10). The empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will be a different, still-future, eighth head (Revelation 17:11), which will be a revival of one of five empires which had fallen by the time of the apostle John (Revelation 17:8,10-11). It will be a revival of the empire of Babylon. The Antichrist will transform the present-day, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq) into the capital of his world empire, only to see his city of Babylon destroyed at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Isaiah 13).

Before the Second Coming, when the world is brought into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and the Antichrist, during the future Antichrist's literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist will build their main temple in the city of Babylon. For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11; cf. Daniel 1:1-2), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.

The Antichrist may claim to be Nebuchadnezzar returned (via "reincarnation"), and so reinstitute the system which Nebuchadnezzar set up whereby everyone had to worship an image or be killed (Daniel 3, Revelation 13:15). The Antichrist may also claim to be, at the same time, the return of Nimrod (the founder of Babylon: Genesis 10:8-10), and Hammurabi, and Asoka, and other famous rulers of the past. For he may claim that he has had many different "past lives" as various "enlightened" rulers.

Besides building a main temple in Babylon, the Antichrist will also sit (at least one time) in a future, third Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and declare himself God there (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). The Antichrist could also sit (at least one time) in other religions' holiest shrines, and declare himself to be God there as well. For example, he could also sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc.

jgr said in post #182:

Martin Luther's sermon on the Abomination of Desolation (also referencing Luke 21)

9, Now Christ says, when the abomination, that is, this idol, [368] shall stand in the temple, the kingdom shall finally be made desolate and destroyed, so that it can never be rebuilt again, as Luke expresses it clearly in these words, 21, 20f: "But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that our desolation is at hand. Then let them that are in Judea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein. For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled."

Regarding Luke 21:20, see post #156 above.

Regarding the abomination of desolation, see post #55 above.

jgr quoted Luther in post #182:

10. All this pertains still to the Jewish nation. For if this should come upon us at the end of the world, then would we, according to the text, have to be in the land of Judea, because he really points to that country.

Note that the Jewish nation is in Judaea today.

See also the "Judaea" part of post #55 above.

The rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just as Jesus Christ's cursing of the literal, fruitless fig tree (Matthew 21:19) foreshadowed His curse on the part of Old Covenant Israel which rejected Him (Matthew 21:43). For a fig tree can represent Israel (Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9). And the Israel which was reestablished in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel which Jesus cursed at His first coming, insofar as it still mistakenly rejects Jesus and still mistakenly considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was only a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit. And the non-Christian nation-state of Old Covenant Israel which was reestablished by humans in 1948 may never bear fruit. For it could be destroyed before Jesus' Second Coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army (see post #4 above), just as it had been destroyed in 70 AD by a Roman-empire army.

But Jesus Christ's Kingdom is still called "Israel" (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at His future, Second Coming, He will sit on the earthly throne of King David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7) and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21).

jgr quoted Luther in post #182:

It is also true, when he says that no greater calamity has been or can be upon the earth than was at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem; as we see in history, how unmercifully they were slaughtered and even killed one another, cast themselves into the fire, and permitted themselves to kill one another.

Do you believe (as is sometimes claimed) that 50 million people or more were slaughtered over more than 1,200 years by the papacy?

If so, how can 1 million people being slaughtered in 70 AD be worse than that?

Also, note that nowhere in 70 AD was the unprecedented horror of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, where 150,000 innocent men, women, and children were intentionally targeted and burned to death with nuclear fire.

And nowhere in 70 AD was the horror of the American Civil War, when 600,000 Americans were slaughtered at the hands of their fellow Americans.

And even long before 70 AD, the Jews had the huge civil war between their northern kingdom (Israel) and their southern kingdom (Judah) which went on for some 200 years (from about 922 BC to 722 BC) and involved battles in which as many as 500,000 Jews were slaughtered by their fellow Jews (2 Chronicles 13:16-18; cf. also 2 Chronicles 28:6).

So 70 AD was neither unprecedented, nor is it the worst time ever.

And so it in no way fulfills the requirements of Matthew 24:21-22.
 
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jgr

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Do you mean the numbers of deaths by crucifixions and internecine fighting?

Numbers of deaths by any means are not a measure of tribulation, which by definition refers only to the suffering of the living.

Note that the suffering of the 40 million people who died during World War II dwarfed the suffering of the 1 million people who died in 70 AD.

If you can cite agreement by a credible recognized source who understands the nature and significance of the suffering in both instances, feel free to do so.

Many of those who died in WW2 died instantaneously or relatively quickly by bombs or bullets. They did not experience tribulation.

AD 70 was unmistakably a divine judgment, acknowledged by Josephus, consistent with Christ's prediction. It was a divine judgment unprecedented and unsurpassed before or since. The tribulation fulfilling an unprecedented unsurpassed divine judgment is not comparable to any other temporal tribulation, e.g. WW2, occurring at any other time in history.

Martin Luther would undoubtedly have been aware of the magnitude of at least some of the death toll attributable to the apostate papacy.

Yet he leaves no doubt that he recognized the cited portions of Matthew 24 to have been historically fulfilled.

Next:

The choice:

Bible2+: "No part of Matthew 24 has ever been fulfilled"

Adam Clarke

Matthew 24:15
The abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel - This abomination of desolation, St. Luke, (Luk 21:20, Luk 21:21), refers to the Roman army; and this abomination standing in the holy place is the Roman army besieging Jerusalem; this, our Lord says, is what was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, in the ninth and eleventh chapters of his prophecy; and so let every one who reads these prophecies understand them; and in reference to this very event they are understood by the rabbins. The Roman army is called an abomination, for its ensigns and images, which were so to the Jews. Josephus says, (War, b. vi. chap. 6), the Romans brought their ensigns into the temple, and placed them over against the eastern gate, and sacrificed to them there. The Roman army is therefore fitly called the abomination, and the abomination which maketh desolate, as it was to desolate and lay waste Jerusalem; and this army besieging Jerusalem is called by St. Mark, Mar 13:14, standing where it ought not, that is, as in the text here, the holy place; as not only the city, but a considerable compass of ground about it, was deemed holy, and consequently no profane persons should stand on it.

Matthew 24:16
Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains - This counsel was remembered and wisely followed by the Christians afterwards. Eusebius and Epiphanius say, that at this juncture, after Cestius Gallus had raised the siege, and Vespasian was approaching with his army, all who believed in Christ left Jerusalem and fled to Pella, and other places beyond the river Jordan; and so they all marvellously escaped the general shipwreck of their country: not one of them perished. See on Mat 24:13 (note).


Easy decision.
 
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jgr said in post #184:

Numbers of deaths by any means are not a measure of tribulation, which by definition refers only to the suffering of the living.

Note that the future Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will involve not only suffering, but so much death that if God had not limited the time of the Tribulation, no flesh would survive on the earth (Matthew 24:21-22).

jgr said in post #184:

Many of those who died in WW2 died instantaneously or relatively quickly by bombs or bullets. They did not experience tribulation.

Note that most of the 40 million people who died in World War II did experience great suffering before they died, and so they did experience tribulation, but not the never-fulfilled Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18.

Also, the suffering of the millions of not-mortally wounded, burned, starved, etc. people during the war also experienced tribulation.

And there is simply no comparison between the total amount of tribulation experienced by hundreds of millions of people in World War II to that of the 1 million Jews in 70 AD.

jgr said in post #184:

[Re: 70 AD]

It was a divine judgment unprecedented and unsurpassed before or since.

Note that the Flood was worse. Also, nothing requires that 70 AD surpassed 586 BC or 722 BC with regard to God bringing judgment on the Jews.

Also, the total amount of suffering of the 6 million Jews who were imprisoned, starved, and murdered at the hands of the Nazis, such as in Auschwitz, surpassed the suffering of the 1 million Jews in 70 AD.

jgr said in post #184:

Adam Clarke

Matthew 24:15
The abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel - This abomination of desolation, St. Luke, (Luk 21:20, Luk 21:21), refers to the Roman army; and this abomination standing in the holy place is the Roman army besieging Jerusalem . . .

Regarding Luke 21:20, see post #156 above.

Regarding Luke 21:21, see the "Judaea" part of post #55 above.

Regarding the abomination of desolation, see post #55 above.

Regarding Titus' armies in 70 AD, see post #115 above.

Also, note that what happened in 70 AD in no way fulfilled the Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 because Jesus Christ did not return immediately after 70 AD; but He must return immediately after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

For an example of how the Tribulation has never happened, note that the future Antichrist's reign will be legal, for it will be part of Satan's legal reign over the earth (Luke 4:5-7). For Revelation 13:2b refers to when Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9) will give the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") Satan's own earthly throne (seat) and power, so that the Antichrist will have power over all nations (Revelation 13:7). This is what Satan offered Jesus Christ, if He would worship Satan (Luke 4:5-7). In the first century AD, Satan's earthly throne was in the city of Pergamos (Revelation 2:12-13), also called Pergamum (in what is now western Turkey). Satan's earthly throne could be the Great Altar of Pergamum, also called the Pergamon Altar, which in ancient times was sometimes included as one of the seven wonders of the world.

It may not be just a coincidence that shortly after the Pergamon Altar was moved to Berlin around 1900 AD, both World Wars were started from Berlin, or that "the Nazi-era architect Albert Speer used the Pergamon Altar as the model for the Zeppelintribüne, 1934-37. The Führer's pulpit was in the center of the tribune" (Pergamon Altar - Wikipedia) (quote has been deleted for some reason). When the future Antichrist is given power over the whole earth (Revelation 13:7), his throne could be located in the center of the actual Pergamon Altar, which he could move from Berlin to a main temple to himself (and to Lucifer/Satan) in the literal, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq). For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11; cf. Daniel 1:1-2), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.
 
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jgr

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Note that the future Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will involve not only suffering, but so much death that if God had not limited the time of the Tribulation, no flesh would survive on the earth (Matthew 24:21-22).

The 70 AD tribulation of Matthew 24 saw suffering unprecedented and unsurpassed before or since. (Matthew 24:21). If God had not shortened its duration, it would have reached beyond the Judean borders to His elect who had previously fled (Matthew 24:16,22).

And there is simply no comparison between the total amount of tribulation experienced by hundreds of millions of people in World War II to that of the 1 million Jews in 70 AD.

Awaiting citation of a credible recognized source who agrees.

Note that the Flood was worse.

The suffering of drowning is exceeded by that of crucifixion, evisceration, immolation, starvation, etc.

Also, the total amount of suffering of the 6 million Jews who were imprisoned, starved, and murdered at the hands of the Nazis, such as in Auschwitz, surpassed the suffering of the 1 million Jews in 70 AD.

Awaiting citation of a credible recognized source who agrees.

It may not be just a coincidence that shortly after the Pergamon Altar was moved to Berlin around 1900 AD, both World Wars were started from Berlin, or that "the Nazi-era architect Albert Speer used the Pergamon Altar as the model for the Zeppelintribüne, 1934-37. The Führer's pulpit was in the center of the tribune"

Albert Speer and the Führer did not participate in the unprecedented unsurpassed tribulation of 70 AD.


Adam Clarke leaves no doubt that he recognized the cited portions of Matthew 24 to have been historically fulfilled.

Next:

The choice:

Bible2+: "No part of Matthew 24 has ever been fulfilled"

Matthew Henry
Matthew 24:21

There shall be great tribulation. Great, indeed, when within the city plague and famine raged, and (worse than either) faction and division, so that every man’s sword was against his fellow; then and there it was that the hands of the pitiful women flayed their own children. Without the city was the Roman army ready to swallow them up, with a particular rage against them, not only as Jews, but as rebellious Jews. War was the only one of the three sore judgments that David excepted against; but that was it by which the Jews were ruined; and there were famine and pestilence in extremity besides. Josephus’s History of the Wars of the Jews, has in it more tragical passages than perhaps any history whatsoever.(1.) It was a desolation unparalleled, such as was not since the beginning of the world, nor ever shall be. Many a city and kingdom has been made desolate, but never any with a desolation like this.


Easy decision.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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jgr said in post #180:

Here is an account of 70 AD by a contemporary recognized Jewish historian. He identifies it as a holocaust. He states, "The cruelties inflicted by the Romans and the rebels within the walls compare with some of the worst atrocities of the 20th century." He certainly doesn't believe that "World War II was much worse".
He doesn't? Does he say that he doesn't?
If so, why doesn't he? For six times more Jews suffered and died in the Holocaust (6 million) than in 70 AD (1 million). And this doesn't even get into the something like 34 million non-Jews who died in World War II.

So to say that 70 AD was worse than World War II just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Also, the never-fulfilled war of Revelation 6:4-8 (see post #4 above) will kill one-fourth of the world, some 2 billion people.

So there is no way that 70 AD fulfilled the requirements of Matthew 24:21.
Bible2+ said:
Also, the total amount of suffering of the 6 million Jews who were imprisoned, starved, and murdered at the hands of the Nazis, such as in Auschwitz, surpassed the suffering of the 1 million Jews in 70 AD.
The 70 AD tribulation of Matthew 24 saw suffering unprecedented and unsurpassed before or since. (Matthew 24:21). If God had not shortened its duration, it would have reached beyond the Judean borders to His elect who had previously fled (Matthew 24:16,22).
During WWII the Jews were slaughtered in different parts of Germany and Europe, not all in one City [as in 70ad Jerusalem].
The Nazi led holocaust was over a period of about 10 to 12 years, not exactly what I would call a "short period" of time..

Compare that to the short 5 months 70ad Jerusalem endured in that "holocaust" [according to Josephus].

History of the Jews during World War II - Wikipedia

Between 1933 and 1945, Nazi Germany and its allies established more than 42,000 camps and other incarceration sites (including ghettos). The perpetrators used these sites for a range of purposes, including forced labor, detention of people thought to be enemies of the state, and mass murder.

By the end of the war, more than half of Jewish population of Europe had been killed in the Holocaust. Poland, home of the largest Jewish community in the world before the war, had over 90% of its Jewish population, or about 3,000,000 Jews, murdered by the Nazis. Greece, Yugoslavia, Lithuania, Czechoslovakia, the Netherlands, and Latvia each had over 70% of their Jewish population killed.

Hungary and Albania lost around half of their Jewish populations, the Soviet Union, Germany, Austria and Luxembourg lost over one third of its Jews, Belgium and France each saw around a quarter of their Jewish populations killed....
Unless you and/or others see Berlin, Germany as that great City in Revelation, then the only other City it could be is Jerusalem 70ad.

Jesus specifically says so right here in black and white in the Holy Writ:

Matthew 23:37

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
Luke 13:34
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

Matthew 24:21
19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those, the days!
21 for then shall be great Tribulation<2347> , such as was not from the beginning of world till now, no, nor may be becoming.

Mark 13:17
“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days

Luke 21:
22 “For these are the days of Vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great Distress<318> in the land and wrath upon this people.


Mattthew 24:22
And if no was shortened those days, not ever was saved all flesh.
Because of yet the elect-chosen/eklektouV<1588>, shall be being shortened/<2856> those days. [Mark 13:20]

Mark 13:20 And if no Lord shortens those days, not ever was saved all flesh
but because of the chosen-ones whom He chooses, He shortens<2856> the days [Matt 24:22]

In Revelation 9, it shows the 70ad Jews are tormented 5 months.
This has to be the Great Tribulation and Distress mentioned in the Jerusalem/Temple discourses:

Revelation 9:5
And was given to them that not they should be killing them, but that they should be being tormented five months
And the torment of them as torment of a scorpion/skorpiou <4651>, whenever it should be striking a man;
[coincidentally, the same amount of time the flood covered the earth in Genesis:
Genesis 7:24 And the waters prevailed on the earth one hundred and fifty days.
Revelation 6:6
And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying: "choinex of grain/wheat a denari and three choinex of barleys a denari, and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring". [John 11:48]

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD


The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover.....
The city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers, and foreigners from all parts, so that the whole nation may be considered as having been shut up in one prison, preparatory to the execution of the Divine vengeance ; and, according to Josephus this event took place suddenly

Revelation 1:
1 An-uncovering of Jesus Christ, which gives to Him, the GOD, to show to the bond-servants of Him, which-things is binding to be becoming In Swiftness<5034>.
3 Blessed/happy the one reading, and the ones hearing, the Words of the Prophecy, and keepings in it having been Written/gegrammena <1125> (5772),
for the time/season is Nigh<1451>.
I had read Revelation 6:6 denotes "famine"

Revelation 6:6
And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying: "choinex of grain/wheat a denari and three choinex of barleys a denari, and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring".

Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive. The Jews, for of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen. In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ;
At the recital of this melancholy and affecting occurrence, the whole city stood aghast, and poured forth their congratulations on those whom death had hurried away from such heartrending scenes
Revelation 9:6

In those days men will seeking the death and will not find it;
they will desire to be dying die, and the death will flee from them.

This memorable siege terminated on the eighth day of the ninth month, A.D. 70 : its duration was nearly five months, the Romans having invested the city on the fourteenth day of the fourth month, preceeding.

Before their final demolition, however, Titus took a survey of the city and its fortifications ; and, while contemplating their impregnable strength, could not help ascribing his success to the peculiar interposition of the ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. "Had not God himself (exclaimed he) aided out operations, and driven the Jews from their fortresses, it would have been absolutely impossible to have taken them ; for what could men, and the force of engines, have done against such towers as these ?"

Mattthew 24:22
And if no was shortened those days, not ever was saved all flesh.
Because of yet the elect-chosen/eklektouV<1588>, shall be being shortened/<2856> those days. [Mark 13:20]


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The 70 AD tribulation of Matthew 24 saw suffering unprecedented and unsurpassed before or since. (Matthew 24:21). If God had not shortened its duration, it would have reached beyond the Judean borders to His elect who had previously fled (Matthew 24:16,22).
Awaiting citation of a credible recognized source who agrees.
The suffering of drowning is exceeded by that of crucifixion, evisceration, immolation, starvation, etc.
Awaiting citation of a credible recognized source who agrees.
Albert Speer and the Führer did not participate in the unprecedented unsurpassed tribulation of 70 AD.
Adam Clarke leaves no doubt that he recognized the cited portions of Matthew 24 to have been historically fulfilled.

Next:
The choice:

Bible2+: "No part of Matthew 24 has ever been fulfilled"

Matthew Henry
Matthew 24:21

There shall be great tribulation. Great, indeed, when within the city plague and famine raged, and (worse than either) faction and division, so that every man’s sword was against his fellow; then and there it was that the hands of the pitiful women flayed their own children. Without the city was the Roman army ready to swallow them up, with a particular rage against them, not only as Jews, but as rebellious Jews. War was the only one of the three sore judgments that David excepted against; but that was it by which the Jews were ruined; and there were famine and pestilence in extremity besides. Josephus’s History of the Wars of the Jews, has in it more tragical passages than perhaps any history whatsoever.(1.) It was a desolation unparalleled, such as was not since the beginning of the world, nor ever shall be. Many a city and kingdom has been made desolate, but never any with a desolation like this.

Easy decision.
Excellent!
Jesus mentions the prophet Daniel and the AoD in the Olivet Discourse and I remember something about Daniel mentioning the end would be with a "flood", which I can see as the flood of Roman army decimating 70ad Jerusalem.
Pretty interesting.......

The Flood of Daniel 9:26
In the outline of the future of God's holy city Jerusalem, that is contained in the prophecy about the 70 Weeks, Daniel mentioned a "flood". Daniel 9:26 says, in part:

And the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

This prophecy of the 70 Weeks is focused upon the holy city Jerusalem, and refers to the street being repaired, and wall being rebuilt, as happened when some of the Jews returned from Babylon after the captivity. But the city of Jerusalem is a type or figure of the holy city, the Church, which Paul calls the "Jerusalem which is above" in Galatians 4:26.

There is a question about what kind of flood is referred to in Daniel 9:26. Some have suggested that it refers to an army, or military operation of some sort, in the vicinity of Jerusalem. If it is taken to be a literal flood of water, where would all that water come from? Jerusalem is located high above any river. Could it refer to some other kind of flood? If the nature of the flood is not correctly understood, much of point of Daniel's prophecy will be missed.........................
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 harmonized

Luke 19:
41 And as He nears, beholding the City and He laments on Her,
42 saying, "That if Thou-knew, and Thou, even indeed in the day, this, the toward peace of Thee, now yet it was Hid from thy eyes.
43 That shall be arriving days upon Thee, and
thy Enemies shall be casting up a siege-work to Thee,
and shall be encompassing Thee, and pressing Thee every which place.
44 And shall be leveling Thee and Thy offspring in Thee,
and not shall be leaving stone upon stone in Thee,
instead which not Thou knew the time of Thy visitation/episkophV <1984>"



https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html

CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR

Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70

Jerusalem 70ad  map_legions_ad70.jpg


Mat 24:16
“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Mark 13:14
“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Luke 21:21
“Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.


https://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/p/pella-flight.html

AD 66-70 Flights from Jerusalem
Recorded by Josephus (Written in AD75)

As a result of the First Jewish War, CE 66-70, many Judean Christians, seeking safety, escaped the destruction of Jerusalem by scattering throughout the Near East. It appears that a number of Jerusalem's Judeo-Christian community relocated to Pella, a city of the Decapolis, located east of the Jordan River.

Eusebius, writing in his Ecclesiastical History some 250 years after the fact, following an anti-Judaic invention, believed the Jerusalem congregation departed the city just before the war.
The whole body, however, of the church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation, given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan, called Pella. Here those that believed in Christ, having removed from Jerusalem, as if holy men had entirely abandoned the royal city itself, and the whole land of Judea; the divine justice, for their crimes against Christ and his apostles finally overtook them, totally destroying the whole generation of these evildoers from the earth. (Eusebius Eccl. Hist. 3.5; Boyle 1955:86.)




pella map.gif




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jgr said in post #186:

The 70 AD tribulation of Matthew 24 saw suffering unprecedented and unsurpassed before or since. (Matthew 24:21).

Note that the total amount of suffering by hundreds of millions of people during World War II was orders of magnitude greater than 70 AD. And the total amount of suffering by billions of people during the future Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will be orders of magnitude greater than World War II. For example, the pain which humanity will experience during the five months of Revelation 9:5-10 will be so intense that people will want to die (Revelation 9:6).

jgr said in post #186:

[Re: 70 AD]

If God had not shortened its duration, it would have reached beyond the Judean borders to His elect who had previously fled (Matthew 24:16,22).

Why?

And don't you mean its geographical scope rather than its duration?

Also, note that the future Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Luke 21 will reach all nations (Luke 21:25-26).

jgr said in post #186:

[Re: World War II was worse than 70 AD]

Awaiting citation of a credible recognized source who agrees.

Have you cited someone who claims that 70 AD was worse than World War II?

jgr said in post #186:

[Re: The Flood]

The suffering of drowning is exceeded by that of crucifixion, evisceration, immolation, starvation, etc.

But note that the total amount of suffering in the Flood exceeded 70 AD because of the much greater number of people involved in the Flood.

Also, how many Christians were crucified in Rome in 64 AD, and in later persecutions of the Church by the Romans, which persecution went on for centuries? Also, note that Christians who were crucified in Rome in 64 AD were also set on fire while they were still alive on their crosses. There is no more painful death than burning.

Also, note that what happened to the Jews in 70 AD was later dwarfed by the horrible and unprecedented Holocaust.

jgr said in post #186:

Awaiting citation of a credible recognized source who agrees.

Have you cited someone who claims that 70 AD was worse than the Holocaust?

jgr said in post #186:

Albert Speer and the Führer did not participate in the unprecedented unsurpassed tribulation of 70 AD.

Note that 70 AD was neither unprecedented nor unsurpassed.

jgr said in post #186:

Adam Clarke leaves no doubt that he recognized the cited portions of Matthew 24 to have been historically fulfilled.

Neither did Chrysostom, even though he gave a different story.

And neither did Luther, even though he too was fallible.

For example, someone once quoted Luther about Revelation: "Christ is neither taught nor known in it".

But the truth is that the entire book of Revelation is from Jesus Christ to the Church (Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16). And Christ is taught and known throughout the book. For Revelation 1 is about Christ's appearance and His speaking to the apostle John while John was on Patmos. And Revelation chapters 2-3 are letters which Christ spoke directly to seven church congregations. And Revelation 5 is about Christ as the Lamb (cf. John 1:36, Acts 8:32; 1 Peter 1:19), now in heaven. And Revelation 6 is about how Christ will unseal the seven seals of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. And Revelation 7:9-17 is about Christ comforting the souls of dead Christians in heaven. And Revelation 11:8 refers to Christ as our Lord. And Revelation 11:15 refers to Christ in our future, taking legal possession of all of the kingdoms of the world away from the future Antichrist. And Revelation 12:10 mentions the power of Christ. And Revelation 12:11 refers to Christian martyrs overcoming Satan by the blood of Christ. And Revelation 12:17 refers to Christians having the testimony of Christ (Revelation 12:17). And Revelation 13:8 mentions Christ. And Revelation 14:1 refers to Christ standing on the heavenly Mount Zion (cf. Hebrews 12:22). And Revelation 14:4 refers to how the 144,000 will be Christ's followers (Revelation 14:4).

And Revelation 14:10 refers to those in hell in the future being tormented in the presence of Christ. And Revelation 14:12-13 refers to Christians keeping the faith of Christ even unto martyrdom. And Revelation 14:14-16 refers to Christ reaping their souls into heaven after their death. And Revelation 15:3 refers to the song of Christ. And Revelation 16:15 quotes something which Christ says. And Revelation 17:6 refers to those martyred for Christ. And Revelation 17:14 refers to Christ's future victory (as Lord of lords and King of kings) over the powers of the non-Christian world. And Revelation 19:7 refers to Christ's future marriage to the Church. And Revelation 19:9 refers to the marriage supper of Christ. And Revelation 19:10 refers to those who have the testimony of Christ, and says that the testimony of Christ is the spirit of prophecy. And Revelation 19:11-21 describes Christ's future, Second Coming. And Revelation 20:4-6 refers to Christ's subsequent Millennial reign on the earth with the physically resurrected Church for 1,000 years. And Revelation 20:11-15 refers to when Christ will resurrect and judge (cf. John 5:22,28-29) all non-Christians of all times. And Revelation 21:9 refers to how the literal city of New Jerusalem pictures Christ's bride, the Church. And Revelation 21:14 mentions Christ's apostles.

And Revelation 21:22 refers to Christ Himself and God the Father as the temple of New Jerusalem. And Revelation 21:23 refers to Christ being the light of New Jerusalem. And Revelation 21:27 refers to Christ's Book of Life. And Revelation 22:1,3 refers to the throne of Christ and God the Father. And Revelation 22:3 refers to the servants of Christ and God the Father. And Revelation 22:7,12-13,16,20a quotes Christ. And Revelation 22:17,20b refers to the Church calling for Christ's (still future) Second Coming. And Revelation 22:21 closes the book with: "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen", just as the book had opened with: "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" (Revelation 1:1).

So it does not seem possible that anyone could say that Christ is neither taught nor known in the book of Revelation.

jgr said in post #186:

Matthew Henry
Matthew 24:21

There shall be great tribulation. Great, indeed, when within the city plague and famine raged, and (worse than either) faction and division, so that every man’s sword was against his fellow; then and there it was that the hands of the pitiful women flayed their own children.

Note that none of those things was unprecedented or unsurpassed.

For example, Jews ate their own children during the siege of Jerusalem in 586 BC (Jeremiah 19:9, Lamentations 4:10), and before that during the siege of the Israelite city of Samaria in 722 BC (2 Kings 6:25-29). The future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be so bad as "was not since the beginning of the world" (Matthew 24:21).

Also, the American Civil War, for example, had Americans using their weapons against their fellow Americans, resulting in some 600,000 casualties. And even long before 70 AD, the Jews themselves had their huge civil war between their northern kingdom (Israel) and their southern kingdom (Judah) which went on for some 200 years (from about 922 BC to 722 BC) and involved battles in which as many as 500,000 Jews were slaughtered by their fellow Jews (2 Chronicles 13:16-18; cf. also 2 Chronicles 28:6).

Also, a 70 AD famine was not the fulfillment of the "famines" part of Matthew 24:7 any more than just because the worst famines in history occurred centuries later (such as the Great Chinese Famine and the Bengal Famine) does not make those famines the fulfillment of the "famines" part of Matthew 24:7. Unprecedented famines could occur after the unprecedented war in Revelation 6:4-8 which will begin the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. See the "famines" part of post #4 above.

Also, a 70 AD plague was not larger than the Spanish Flu Epidemic or the Black Death Epidemic.

jgr quoted Henry in post #186:

Many a city and kingdom has been made desolate, but never any with a desolation like this.

Note that Sodom and Gomorrah was a worse desolation.

Also, note that nothing in 70 AD fulfilled the Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 because Jesus Christ's Second Coming must occur immediately after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And His Second Coming has not occurred yet.

For an example of how the Tribulation has not happened yet, note that Revelation 13:3 could have a dual meaning. For it could refer to the revival of a dead, past empire, that is, one of the seven heads of Revelation's "beast" in its empire aspect (Revelation 13:1). And at the same time, it could apply, along with Revelation 13:14b, to the revival of the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), after he dies from a head wound in an assassination.

Regarding the revival of a dead, past empire, see the "seven heads" part of post #183 above.

Regarding the revival of an assassinated Antichrist, see the "image of the beast" part of post #49 above.
 
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LittleLambofJesus said in post #187:

During WWII the Jews were slaughtered in different parts of Germany and Europe, not all in one City [as in 70ad Jerusalem].

Which is one of the reasons that the Holocaust was worse than 70 AD.

LittleLambofJesus said in post #187:

The Nazi led holocaust was over a period of about 10 to 12 years, not exactly what I would call a "short period" of time..

Indeed. And that is another way in which the Holocaust was worse than 70 AD.

But what verse are you thinking of with regard to a "short period" of time?

For the future Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 could last about seven years, which could be the "shortened" time of Matthew 24:22 in comparison with a longer time which would result in the extinction of all flesh on the planet (Matthew 24:22). See the "Mark 13:20" part of post #129 above.

LittleLambofJesus said in post #187:

Unless you and/or others see Berlin, Germany as that great City in Revelation, then the only other City it could be is Jerusalem 70ad.

If you mean "Babylon" in Revelation, see the "great city" part of post #142 above.

LittleLambofJesus said in post #187:

In Revelation 9, it shows the 70ad Jews are tormented 5 months.

Note that Revelation 9 has never been fulfilled. See the "locusts" part of post #117 above.

LittleLambofJesus said in post #187:

Revelation 1

1 An-uncovering of Jesus Christ, which gives to Him, the GOD, to show to the bond-servants of Him, which-things is binding to be becoming In Swiftness<5034>.

See the "Revelation 1:1" part of post #101 above. Also, see post #179 above.

LittleLambofJesus said in post #187:

I had read Revelation 6:6 denotes "famine" . . .

Note that Revelation 6:4-8 has never been fulfilled. See the "Revelation 6:4" part of post #103 above. Also, see post #4 above.

*******

LittleLambofJesus said in post #188:

Mat 24:16
“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

See the "Judaea" part of post #55 above.
 
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Note that the total amount of suffering by hundreds of millions of people during World War II was orders of magnitude greater than 70 AD.

Matthew 24:21 does not at all refer to the number of those who experience tribulation, but to its causes i.e. “things that distress”.

From BibleHub:

3173 [e]
megalē
μεγάλη ,
great
Adj-NFS

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 3173: μέγας
1d. of other things that distress: ἀνάγκη, Luke 21:23; (θλῖψις, Matthew 24:21;

“Things that distress” in 70 AD included mass crucifixions and eviscerations.

Therefore, in considering WW2, a legitimate and valid comparison would be to take the population of 70 AD Jerusalem who, and whose numbers, would be most representative of their tribulation, and compare it to an equal number of those commensurately representative of WW2's tribulation, e.g. those of the Jewish community in Germany.

There were no crucifixions at all (save possibly one) in the WW2 Jewish community; and no credible record of mass eviscerations. Suffering by gas or bullet would not approach that of crucifixion or evisceration.

The tribulation of a representative population from 70 AD unquestionably exceeded the tribulation of a representative population from WW2.

Have you cited someone who claims that 70 AD was worse than World War II?

Here is an account of 70 AD by a contemporary recognized Jewish historian. He identifies it as a holocaust. He states, "The cruelties inflicted by the Romans and the rebels within the walls compare with some of the worst atrocities of the 20th century." He doesn't say that "World War II was much worse".

Still awaiting your citation of a credible recognized source who does.

But note that the total amount of suffering in the Flood exceeded 70 AD because of the much greater number of people involved in the Flood.

Matthew 24:21 does not refer to numbers, the suffering of crucifixion or evisceration is greater than that of drowning, and the cumulative suffering of a representative population from 70 AD was greater than that of an equal population from the Flood.

Also, how many Christians were crucified in Rome in 64 AD, and in later persecutions of the Church by the Romans, which persecution went on for centuries? Also, note that Christians who were crucified in Rome in 64 AD were also set on fire while they were still alive on their crosses. There is no more painful death than burning.

Matthew 24:21 does not refer to numbers or durations.

Tacitus:
"Besides being put to death they were made to serve as objects of amusement; they were clothed in the hides of beasts and torn to death by dogs; others were crucified, others set on fire to serve to illuminate the night when daylight failed."

There is no historical record of Christians being set afire while on crosses.

There is no more painful death than burning.

Do you know of someone who has experienced death on separate occasions from crucifixion and burning, returned from both, and reported the latter to be more painful than the former?

Compared to crucifixion, the relatively brief suffering of burning does not equal the cumulative suffering of a crucifixion, which can last for up to several days.

Also, note that what happened to the Jews in 70 AD was later dwarfed by the horrible and unprecedented Holocaust.

70 AD was unprecedented and unsurpassed. There were no mass crucifixions or eviscerations of a representative (or any) WW2 Holocaust population.

And neither did Luther, even though he too was fallible.

When did he claim he wasn't?

Regarding Revelation, unlike fantasy futurism, he was honest enough to concede his lack of understanding, rather than engage in interpretation by imagination.

Are you fallible?

Note that Sodom and Gomorrah was a worse desolation.

The term is never applied to Sodom and Gomorrah, so how could it be "worse"?
Define "worse" and "desolation".
Destruction by fire was in fact far better because no rotting corpses remained.


Matthew Henry leaves no doubt that he recognized the cited portions of Matthew 24 to have been historically fulfilled.

Next:

The choice:

Bible2+: "No part of Matthew 24 has ever been fulfilled"

John Wesley
Matthew 24:16

Then let them who are in Judea flee to the mountains - So the Christians did, and were preserved. It is remarkable that after the Romans under Cestus Gallus made their first advances toward Jerusalem, they suddenly withdrew again, in a most unexpected and indeed impolitic manner. This the Christians took as a signal to retire, which they did, some to Pella, and others to Mount Libanus.


Easy decision.
 
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jgr said in post #191:

Matthew 24:21 does not at all refer to the number of those who experience tribulation, but to its causes i.e. “things that distress”.

Note that Matthew 24:21 refers to tribulation (distress) experienced by people. So if more people experience tribulation, then the total amount of tribulation (distress) is bigger.

jgr said in post #191:

From BibleHub:

3173 [e]
megale
[Greek word]
great
Adj-NFS

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 3173: megas
1d. of other things that distress: anagke , Luke 21:23; (thlipsis Matthew 24:21;

Note that "great"/"megas" (G3173) simply means "big" (Strong's Greek Dictionary).

And "tribulation"/"thlipsis" (G2347) means "pressure" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), and can be translated as "affliction" (Mark 13:19).

So the "great tribulation" of Matthew 24:21 means "big affliction", in the sense of a great amount of affliction.

For anything referred to as being "great" (megas: G3173) can mean that it is great in amount, like the "great joy" in Matthew 2:10 means a great amount of joy, and the "great light" in Matthew 4:16 means a great amount of light, and the "great faith" in Matthew 15:28 means a great amount of faith.

jgr said in post #191:

“Things that distress” in 70 AD included mass crucifixions and eviscerations.

Note that neither were unprecedented or unsurpassed.

Nor does Matthew 24:21 refer to distress caused by either.

jgr said in post #191:

Therefore, in considering WW2, a legitimate and valid comparison would be to take the population of 70 AD Jerusalem who, and whose numbers, would be most representative of their tribulation, and compare it to an equal number of those commensurately representative of WW2's tribulation, e.g. those of the Jewish community in Germany.

There were no crucifixions at all (save possibly one) in the WW2 Jewish community; and no credible record of mass eviscerations. Suffering by gas or bullet would not approach that of crucifixion or evisceration.

The tribulation of a representative population from 70 AD unquestionably exceeded the tribulation of a representative population from WW2.

Note that we need to take the total population under distress. So the total amount of distress experienced by humans during World War II far exceeded the total amount of distress of 70 AD.

jgr said in post #191:

Here is an account of 70 AD by a contemporary recognized Jewish historian. He identifies it as a holocaust. He states, "The cruelties inflicted by the Romans and the rebels within the walls compare with some of the worst atrocities of the 20th century." He doesn't say that "World War II was much worse".

Note that he doesn't say that 70 AD was worse than World War II.

He simply says that the cruelties of the former "compared" with those of the latter.

jgr said in post #191:

He doesn't say that "World War II was much worse".

Still awaiting your citation of a credible recognized source who does.

Do you have a citation which says that 70 AD was worse than World War II?

jgr said in post #191:

Matthew 24:21 does not refer to numbers, the suffering of crucifixion or evisceration is greater than that of drowning, and the cumulative suffering of a representative population from 70 AD was greater than that of an equal population from the Flood.

Note that there was a greater total amount of suffering in the Flood due to the greater amount of people who suffered in it.

jgr said in post #191:

Matthew 24:21 does not refer to numbers or durations.

Tacitus:
"Besides being put to death they were made to serve as objects of amusement; they were clothed in the hides of beasts and torn to death by dogs; others were crucified, others set on fire to serve to illuminate the night when daylight failed."

There is no historical record of Christians being set afire while on crosses.

That is how they illuminated the night.

Also, the quote from Tacitus shows that 70 AD was not unprecedented.

jgr said in post #191:

Do you know of someone who has experienced death on separate occasions from crucifixion and burning, returned from both, and reported the latter to be more painful than the former?

Compared to crucifixion, the relatively brief suffering of burning does not equal the cumulative suffering of a crucifixion, which can last for up to several days.

Then you are talking about the total amount of suffering?

If so, note that the total amount of suffering in World War II was far greater than in 70 AD.

jgr said in post #191:

70 AD was unprecedented and unsurpassed.

In what way?

jgr said in post #191:

There were no mass crucifixions or eviscerations of a representative (or any) WW2 Holocaust population.

Note that there did not need to be in order for the total amount of suffering in the Holocaust to far exceed that in 70 AD.

jgr said in post #191:

[Re: Luther being fallible]

When did he claim he wasn't?

When was it said that he did?

But because he was fallible, we should take his comments regarding scripture with a grain of salt.

For example, he called the book of James "an epistle of straw" because James 2:24 contradicted his pronouncements.

Other people try to get around James 2:24 by saying that it is referring only to justification before men.

But this is not the case, for the issue in James 2:14-24 is how Christians are to be saved from hell (James 2:14b), how they are to be justified before God (James 2:23-24), just as the issue in Romans 4:1-5 is how Christians are to be saved from hell, how they are to be justified before God (cf. Romans 5:9, Romans 1:16). That is why both James 2:23-24 and Romans 4:1-5 employ the same Old Testament verse (Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:3, James 2:23). Romans 4:1-5 refers to initial salvation/justification before God, which is based on faith without any works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5), while James 2:23-24 refers to ultimate salvation/justification before God, which is based on both faith and works (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9; 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14; 1 John 2:17b), as in works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law).

jgr said in post #191:

[Re: Luther]

Regarding Revelation, unlike fantasy futurism, he was honest enough to concede his lack of understanding, rather than engage in interpretation by imagination.

Note that preterists and historicists must employ huge amounts of interpretation by imagination in order to claim that the Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 has already been fulfilled.

jgr said in post #191:

Are you fallible?

Yes, but the Bible is not (2 Timothy 3:16-17). And it says that Jesus Christ must return immediately after the Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). But His return has not occurred. Therefore, the Tribulation cannot have occurred.

jgr said in post #191:

[Re: Sodom and Gomorrah was a worse desolation]

The term is never applied to Sodom and Gomorrah, so how could it be "worse"?

Define "worse" and "desolation".

Worse means bad to a greater degree.

Desolation means devastation.

jgr said in post #191:

Destruction by fire was in fact far better because no rotting corpses remained.

Wasn't Jerusalem destroyed by fire?

Also, how do you know that no corpses remained after Sodom and Gomorrah's destruction?

For compare how at another time when some people were devoured by fire (Leviticus 10:2), their corpses remained in existence (Leviticus 10:5).

jgr said in post #191:

Matthew Henry leaves no doubt that he recognized the cited portions of Matthew 24 to have been historically fulfilled.

But they weren't, for the reasons given in reply, in the "Matthew Henry" part of post #189 above.

jgr said in post #191:

John Wesley
Matthew 24:16

Then let them who are in Judea flee to the mountains - So the Christians did, and were preserved. It is remarkable that after the Romans under Cestus Gallus made their first advances toward Jerusalem, they suddenly withdrew again, in a most unexpected and indeed impolitic manner. This the Christians took as a signal to retire, which they did, some to Pella, and others to Mount Libanus.

See the "Judaea" part of post #55 above.

Also, note that Matthew 24:16 was not fulfilled in 70 AD because Matthew 24:29-31 was not.

Also, for an example of how the Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Luke 21 was not fulfilled, see Luke 21:25-26.

And the never-fulfilled Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Luke 21 is the same as the never-fulfilled Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18.

For an example of how the Tribulation has never been fulfilled, note that "beasts" can refer figuratively to men (Titus 1:12). And Revelation uses a Greek masculine-pronoun "him" to refer to its beast (Revelation 13:8) when it is referring to the individual "man" (Revelation 13:18) aspect of its beast, commonly called the Antichrist, who will fulfill, for example, the never-fulfilled Revelation 13:4-18.

And a second aspect of Revelation's beast is that it is a powerful fallen angel (referred to with a Greek masculine-pronoun "he" in Revelation 17:11), who is now literally in the Bottomless Pit, and will ascend from it during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 to spiritually empower the empire of the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 17:8-11), empire being a third aspect of the beast, represented by the animal symbols of Revelation 13:1-2. The fallen-angel aspect of the beast could be the angelic prince whom Satan assigned to spiritually empower the ancient empire of Babylon, just as Satan assigned other fallen angelic princes to spiritually empower the subsequent ancient empires of Persia and Greece (Daniel 10:13,20). When the ancient empire of Babylon was defeated, the fallen angelic prince empowering it could have been cast into the Bottomless Pit. This same fallen angel could be released to empower a revival of the empire of Babylon, during the future Antichrist's literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (of Revelation 13:5-18).

The release of the powerful fallen angelic prince of Babylon from the Bottomless Pit could occur at the same time as the unbinding of four other powerful fallen angels who are now bound in the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14b). They could have been bound there at the fall of the ancient empire of Babylon. The binding of a stone to a prophetic scroll (written down by the prophet Jeremiah) about the fall of the ancient empire of Babylon, and the casting of the scroll into the Euphrates to sink down to the bottom (Jeremiah 51:63-64), could have been a symbolic act which included a representation of the binding of the four powerful fallen angels, and their being cast into the Euphrates to sink down to the bottom.

When these four fallen angels are released at one point during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, they will cause an army of 200 million strange horse-like beings to kill one-third of mankind (Revelation 9:15-19). This could be done to make mankind completely desperate before its takeover by Satan and the Antichrist mid-tribulation, when Satan and his fallen angels will be cast down from heaven to the earth permanently, after losing a mid-tribulation war in heaven (Revelation 12:7 to 13:18).
 
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Note that Matthew 24:21 refers to tribulation (distress) experienced by people. So if more people experience tribulation, then the total amount of tribulation (distress) is bigger.
Note that "great"/"megas" (G3173) simply means "big" (Strong's Greek Dictionary).

And "tribulation"/"thlipsis" (G2347) means "pressure" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), and can be translated as "affliction" (Mark 13:19).

So the "great tribulation" of Matthew 24:21 means "big affliction", in the sense of a great amount of affliction.

For anything referred to as being "great" (megas: G3173) can mean that it is great in amount, like the "great joy" in Matthew 2:10 means a great amount of joy, and the "great light" in Matthew 4:16 means a great amount of light, and the "great faith" in Matthew 15:28 means a great amount of faith.

No reference at all to people, or to the amount of tribulation, in Matthew 24:21. Thayer specifically and intentionally categorized “great” as referring to “other things that distress” i.e. things that cause tribulation.

Nor does Matthew 24:21 refer to distress caused by either.

Yet they occurred, in addition to various "other things that cause distress".

Note that we need to take the total population under distress. So the total amount of distress experienced by humans during World War II far exceeded the total amount of distress of 70 AD.

The only legitimate comparison is a comparison of equal numbers in representative populations.

Do you have a citation which says that 70 AD was worse than World War II?

“There have been, of course, other periods of tribulation or suffering in which greater numbers of people were involved. and which continued for longer periods of time. But considering the physical, moral, and religious aspects, suffering never reached a greater degree of awfulness and intensity than in the siege of Jerusalem.”

Loraine Boettner, The Millennium, p. 202

If you disagree with Boettner and continue to believe that “World War II was much worse”, then you should be able to cite a source of equal or greater recognition and credibility (e.g. from Wikipedia) compared to Boettner, who agrees with you.

Note that there was a greater total amount of suffering in the Flood due to the greater amount of people who suffered in it.

In a comparison of representative populations, the suffering of 70 AD exceeded that of the flood.

That is how they illuminated the night.

Not by those on crosses.

Also, the quote from Tacitus shows that 70 AD was not unprecedented.

No mention of mass crucifixions of hundreds per day with multiple victims per cross, mass eviscerations, mass starvation, internecine killings, divine judgment, et al.

Note that there did not need to be in order for the total amount of suffering in the Holocaust to far exceed that in 70 AD.

See Boettner above.

But because he was fallible, we should take his comments regarding scripture with a grain of salt.

Shouldn't we do the same with everyone, yourself included?

Wasn't Jerusalem destroyed by fire?

Corpses were thrown into the Kidron valley and the Valley of Hinnom.

Also, how do you know that no corpses remained after Sodom and Gomorrah's destruction?

You don't think God did a complete job?

John Wesley leaves no doubt that he recognized the cited portions of Matthew 24 to have been historically fulfilled.

Next:

The choice:

Bible2+: "No part of Matthew 24 has ever been fulfilled"

Charles Spurgeon

Matthew 24:15-18
This portion of our Savior’s words appears to relate solely to the destruction of Jerusalem. As soon as Christ’s disciples saw “the abomination of desolation,” that is, the Roman ensigns with their idolatrous emblems, “stand in the holy place,” they knew that the time for them to escape had arrived—and they did “flee into the mountains.” The Christians in Jerusalem and the surrounding towns and villages “in Judaea,” availed themselves of the first opportunity for eluding the Roman armies, and fled to the mountain city of Pella, in Perea, where they were preserved from the general destruction which overthrew the Jews. There was no time to spare before the final investment of the guilty city. The man “on the housetop” could “not come down to take anything out of his house,” and the man “in the field” could not “return back to take his clothes.” They must flee to the mountains in the greatest haste, the moment that they saw “Jerusalem compassed with armies” (Luke 21:20).


Easy decision.
 
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jgr said in post #193:

No reference at all to people, or to the amount of tribulation, in Matthew 24:21.

Note that Matthew 24:21 refers to the amount of tribulation which people will experience in our future. And this will be so "great", and involve so much death, that if the future Tribulation had not been shortened by God, no flesh would survive on the earth (Matthew 24:22).

jgr said in post #193:

Thayer specifically and intentionally categorized “great” as referring to “other things that distress” i.e. things that cause tribulation.

Note that the future Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will involve things that cause great tribulation for people. Such as war, famines, pestilence, etc. (Revelation 6:4-8, Matthew 24:7).

jgr said in post #193:

[Re: Matthew 24:21 doesn't refer to distress caused by crucifixion or evisceration]

Yet they occurred, in addition to various "other things that cause distress".

Note that if crucifixion or evisceration occurred in 70 AD, that does not fulfill Matthew 24:21. For neither was unprecedented nor unsurpassed.

Also, the Second Coming has to occur immediately after the Tribulation of Matthew 24:21 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

jgr said in post #193:

[Re: Comparing World War II with 70 AD]

The only legitimate comparison is a comparison of equal numbers in representative populations.

Note that the only legitimate comparison is what is experienced by the people of all nations. For both Luke 21 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 show that the future Tribulation will affect the entire world (Luke 21:25-26, Revelation 13:7-18).

jgr said in post #193:

“There have been, of course, other periods of tribulation or suffering in which greater numbers of people were involved. and which continued for longer periods of time. But considering the physical, moral, and religious aspects, suffering never reached a greater degree of awfulness and intensity than in the siege of Jerusalem.”

Loraine Boettner, The Millennium, p. 202

Note that it had reached the same degree for the Christians in Rome in 64 AD, as it did subsequently for the Jews in the Holocaust.

Also, note that Matthew 24:21 refers to the total amount of suffering, not to its intensity over a short time.

jgr said in post #193:

If you disagree with Boettner and continue to believe that “World War II was much worse”, then you should be able to cite a source of equal or greater recognition and credibility (e.g. from Wikipedia) compared to Boettner, who agrees with you.

Note that it's just common sense that if hundreds of millions of people suffered for years during World War II, then their total amount of suffering exceeded the total amount of suffering by 1 million people in 70 AD, and by orders of magnitude.

jgr said in post #193:

In a comparison of representative populations, the suffering of 70 AD exceeded that of the flood.

Note that the entire populations affected must be compared.

jgr said in post #193:

[Re: That is how those Christians set on fire in 64 AD illuminated the night]

Not by those on crosses.

Yes, they were set alight as torches lining the roadways.

jgr said in post #193:

[Re: The quote from Tacitus shows that 70 AD was not unprecedented]

No mention of mass crucifixions of hundreds per day with multiple victims per cross, mass eviscerations, mass starvation, internecine killings, divine judgment, et al.

Regarding mass crucifixions, how many Christians were crucified in Rome in 64 AD, and in later persecutions of the Church by the Romans, which persecution went on for centuries?

Regarding mass eviscerations, how many are you talking about? And how many people were "drawn and quartered" by the English during past centuries? And how many people were impaled on sharp spikes by the ancient Assyrians as they conquered the Middle East?

Regarding mass starvation, where in 70 AD were the numbers of people involved in the subsequent Great Chinese Famine or the Bengal Famine?

Regarding internecine killings, where in 70 AD was the horror of the American Civil War, when Americans used their weapons against their fellow Americans, resulting in some 600,000 casualties? And even long before 70 AD, the Jews had their own, huge civil war between their northern kingdom (Israel) and their southern kingdom (Judah) which went on for some 200 years (from about 922 BC to 722 BC) and involved battles in which as many as 500,000 Jews were slaughtered by their fellow Jews (2 Chronicles 13:16-18; cf. also 2 Chronicles 28:6).

Regarding divine judgment, where in 70 AD were the numbers of people involved in the Flood?

Note that it is clear from history that 70 AD was neither unprecedented nor unsurpassed. And so it cannot be the fulfillment of Matthew 24:21.

jgr said in post #193:

[Re: The total amount of suffering in the Holocaust far exceeded that in 70 AD]

See Boettner above.

Note that he does not disagree.

jgr said in post #193:

[Re: We should take Luther's comments regarding scripture with a grain of salt]

Shouldn't we do the same with everyone, yourself included?

Of course. But much more with regard to him. For he rejected whole books of the Bible (James and Revelation). For he placed his theology above the Bible.

Also, he was a notorious anti-Semite.

But we must not be anti-Semitic. For Jesus Christ's Gospel of salvation goes to Jews first (Romans 1:16, Matthew 10:5-6, Matthew 15:24, Acts 3:26, Romans 15:8), and salvation is of the Jews (John 4:22b), because salvation is of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which God has made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34). Christian Gentiles are grafted into Israel so that they can partake of the salvation offered by God to Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16). And all Christians, whether Jews (Acts 22:3) or Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

jgr said in post #193:

[Re: 70 AD]

Corpses were thrown into the Kidron valley and the Valley of Hinnom.

The same thing happened in 586 BC.

"Hinnom" is the name of the person after whose son the "valley of the son of Hinnom", on the south side of Jerusalem, was named (Joshua 15:8). At the destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon in 586 BC, in the time of the prophet Jeremiah, this valley became representative of God's awful judgment, as it was where masses of dead bodies were cast unburied to rot out in the open for all to see (Jeremiah 7:32-34). Decades later, after the Jews returned (in 538 BC) from their Babylonian captivity, the valley became a garbage dump, where fires were set to try to burn up the garbage, so that smoke continually rose up from the valley.

These two images of a valley filled with rotting corpses by the judgment of God (cf. Isaiah 66:24), and fires with smoke continually rising (cf. Revelation 14:11) came together in the minds of the Jews to where the valley of Hinnom came to represent the future, eternal hell itself. This is why the name "Gehenna" (or "Ge-Hinnom"), "geenna" in the original Greek, is used in the Bible to refer to the future, eternal hell (Mark 9:45-46). "Geenna" (G1067, pronounced gheh'-en-nah) is derived from the Hebrew words for "valley" (gay: H1516, pronounced gah'-ee) and "Hinnom" (H2011, pronounced hin-nome').

jgr said in post #193:

[Re: Corpses remaining after Sodom and Gomorrah's destruction]

You don't think God did a complete job?

Complete in what way?

For note that even the eternal hell will not involve the annihilation of the bodies of the unsaved. But God's judgment against them will still be complete.

For what is eternally punishing (Matthew 25:46, Revelation 14:10-11) about the future, "Gehenna" hell (Luke 12:5, Greek) is fire eternally burning the physical body, and worms eternally eating the physical body (Mark 9:46, Isaiah 66:24). The physical bodies of non-Christians in Gehenna need not be exactly like people have now, which do not regenerate parts of themselves if those parts are burned or eaten. For before non-Christians are cast into the Gehenna hell (also called the lake of fire), they will be physically resurrected (Revelation 20:12-15, John 5:29b). And their new, physical resurrection bodies could eternally regenerate parts of themselves whenever those parts are burned or eaten. But then the regenerated parts could be burned or eaten again, only to regenerate again, only to be burned or eaten again, and so on, forever: an everlasting suffering (Revelation 14:10-11).

In Gehenna the fire will never go out (Mark 9:46). It will never run out of fuel, but will continue to punish non-Christians forever (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 14:10-11, Revelation 20:10,15). The fact that the fire will already be burning before the physical resurrection bodies of non-Christians are cast into it (Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15) means that their bodies will not be the fire's fuel. The fire will have its own source of fuel by which it will burn/punish non-Christians forever (Revelation 14:10-11, Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45-46).

jgr said in post #193:

John Wesley leaves no doubt that he recognized the cited portions of Matthew 24 to have been historically fulfilled.

But note that he was mistaken, for the reasons given in reply, in the "Wesley" part of post #192 above.

jgr said in post #193:

Charles Spurgeon

Matthew 24:15-18
This portion of our Savior’s words appears to relate solely to the destruction of Jerusalem.

Note that it didn't, because it referred to the same, never-fulfilled time as Matthew 24:21-31.

Please show how each of these verses was fulfilled in 70 AD.

jgr quoted Spurgeon in post #193:

As soon as Christ’s disciples saw “the abomination of desolation,” that is, the Roman ensigns with their idolatrous emblems, “stand in the holy place,” . . .

Note that the Romans never fulfilled the abomination of desolation.

See the "abomination of desolation" part of post #55 above.

jgr quoted Spurgeon in post #193:

They must flee to the mountains in the greatest haste, the moment that they saw “Jerusalem compassed with armies” (Luke 21:20).

See the "Luke 21:20" part of post #156 above. Also, see the "Luke 21:24" part of post #115 above.

jgr said in post #193:

Easy decision.

For those who have ceased from men (Isaiah 2:22).

For the Bible makes clear that the Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 has never happened, just as Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19:7 to 20:6 has never happened.

For an example of how the Tribulation remains unfulfilled, note that Revelation 13:7-10 shows that the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), during his literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10), will be allowed to physically overcome Biblical Christians in every nation (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), just as, for example, the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome some Biblical Christians in the first century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10). There are no Biblical Christians outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

But Revelation 13:7-10 does not mean that every person in the Church will be overcome by the future Antichrist. For some in the Church will be in God-protected wilderness places (Revelation 12:6,14-16). And so they will still be "alive and remain" on the earth at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), immediately after the Tribulation (Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
 
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Note that Matthew 24:21 refers to the amount of tribulation which people will experience in our future.

Matthew 24:21 says nothing about the “amount” of tribulation, but rather refers to the causes of tribulation (“other things that distress” ), according to Thayer's categorization.

Note that if crucifixion or evisceration occurred in 70 AD, that does not fulfill Matthew 24:21. For neither was unprecedented nor unsurpassed.

They were and are unprecedented and unsurpassed before and since 70 AD.

Note that the only legitimate comparison is what is experienced by the people of all nations.

The only legitimate comparison is a comparison of equal numbers in representative populations.

Note that it had reached the same degree for the Christians in Rome in 64 AD, as it did subsequently for the Jews in the Holocaust.

Citation?

Note that it's just common sense that if hundreds of millions of people suffered for years during World War II, then their total amount of suffering exceeded the total amount of suffering by 1 million people in 70 AD, and by orders of magnitude.

Then there should be no problem producing a confirming citation from a recognized credible source.

Yes, they were set alight as torches lining the roadways.

Not on the crosses.

Note that he does not disagree.

"But considering the physical, moral, and religious aspects, suffering never reached a greater degree of awfulness and intensity than in the siege of Jerusalem." (Loraine Boettner, The Millennium, p. 202)

Let's ask. Bro. Boettner went to his reward some years ago, but there might be a son or daughter who would be willing to answer the question: "Which did your dad believe was worse, 70 AD or WW2?".

Do you want to ask first, or should I?

Of course. But much more with regard to him. For he rejected whole books of the Bible (James and Revelation). For he placed his theology above the Bible.

Also, he was a notorious anti-Semite.

If Luther's faults and failings outweigh his contributions to the true faith, then he should be expunged from Christianity's annals. What actions have you taken to bring that about?

"Anti-Semite" is an absurdly misused mischaracterization which is unable to distinguish between race and religion. Luther was anti-Judaic, not anti-Semitic:

"We want to deal with them in a Christian manner now. Offer them the Christian faith that they would accept the Messiah, who is even their cousin and has been born of their flesh and blood; and is rightly Abraham’s Seed, of which they boast." Weimar Ausgabe 51:194–196; J.G. Walch, Dr. Martin Luthers Sämmtliche Schriften, 23 vols. (St. Louis: Concordia, 1883), 12:1264–1267.

"However, if they are converted, abandon their usury, and receive Christ, then we will willingly regard them our brothers." (Ibid)

"Yet, we will show them Christian love and pray for them that they may be converted to receive the Lord, whom they should honor properly before us." (Ibid)


Luther openly sought the conversion of Judaists irrespective of race.


Charles Spurgeon leaves no doubt that he recognized the cited portions of Matthew 24 to have been historically fulfilled.


Well, there you have it, folks.

The choice:

One lone armchair hyperfuturist unable to produce a single citation from a single credible recognized source to support his claim:

"No part of Matthew 24 has ever been fulfilled"

vs.

Ten stalwart recognized acclaimed defenders of the true faith over a period of more than eighteen centuries of New Testament Church history who are unanimous:

“Various portions of Matthew 24 have been historically fulfilled”


Very easy decision.
 
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jgr said in post #195:

Matthew 24:21 says nothing about the “amount” of tribulation . . .

Note that it does, for "great"/"megas" (G3173) simply means "big" (Strong's Greek Dictionary). And anything referred to as being "great" (megas: G3173) can mean that it is great in amount, like the "great joy" in Matthew 2:10 means a great amount of joy, and the "great light" in Matthew 4:16 means a great amount of light, and the "great faith" in Matthew 15:28 means a great amount of faith.

jgr said in post #195:

[Re: Crucifixions and eviscerations]

They were and are unprecedented and unsurpassed before and since 70 AD.

Note that they weren't and aren't. For how many Christians were crucified in Rome in 64 AD, and in later persecutions of the Church by the Romans, which persecution went on for centuries? And how many people were "drawn and quartered" by the English during past centuries? And how many people were impaled on sharp spikes by the ancient Assyrians as they conquered the Middle East?

jgr said in post #195:

The only legitimate comparison is a comparison of equal numbers in representative populations.

Note that the only legitimate comparison is a comparison of the entire populations which suffered past tribulations. For the future Tribulation will affect the entire world (Luke 21:25-26, Revelation 13:7-18).

jgr said in post #195:

[Re: The suffering of 70 AD had reached the same degree for the Christians in Rome in 64 AD, as it did subsequently for the Jews in the Holocaust]

Citation?

Your quote from Tacitus, and the quote from the man who claimed that the cruelties of 70 AD "compared" with the Holocaust.

jgr said in post #195:

[Re: It's just common sense that the total amount of suffering in World War II was more than in 70 AD]

Then there should be no problem producing a confirming citation from a recognized credible source.

Not if it's common sense.

Also, have you cited someone who claims that the total amount of suffering in World War II was less than in 70 AD?

jgr said in post #195:

[Re: Christians in 64 AD Rome were set alight as torches lining the roadways]

Not on the crosses.

Yes, on their crosses, so that they were like torches lining the road.

jgr said in post #195:

"But considering the physical, moral, and religious aspects, suffering never reached a greater degree of awfulness and intensity than in the siege of Jerusalem." (Loraine Boettner, The Millennium, p. 202)

Note that he does not refer to the total amount of suffering. And even his claim is unsupported. For example, nothing requires that 70 AD was any worse in awfulness and intensity than 586 BC or 722 BC.

jgr said in post #195:

If Luther's faults and failings outweigh his contributions to the true faith, then he should be expunged from Christianity's annals.

No, for no annals should ever be expunged. What happened happened.

jgr said in post #195:

Luther was anti-Judaic, not anti-Semitic:

Note that we must not be anti-Judaic (Romans 11:28).

jgr said in post #195:

Charles Spurgeon leaves no doubt that he recognized the cited portions of Matthew 24 to have been historically fulfilled.

But he was mistaken, as was shown in the reply, in the "Spurgeon" part of post #194 above.

jgr said in post #195:

One lone armchair hyperfuturist unable to produce a single citation from a single credible recognized source to support his claim:

"No part of Matthew 24 has ever been fulfilled"

Note that what has been cited is the Bible, not fallible humans. And the Bible makes clear that Jesus Christ's Second Coming must occur immediately after the Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Because the Second Coming has never occurred, the Tribulation cannot have occurred.

jgr said in post #195:

Very easy decision.

For those who have ceased from men (Isaiah 2:22).

Also, for an example of how the Tribulation has never happened, note that just as the future Antichrist could make a worldwide, live-television and internet spectacle out of his fulfilling of 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Daniel 11:36, so his False Prophet could make a worldwide, live-television and internet spectacle out of his fulfilling of Revelation 13:13, when he will miraculously call fire down from heaven in the sight of everyone. He could do this as a Satanic inversion of 1 Kings 18:19-40. For example, he could gather all of the most prominent leaders of the Christian community worldwide to the Champ de Mars (Mars being the same as Marduk the dragon, the chief god of ancient Babylon). The Champ de Mars is the large, open area in front of the Eiffel Tower in Paris. The False Prophet could then tell the gathered Christian leaders to pray to YHWH God to send fire down and destroy the Tower.

And when the Christian leaders pray, and YHWH does not do anything (by His own choice), the False Prophet could then pray to Lucifer (the dragon, Satan: Revelation 12:9, Revelation 13:4) to send fire down and destroy the Tower. And Lucifer/Satan could do so (allowed to do so by YHWH), so that 1 Kings 18:38-40 will be turned on its head, so that news reporters could write (in their words) "Then the fire of Lucifer fell, and consumed the Eiffel Tower. And when all of the people saw it, they fell on their faces. And they said, 'Lucifer is God, Lucifer is God'. And the True Prophet said to them: 'Take these men of YHWH! Let not one of them escape!' And they took them. And the True Prophet brought them down to the river Seine, and slew them there" (as a Satanic inversion of 1 Kings 18:38-40).

But would YHWH God really let something like this happen? Would he let Christians pray to Him to send fire down from heaven, but decline to do so, while allowing Satan to send fire down at the beck of the False Prophet? Yes, YHWH could let this happen, as a test to Christians, to see if they love signs and wonders more than YHWH (cf. Deuteronomy 13:1-3). Christians must always remember that not all signs and wonders are from the true God, that Satan can also give people the power to perform them (e.g. 2 Thessalonians 2:9), to deceive people (Matthew 24:24-25, Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20).

The way not to be deceived is to continue to believe everything that the Bible teaches is from God (John 8:31b, Matthew 4:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), no matter how amazing the miracles are of someone who teaches something which contradicts the Bible (Matthew 24:24; 1 Timothy 4:1). And the way to continue to believe everything that the Bible teaches is from God is not to continue in any unrepentant sin. For otherwise our conscience could become seared as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where we could no longer endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, but after our own lusts heap to ourselves teachers who teach us fables which help to support us in our lusts (2 Timothy 4:3-4), to where we could even become willing to depart from the Christian faith itself, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1).
 
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jgr

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Note that it does, for "great"/"megas" (G3173) simply means "big" (Strong's Greek Dictionary). And anything referred to as being "great" (megas: G3173) can mean that it is great in amount, like the "great joy" in Matthew 2:10 means a great amount of joy, and the "great light" in Matthew 4:16 means a great amount of light, and the "great faith" in Matthew 15:28 means a great amount of faith.



Note that they weren't and aren't. For how many Christians were crucified in Rome in 64 AD, and in later persecutions of the Church by the Romans, which persecution went on for centuries? And how many people were "drawn and quartered" by the English during past centuries? And how many people were impaled on sharp spikes by the ancient Assyrians as they conquered the Middle East?



Note that the only legitimate comparison is a comparison of the entire populations which suffered past tribulations. For the future Tribulation will affect the entire world (Luke 21:25-26, Revelation 13:7-18).



Your quote from Tacitus, and the quote from the man who claimed that the cruelties of 70 AD "compared" with the Holocaust.



Not if it's common sense.

Also, have you cited someone who claims that the total amount of suffering in World War II was less than in 70 AD?



Yes, on their crosses, so that they were like torches lining the road.



Note that he does not refer to the total amount of suffering. And even his claim is unsupported. For example, nothing requires that 70 AD was any worse in awfulness and intensity than 586 BC or 722 BC.



No, for no annals should ever be expunged. What happened happened.



Note that we must not be anti-Judaic (Romans 11:28).



But he was mistaken, as was shown in the reply, in the "Spurgeon" part of post #194 above.



Note that what has been cited is the Bible, not fallible humans. And the Bible makes clear that Jesus Christ's Second Coming must occur immediately after the Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Because the Second Coming has never occurred, the Tribulation cannot have occurred.



For those who have ceased from men (Isaiah 2:22).

Also, for an example of how the Tribulation has never happened, note that just as the future Antichrist could make a worldwide, live-television and internet spectacle out of his fulfilling of 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Daniel 11:36, so his False Prophet could make a worldwide, live-television and internet spectacle out of his fulfilling of Revelation 13:13, when he will miraculously call fire down from heaven in the sight of everyone. He could do this as a Satanic inversion of 1 Kings 18:19-40. For example, he could gather all of the most prominent leaders of the Christian community worldwide to the Champ de Mars (Mars being the same as Marduk the dragon, the chief god of ancient Babylon). The Champ de Mars is the large, open area in front of the Eiffel Tower in Paris. The False Prophet could then tell the gathered Christian leaders to pray to YHWH God to send fire down and destroy the Tower.

And when the Christian leaders pray, and YHWH does not do anything (by His own choice), the False Prophet could then pray to Lucifer (the dragon, Satan: Revelation 12:9, Revelation 13:4) to send fire down and destroy the Tower. And Lucifer/Satan could do so (allowed to do so by YHWH), so that 1 Kings 18:38-40 will be turned on its head, so that news reporters could write (in their words) "Then the fire of Lucifer fell, and consumed the Eiffel Tower. And when all of the people saw it, they fell on their faces. And they said, 'Lucifer is God, Lucifer is God'. And the True Prophet said to them: 'Take these men of YHWH! Let not one of them escape!' And they took them. And the True Prophet brought them down to the river Seine, and slew them there" (as a Satanic inversion of 1 Kings 18:38-40).

But would YHWH God really let something like this happen? Would he let Christians pray to Him to send fire down from heaven, but decline to do so, while allowing Satan to send fire down at the beck of the False Prophet? Yes, YHWH could let this happen, as a test to Christians, to see if they love signs and wonders more than YHWH (cf. Deuteronomy 13:1-3). Christians must always remember that not all signs and wonders are from the true God, that Satan can also give people the power to perform them (e.g. 2 Thessalonians 2:9), to deceive people (Matthew 24:24-25, Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20).

The way not to be deceived is to continue to believe everything that the Bible teaches is from God (John 8:31b, Matthew 4:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), no matter how amazing the miracles are of someone who teaches something which contradicts the Bible (Matthew 24:24; 1 Timothy 4:1). And the way to continue to believe everything that the Bible teaches is from God is not to continue in any unrepentant sin. For otherwise our conscience could become seared as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where we could no longer endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, but after our own lusts heap to ourselves teachers who teach us fables which help to support us in our lusts (2 Timothy 4:3-4), to where we could even become willing to depart from the Christian faith itself, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1).

Our readers now have sufficient information necessary to draw their own conclusions.
 
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jgr said in post #198:

[Re: We must not be anti-Judaic (Romans 11:28)]

Where does Romans 11:28 say that?

If even non-Christian, elect religious Jews are beloved by God (Romans 11:28-29), then we must love them also (cf. also Matthew 5:44-48), and not say: "Set fire to their synagogues or schools", as it is said that Luther commanded in his writing called: "On the Jews and Their Lies".
 
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keras

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Our readers now have sufficient information necessary to draw their own conclusions.
I conclude that you are wrong.
We do not know what the future holds, excepting for what the Bible prophets tell us.
If what they say has not taken place yet, then because the prophesies about Jesus's first Advent and what happened to ancient Israel and Judah, did happen as prophesied, then we can expect a future fulfillment of all those prophesies, especially those that plainly state they are for the last days.

It is obvious to anyone who is not a reclusive hermit, that there must be a change coming to the world. A change that is most likely to be dramatic and violent.
Why should we Christians not know about what God intends to do to correct the worlds civilizations, which are now, once again; as in the days of Noah.
If even non-Christian, elect religious Jews are beloved by God (Romans 11:28-29), then we must love them also (cf. also Matthew 5:44-48), and not say: "Set fire to their synagogues or schools", as it is said that Luther commanded in his writing called: "On the Jews and Their Lies".
Note; that Paul is talking to Israel in Romans 11:25-29. Not just the Jews.
Israel: the Northern ten tribes, an uncountable multitude, still scattered among the nations.
It is to them, now the Western Christian peoples, plus the few Messianic Jews and all the born again Christians, that the Promises of God belong. Galatians 3:26-29
Proved by how all the Promises of God are fulfilled thru Jesus. 2 Corinthians 1:20

The non-Christian, no longer elect, false religion; Jewish people; are no longer beloved by God.
Proved by Matthew 21:43 and many prophesies that plainly say how Judah will be Judged, punished and only a remnant will be saved. Romans 9:27

Your determination to have the Jews in the Land while the Church goes to heaven, is a total contradiction of the Prophetic Word.
 
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