I wrote:
I already addressed this. It is important to distinguish between being baptized in the Spirit, which is to be born-again into Christ (Romans 6:1-10; Romans 8:9-11; Titus 3:5; 1 John 4:13, etc.), from being merely filled by the Spirit.
Truthseek3r wrote:
None of those passages uses the expression "baptized in the Spirit", so up until this point you are just making stuff up.
I placed the Scripture references in the sentence where I did because they were offered as a basis for the claim that
being born-again is made possible only by the Spirit indwelling the believer. That's what the references were intended to support. And they do. Each reference indicates that the life of Christ imbues the born-again believer through the Holy Spirit coming to dwell within them. And it is
only as this is the case that a person may say they are truly born-again. (
Romans 8:16; 1 John 4:13) It is in the Person of the Holy Spirit that we are given new spiritual life, the life of Christ (
Romans 8:9), that makes us "new creatures in Christ." (
2 Corinthians 5:17) Until the Spirit has taken up residence within a person, they cannot not legitimately claim to be a "new creature," a born-again child of God. And this is exactly what is in evidence in the instances in Acts where folks who had been baptized by John the Baptist and told of the coming kingdom of God in Christ and believed it were still not spiritually-regenerate until the Spirit came upon them, making them temples of the living God.
John 3:5-8 (NASB)
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
So, no, I'm not "just making stuff up."
Actually, all the verses I've offered pertaining to the equivalence do very clearly establish that to be born-again necessarily requires being born of the Spirit. See the quotation from
John 3 above. If the words of Christ himself can't indicate this to you, nothing can.
It really is sad to see how far you're willing to stray from biblical truth, God's truth, in defense of your position. The more you allow this to happen, the farther you'll find yourself, not just from God's truth, but from the Author of that truth. Be very careful, brother.
I have already offered the reasoning to this conclusion in a number of my posts in this thread now. Please refer to them.
I wrote:
John 20:21-23? Had atonement been made for the disciples which was utterly necessary for their justification, sanctification, redemption and acceptance by God?
Truthseek3r wrote:
In other words, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, David, Ezekiel, Daniel, Elijah, etc. are all doomed, right?
This is what is known as a deflection. It doesn't address my point but attempts to escape it by deflecting to a red-herring. There is no New Covenant salvation except through the atoning work of Christ at Calvary. I've already offered verses which state this VERY clearly. If salvation can be obtained apart from Christ's sacrifice on the cross, why, then, did he die? You have not answered this point.
Actually, the instance in
John 20 occurs
after the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ and so, at least for the disciples on whom Jesus breathed, it appears they
might have been born-again, being given the Spirit at that time by Christ. This is a doubtful and problematic conclusion, though, in light of the Spirit coming upon them again in
Acts 2, not merely to
fill them, but, as John the Baptist prophesied (
Matthew 3:11; Luke 3:16), to
baptize them into Christ (
Romans 6:1-6) and so spiritually regenerate them permanently (
Hebrews 13:5).
But, perhaps, "filling" and "baptism"
are synonymous. Certainly, it seems very evident that they refer to overlapping events. One can't be indwelt by the Spirit and not in some sense be filled by him, too. But why use "baptism" when "filling" is what is meant (or vice versa)? Why use two different terms and cause unnecessary confusion? It seems apparent that using two different terms communicates
some difference in meaning between them.
There is no instance of a person being baptized with the Spirit in the OT, though there are many instances where the Spirit comes upon someone (judges, prophets, kings, priests), or fills them, or rests upon them. Samson is a good example (
Judges 13-16). Though the Spirit came upon him many times, empowering him in a special, supernatural way, Samson was never born-again, baptized into Christ, united by the Spirit with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection (
Romans 6:1-6) and given new spiritual life in him (
Titus 3:5; Romans 8:9-11). Samson was filled by the Spirit temporarily, enabled thereby to perform astonishing physical feats, but he was never
baptized with the Spirit into Christ, as Paul describes in
Romans 6, nor as the disciples in
Acts 2 were in fulfillment of the prophecy of John the Baptist, and made a "new creature in Christ" (
2 Corinthians 5:17) as a result.
It seems plain to me, therefore, that being filled with the Spirit, common to both OT and NT times, has nothing necessarily to do with post-Calvary, New Covenant salvation, and is distinct from the spiritual regeneration of the Spirit described as "baptism with the Spirit" by John the Baptist and the apostle Paul.
Why would the Spirit come upon those
in whom he already dwelled? You can't come again to place you already occupy; you'd have to leave first in order to come again to it.
See, this is why I think you aren't really reading and understanding my posts. This question of yours here plainly reveals you haven't actually been looking at and thinking through the references I've given to you.
Titus 3:5, 1 John 4:13, Romans 8:9-11, John 3:5-8 - these all clearly explain that spiritual regeneration, being born-again, only happens by the entrance of the Spirit into a person. It is in the Person of the Spirit that a person is placed in Christ who becomes the source for their spiritual life (
Philippians 1:21; Colossians 3:4) Belief in Christ as Saviour and Lord is the means by which the Spirit is prompted to dwell within a person and give them a spiritual "second birth." This is Christianity 101. I shouldn't have to explain any of this to a person who claims to be born-again. But if you understood these things, you wouldn't be asking me to explain why those on whom the apostles laid their hands were only truly born-again when the Spirit came upon them.