Discerning between the Holy Spirit and counterfeits (e.g. Kundalini)?

Dave L

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The atheists want a lot of proof before they can believe too, why not just believe a little in christians that tell you they witnessed healings and things the Holy spirit have done.

If a pastor shows some kind of gifts, they a 'psychic' in your eyes, or from the devil.

If a person tells you they had an ailment since they were a child and it went away from what it was like a word of science, they are probably lying or something...

If you feel the presence of God... that is fuzzy feeilngs, and physical sensations and emotions...

And God forbid God tells something to someone, you need to see the shrink right?
The gifts proved the Apostles were Apostles. They were meant to be seen. You cannot produce a shred of physical evidence to back your claims. They cannot stand up to scrutiny. Any court of law would prove it.
 
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NBB

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The gifts proved the Apostles were Apostles. They were meant to be seen. You cannot produce a shred of physical evidence to back your claims. They cannot stand up to scrutiny. Any court of law would prove it.

There is no physical evidence for what the bible says either.
Why not just believe a little what some believers say? unless they are deluded or lying they may be telling the truth when they say something happened to them.
And christians say the devil is not to be cast out these days? i'm pretty sure is he with his evil spirits who plants discord mistrust and fights between brothers.
 
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Dave L

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There is no physical evidence for what the bible says either.
Why not just believe a little what some believers say? unless they are deluded or lying they may be telling the truth when they say something happened to them.
And christians say the devil is not to be cast out these days? i'm pretty sure is he with his evil spirits who plants discord mistrust and fights between brothers.
History proves much of it. You have no proof of your unbiblical claims. In fact, history also proves you are wrong.
 
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NBB

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History proves much of it. You have no proof of your unbiblical claims. In fact, history also proves you are wrong.

Thinking there is people that suggest with what they write that i am a false witness or 'prophet' or a liar or deluded by the devil and probably lost just because i said some things God has done in my life, makes me umconfortable of posting sometimes.
 
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Dave L

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Thinking there is people that suggest with what they write that i am a false witness or 'prophet' or a liar or deluded by the devil and probably lost just because i said some things God has done in my life, makes me umconfortable of posting sometimes.
I used to believe as you do. All I'm saying is they deceived me. If you think you cannot be deceived, you are already deceived.
 
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NBB

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I used to believe as you do. All I'm saying is they deceived me. If you think you cannot be deceived, you are already deceived.

What did you believe some tiny examples that you were deluded about?
 
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Dave L

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What did you believe some tiny examples that you were deluded about?
God saved me apart from any church. From that time on I became Charismatic because they did not shun 60s people as other churches did. From there they deceived me with free will, phoney gifts of the Spirit, Dispensationalism (rapture teaching) possible loss of salvation. Divine healing (that killed over 100 people needlessly) premillennialism.... and twisted trinity doctrine..... etc. It took many years to recover.
 
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God saved me apart from any church. From that time on I became Charismatic because they did not shun 60s people as other churches did. From there they deceived me with free will, phoney gifts of the Spirit, Dispensationalism (rapture teaching) possible loss of salvation. Divine healing (that killed over 100 people needlessly) premillennialism.... and twisted trinity doctrine..... etc. It took many years to recover.

I can't sincerely say gift are not today, since i have seen what the bible would call prophecy "to edify confort" "the things of their heart will be revealed" etc, and also discernment of spirits, since you just can't cast out a spirit if you don't know its there sometimes, they hide a lot.
Also that we can get filled with the Holy spirit that is different from converting. And i will defend this because is so needed by christians. And i have experienced this.

Sorry you had a bad experience, but don't burn the forest for some bad apples on a few trees right?

About the rest, there is lots of denominations with lots of variations on that and i just don't have a strong belief or don't impact my life enough to fight for any of them.
 
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garee

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History proves much of it. You have no proof of your unbiblical claims. In fact, history also proves you are wrong.

I would agree . No such thing as a sign gift "self edifying" called Charismatic. Things of the flesh . Like do a miracle then I will believe. . exercise faith. Something the unbelieving Jew sought after making Jesus a a circus seal .

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

Signs that show the work of the unseen Spirit follow after as metaphors used in parables. Parable as prophecy teach us how to walk by faith the unseen eternal using the temporal things seen to give us the unseen gospel understanding hid from natural unconverted mankind. .

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Its deadly to try and turn it into something one would seek after. it was a one time demonstration. The poisons' of snakes simply points to false doctrine. Christian will not not be effected by it. They can with their new tongue (the gospel) cast out demons .

Its one of the difficulties with those who do not look to History. Isaiah 28 sets the foundation for the law found in 1 Corihtinans 14: 21-22.
(yet for all that they still refuse to hear the tongue of God's prophecy).

21 In the law (Isaiah 28 ) it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.


.
 
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Aussie Pete

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Based on an overwhelming amount of testimonies I've watched, I feel strongly compelled to believe that the Holy Spirit still works and manifests today. However, I'm also aware of the big controversy around certain manifestations and the potential danger of counterfeits.

For instance, revivalist movements such as the Toronto Blessing have spurred a wave of controversy around the origin of the strange manifestations observed in their services, which many believe to be caused by counterfeit spirits pretending to be the Holy Spirit. For example, Andrew Strom published an influential three-part documentary (1, 2, 3) and a book in which he argues that the observed manifestations are suspiciously similar to the symptoms reported by individuals who have undergone the so-called "Kundalini awakening".

Moreover, after watching testimonies like this one: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCB64jBvrG-9f8RWWbNSJMBg, I'm utterly convinced that counterfeit experiences such as the Kundalini awakening are a real thing.

My questions: how can we discern between genuine Holy Spirit manifestations and counterfeit ones? How can we make sure that we are filled with the Holy Spirit and nothing else?
Manifestations are real enough. The question is, what is the source? We are warned about lying signs and wonders. Lord Jesus said that even the elect could be deceived.

How to discern? The keys are found in John 16 when the Lord Jesus tells us the role of the Holy Spirit. Lord Jesus also tells us what the Holy Spirit does not do. When our small group investigated the so-called Toronto Blessing (TB is good abbreviation. It produces terrible spiritual sickness), we found that it failed both in the positive and the negative.

I also had access to two videos of the launching of the Toronto Blessing. The two men involved are well known in Christian circles. The meetings were a farce. There was nothing decent or orderly. A senior pastor was hypnotised (yes, I know exactly what that is) and ridiculed as he paraded around the stage like a rooster. The man who was leading this farce proceeded to stop the pastor from speaking, insulting him at the same time.

Let me summarise the areas where the TB falls down. First, in brief, the Holy Spirit's role
1. The Holy Spirit will take what is of Christ and make it known to believers.
2. The Holy Spirit does not initiate. He speaks according to the instruction of Lord Jesus.
3. The Holy Spirit glorifies Jesus.

Now what the TB (and similar counterfeits) do:
1. TB places great emphasis on the Holy Spirit ("Holy Spirit bartender is how one promoter described himself)
2. TB places great emphasis on signs and wonders and zero on truth and reality.
3. TB promotes false "salvation" by people responding to manifestations, not to the gospel.
4. The promoter told people not to pray or exercise any discernment. "Just drink it in. Do your praying at home". What about testing the spirits to see if they be of God?

God has determined that the whole universe should be under the rule of His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. (Ephesians 1:10) Anything that in any detracts from God's determination is to be rejected as false and the work of the enemy. We live in an age when there is too little sound teaching and too much emphasis on experiences. I believe in miracles. I also know that there is much that is counterfeit and that leads Christians astray. Sincerity is not enough. The only defence we have is truth.
 
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Dave L

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I can't sincerely say gift are not today, since i have seen what the bible would call prophecy "to edify confort" "the things of their heart will be revealed" etc, and also discernment of spirits, since you just can't cast out a spirit if you don't know its there sometimes, they hide a lot.
Also that we can get filled with the Holy spirit that is different from converting. And i will defend this because is so needed by christians. And i have experienced this.

Sorry you had a bad experience, but don't burn the forest for some bad apples on a few trees right?

About the rest, there is lots of denominations with lots of variations on that and i just don't have a strong belief or don't impact my life enough to fight for any of them.
If you wing it, you'll believe anything that suits you. If you force yourself to stick with scripture, you will spot the errors today.
 
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NBB

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If you wing it, you'll believe anything that suits you. If you force yourself to stick with scripture, you will spot the errors today.

Who says i am so little commited to the truth. I just sincerely believe some pastors showed great discerment etc to believe they at least were sensitive with the Holy spirit or had gifts.

Also that we need discernent of spirits to cast out demons, yes totally convinced.
 
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Dave L

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Who says i am so little commited to the truth. I just sincerely believe some pastors showed great discerment etc to believe they at least were sensitive with the Holy spirit or had gifts.

Also that we need discernent of spirits to cast out demons, yes totally convinced.
If scripture does not support something, you cannot have faith. Faith comes by (truthfully) hearing the word. And whatever is not of faith is sin.
 
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garee

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Manifestations are real enough. The question is, what is the source? We are warned about lying signs and wonders. Lord Jesus said that even the elect could be deceived.

How to discern? The keys are found in John 16 when the Lord Jesus tells us the role of the Holy Spirit. Lord Jesus also tells us what the Holy Spirit does not do. When our small group investigated the so-called Toronto Blessing (TB is good abbreviation. It produces terrible spiritual sickness), we found that it failed both in the positive and the negative.

I also had access to two videos of the launching of the Toronto Blessing. The two men involved are well known in Christian circles. The meetings were a farce. There was nothing decent or orderly. A senior pastor was hypnotised (yes, I know exactly what that is) and ridiculed as he paraded around the stage like a rooster. The man who was leading this farce proceeded to stop the pastor from speaking, insulting him at the same time.

Let me summarise the areas where the TB falls down. First, in brief, the Holy Spirit's role
1. The Holy Spirit will take what is of Christ and make it known to believers.
2. The Holy Spirit does not initiate. He speaks according to the instruction of Lord Jesus.
3. The Holy Spirit glorifies Jesus.

Now what the TB (and similar counterfeits) do:
1. TB places great emphasis on the Holy Spirit ("Holy Spirit bartender is how one promoter described himself)
2. TB places great emphasis on signs and wonders and zero on truth and reality.
3. TB promotes false "salvation" by people responding to manifestations, not to the gospel.
4. The promoter told people not to pray or exercise any discernment. "Just drink it in. Do your praying at home". What about testing the spirits to see if they be of God?

God has determined that the whole universe should be under the rule of His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. (Ephesians 1:10) Anything that in any detracts from God's determination is to be rejected as false and the work of the enemy. We live in an age when there is too little sound teaching and too much emphasis on experiences. I believe in miracles. I also know that there is much that is counterfeit and that leads Christians astray. Sincerity is not enough. The only defence we have is truth.

Thanks. I would offer.

We are warned about lying signs and wonders. . . . “beforehand”. Before the last new inspired word was given, before our Holy Father sealed up the possibility of any new revelations. The perfect spoken of in 1 Coriorinthians had come. Sealed (7) with a warning not to add or subtract from the whole, every inspired and moved to be written down word of prophecy written for us today ..

The Lord Jesus said that the elect could not be deceived. They have the whole book of prophecy God's written law. The gospel of our salvation it alone is key the gates of hell could never prevail against..

Mathew like Luke are speaking from a prespective of the last days a unknown amount of time, The time of promised reformation had come as the promise to Joel at Pentecost, the pivotal point of the reformation restoring the order of Christ's government. . . men and woman from all nations seeking after the approval of God according to His loving commandment( 2 Timothy 2:15) To study as a way of seeking his approval . . . two walking in agreement as one .(our salvation, our covenant of grace with our Loving God, Emanuel )

Matthew 24:22-24 King James Version (KJV)
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Not possible to those who do not add or subtract from the perfect. By that test they can try the spirits to see if they are temporal men seen or of the eternal Holy Spirit not seen .Any person that says this is what the lord said or I had a dream or vision would prove false .John is the last that remains the last.

All Christians are apologists we can as new creatures defend that which defends us . . .it as it is written. It empowering us to put on the armor of his design, just like we would protect the apple of our own eye as that which sees the wounds coming beforehand. . We should try and keep the armor on which is .emphasized by the word as a commandment "Put on the armor" the language of a one time event.

Seeing we are encircled by His love he as Light is the the lead guard and the rear guard creating darkness behind . We can see his backside prophecy fulfilled. but know man knows what is ahead save the father as prophecy not fulfilled. He reveals it by faith to those elected to salvation.

In that way our daily goal to keep it (God's armor ) on seeing it keeps us from the arrows of the evil one . . aimed to blind us of our savior Christ's love .Or first love. . the hearing of His understanding, working in us .The first and lasting experience. Its that love that we return to as it turns us towards him .The word of Gods faith working in mankind.

God does not heal or served using human hands. He has no needs but satisfies all. In that way according to Job 23 he is of one mind and always does whatsoever His souls pleases .Who could turn Him? He performs that which he appoint to us. He makes our hearts soft and heals them .He does the work of turning.

Experience is not the validator of the unseen eternal things of God.
That can be seen in Mathew 4 the beginning of the ministry of the father and Son. Not my will Jesus said be done but the will of the unseen father. .

When the thoughts of Satan, the father of lies brought what some would call out of the body experiences which simply is a lying spirts bringing a illusion into Jesus' fleshly mind. When approached with have you ever been experrnced and shown and propmised all the kingdoms and the glory . The Son of Man spoke the words of His father .As it is written again and again three times and the lying spirit left.

Three is used to indicate the end of the matter. "your'e out" back to the bottomless dugout.

Strike three struck him out .He did not even see it coming (no faith was given to him )Blinder than a Bat .
 
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Carl Emerson

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If scripture does not support something, you cannot have faith. Faith comes by (truthfully) hearing the word. And whatever is not of faith is sin.

That right there is where you err Dave...

The scripture says "Faith comes from hearing the Word of Christ"

Faith can come from reading the Scripture if the Holy Spirit grants understanding.

The Word of Christ is not the Scripture.

The Word of Christ is His breathed Word that can come in a variety of ways.

Yes it must align with an inspired understanding of Scripture - that is an essential test of authenticity.

But without the Holy Spirit the Scripture is a dead book or worse.

So the Scripture does not of itself produce faith.

Nor is the scripture exhaustive - so non mention is not proof of error.

So when you say the scripture must support something - or you cannot have faith - you are putting God in a box. The Author can move as He wills - there are many things that Jesus did that have no mention in Scripture.

So in these days when folks claim God is doing stuff - we need discernment to understand if it is real - we cant expect everything that He will do to be mentioned in Scripture.

So faith comes from Hearing His breathed Word to us personally, sometimes through Scripture, sometimes not - His Word is Jesus, not a book.

How then can we be sure we are not being deceived - through the discernment of the Body of Christ which is a joint ministry that only functions when brothers and sisters operate together in unity.

This is where the real problem lies in Christianity today.

Unity is a rare commodity in the Church because we have adopted counterfeits like unanimity or authoritarianism.

So the examples of God healing I speak of and provide evidence for were well attested by the Body of Christ at the time and we all rejoiced. Such healings and deliverances still happen today despite our pet theologies.

I have come to CF to encourage folk to believe He can and does heal and to "confess your sins to one another and pray for one another that you may be healed."

Sorry if it doesn't fit your theology and I wont back off.
 
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Dave L

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That right there is where you err Dave...

The scripture says "Faith comes from hearing the Word of Christ"

Faith can come from reading the Scripture if the Holy Spirit grants understanding.

The Word of Christ is not the Scripture.

The Word of Christ is His breathed Word that can come in a variety of ways.

Yes it must align with an inspired understanding of Scripture - that is an essential test of authenticity.

But without the Holy Spirit the Scripture is a dead book or worse.

So the Scripture does not of itself produce faith.

Nor is the scripture exhaustive - so non mention is not proof of error.

So when you say the scripture must support something - or you cannot have faith - you are putting God in a box. The Author can move as He wills - there are many things that Jesus did that have no mention in Scripture.

So in these days when folks claim God is doing stuff - we need discernment to understand if it is real - we cant expect everything that He will do to be mentioned in Scripture.

So faith comes from Hearing His breathed Word to us personally, sometimes through Scripture, sometimes not - His Word is Jesus, not a book.

How then can we be sure we are not being deceived - through the discernment of the Body of Christ which is a joint ministry that only functions when brothers and sisters operate together in unity.

This is where the real problem lies in Christianity today.

Unity is a rare commodity in the Church because we have adopted counterfeits like unanimity or authoritarianism.

So the examples of God healing I speak of and provide evidence for were well attested by the Body of Christ at the time and we all rejoiced. Such healings and deliverances still happen today despite our pet theologies.

I have come to CF to encourage folk to believe He can and does heal and to "confess your sins to one another and pray for one another that you may be healed."

Sorry if it doesn't fit your theology and I wont back off.
Scripture is God's word. Not vain babbling we are to avoid. Paul quoted scripture. But he didn't twist it which is common today.
 
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Carl Emerson

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It proves the prayer of faith heals. But the gifts are long gone.

The Gifts are a fundamental confirmation He brings when going out in obedience to the great commission which is as valid today as it ever was.
 
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Dave L

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The Gifts are a fundamental confirmation He brings when going out in obedience to the great commission which is as valid today as it ever was.
This was only for the Apostles and the few they laid hands on.
 
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