Discerning between the Holy Spirit and counterfeits (e.g. Kundalini)?

[Dave L]

No. I'm saying that the Church is not perfect and that the Kingdom has not yet come. There is still a need for prophecy. For example, Agabus prophesied a famine in Jerusalem. You can't find a bible verse to tell you specifically that a famine is coming so prepare. It's unfortunate that the false and counterfeit gifts cast doubt on the real thing. I was healed of a nasty liver complaint. The pastor had what I came to know as a word of knowledge about my condition. He then prayed for me and I was instantly healed. I've had many similar experiences in the 46 years since that event.

What makes you think Paul refers to the New Heavens and Earth? The kingdom is already here since Jesus began preaching it. And he also says tongues were incomplete but scripture is complete. That's some fancy footwork

 

[garee]

No. I'm saying that the Church is not perfect and that the Kingdom has not yet come. There is still a need for prophecy. For example, Agabus prophesied a famine in Jerusalem. You can't find a bible verse to tell you specifically that a famine is coming so prepare. It's unfortunate that the false and counterfeit gifts cast doubt on the real thing. I was healed of a nasty liver complaint. The pastor had what I came to know as a word of knowledge about my condition. He then prayed for me and I was instantly healed. I've had many similar experiences in the 46 years since that event.

Wonders in healings were used for a short period of time to show the unseen work of the gospel during the time of reformation.

God is no longer bringing any new prophecy . God does not heal by human hands . The laying on of hands is a manner of prayer or request to be heard on high . God temporally heals both the believer and those who believe not. We have the privilege to pray and watch .

Jesus says it a evil generation, natural unconverted mankind that seeks after signs as lying wonders .No new sign as prophecy was given to wonder about. The Son of man Jesus fulfilled the sign of Jonah. .the last. We walk by faith the unseen eternal hidden glory

 

[Aussie Pete]

Wonders in healings were used for a short period of time to show the unseen work of the gospel during the time of reformation.

God is no longer bringing any new prophecy . God does not heal by human hands . The laying on of hands is a manner of prayer or request to be heard on high . God temporally heals both the believer and those who believe not. We have the privilege to pray and watch .

Jesus says it a evil generation, natural unconverted mankind that seeks after signs as lying wonders .No new sign as prophecy was given to wonder about. The Son of man Jesus fulfilled the sign of Jonah. .the last. We walk by faith the unseen eternal hidden glory

I beg to differ. I did not seek signs and wonders. I knew nothing about the Holy Spirit or the gifts. I met a group from Teen Challenge. I went to some of their meetings. I was suffering from a liver complaint. I had no external symptoms and I managed it with medication. At one meeting, the pastor had a word of knowledge, describing my symptoms to the letter. He offered to pray for the individual who requested prayer. I was most dubious as I'd never come across this kind of thing before. He laid hands on me and commanded healing. I was instantly healed. I'd been born again for a few months.

I was sceptical about the baptism of the Holy Spirit for about 3 years. It seemed to me that it was for emotional people, not intellectually inclined, cold hearted people as I was then. I was wrong. I also know that a great deal of what is called the Holy Spirit is hyped up emotion and fakery. There is still the genuine article. John Wesley decried the lack of manifestations of the Holy Spirit, blaming the unbelief and carnality of the church at the time.

 

[Aussie Pete]

What makes you think Paul refers to the New Heavens and Earth? The kingdom is already here since Jesus began preaching it. And he also says tongues were incomplete but scripture is complete. That's some fancy footwork

If the Kingdom is here, why pray, "Thy Kingdom come"? The Kingdom is where Satan has been driven out. That is still a work in progress. The gifts of the Spirit and the power of the Spirit are by no means redundant. If anything, they are even more important in this present age.

 

[Dave L]

If the Kingdom is here, why pray, "Thy Kingdom come"? The Kingdom is where Satan has been driven out. That is still a work in progress. The gifts of the Spirit and the power of the Spirit are by no means redundant. If anything, they are even more important in this present age.

“But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.” Luke 11:20 (KJV 1900)

The gifts were only for the Apostles, as they were for Moses and Elijah/Elisha. To confirm their ministries. They had an Apostle or Apostles present in the two outpourings. And no one else received them except through an Apostle's hands.

“God also bearing them [ the Apostles] witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?” Hebrews 2:4 (KJV 1900)

 

[garee]

“But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.” Luke 11:20 (KJV 1900)

The gifts were only for the Apostles, as they were for Moses and Elijah/Elisha. To confirm their ministries. They had an Apostle or Apostles present in the two outpourings. And no one else received them except through an Apostle's hands.

“God also bearing them [ the Apostles] witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?” Hebrews 2:4 (KJV 1900)

I would agree gifts given to the apostles like Moses and Aaron . . wonders, not faith the end of the matter used for a certain time period a reformation restoring the the government of God in respect to the Father and Son working as one God to bring the peace of God. In that way the apostle Moses was used to represent our unseen Holy Father and Aaron the son of man Jesus our high priest as prophet sent with the will of the Father .

Exodus 4:15-17 King James Version (KJV) And thou shalt speak unto him, and put words in his mouth: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what ye shall do. And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God. And thou shalt take this rod in thine hand, wherewith thou shalt do signs


Exodus 7:1-3 King James Version (KJV) And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land. And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

Temporal healing represent the unseen work of the gospel . Temporal healing is not the gospel. All die (Hebrew 11:39 )not receiving the promise of a new incorruptible body, the bride of Christ, the church.

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[garee]

If the Kingdom is here, why pray, "Thy Kingdom come"? The Kingdom is where Satan has been driven out. That is still a work in progress. The gifts of the Spirit and the power of the Spirit are by no means redundant. If anything, they are even more important in this present age.

The spiritual gifts not seen are still working out the perfect complete will of God. No new prophecy like I had a vison or a word of knowledge. No such thing as sign gifts they are used falsely to self edify a person. (I did it it proves I have the Spirit of Christ.) They in the end of the matter mock prophecy the spirit of judgement, the tongue of God shown by those who fall backward and mutter words without knowledge.

 

[TruthSeek3r]

No new prophecy like I had a vison or a word of knowledge.

Then how do you explain @Aussie Pete's testimony? Read post #103 again. Also, check out this thread: Gift/word of knowledge?

 

[Dave L]

I beg to differ. I did not seek signs and wonders. I knew nothing about the Holy Spirit or the gifts. I met a group from Teen Challenge. I went to some of their meetings. I was suffering from a liver complaint. I had no external symptoms and I managed it with medication. At one meeting, the pastor had a word of knowledge, describing my symptoms to the letter. He offered to pray for the individual who requested prayer. I was most dubious as I'd never come across this kind of thing before. He laid hands on me and commanded healing. I was instantly healed. I'd been born again for a few months.

I was sceptical about the baptism of the Holy Spirit for about 3 years. It seemed to me that it was for emotional people, not intellectually inclined, cold hearted people as I was then. I was wrong. I also know that a great deal of what is called the Holy Spirit is hyped up emotion and fakery. There is still the genuine article. John Wesley decried the lack of manifestations of the Holy Spirit, blaming the unbelief and carnality of the church at the time.

You are confusing the prayer of faith through the laying on of hands with the gifts only the Apostles had, along with those they laid hands on. You need to raise some dead folks and restore amputated limbs before you can claim the gifts. I had the Holy Spirit long before I ever heard today's feeble attempts to explain the experience.

 

[Dave L]

Then how do you explain @Aussie Pete's testimony? Read post #103 again. Also, check out this thread: Gift/word of knowledge?

The prayer of faith heals the sick through the laying on of hands. But this is not anywhere near the level of the gifts only the Apostles had, and those they laid hands on. Where are the gifts today with all the video floating about. No raising of the dead. No polio healed. No blind made to see etc.

 

[lismore]

Thanks for your kindness. The prayer of faith heals. But the gifts today are baseless claims without evidence. When you see them raising the dead and restoring amputated limbs, you can start doubting me. Paul says scripture completely furnishes us. He says tongues were incomplete knowledge. Faith comes from hearing the word, not mindless babbling.

Hello Dave. Thanks for replying to me. I agree with what you're saying to a certain point. I experienced what you also experienced, there are definitely false claims and false manifestations in Charismatic and Pentecostal Churches.

In my experience such circles also have a low priority for Bible Study and the Fruits of the Spirit. Studying the scriptures is key. We are in the last days and we can expect to see deceptions and deceivers, as the Lord warned us about. We must be prepared and alert.

However I believe there are genuine gifts of the Spirit today. Sadly though they seem to be almost drowned out by all the madness and lies. God Bless You

 

[Dave L]

Hello Dave. Thanks for replying to me. I agree with what you're saying to a certain point. I experienced what you also experienced, there are definitely false claims and false manifestations in Charismatic and Pentecostal Churches.

In my experience such circles also have a low priority for Bible Study and the Fruits of the Spirit. Studying the scriptures is key. We are in the last days and we can expect to see deceptions and deceivers, as the Lord warned us about. We must be prepared and alert.

However I believe there are genuine gifts of the Spirit today. Sadly though they seem to be almost drowned out by all the madness and lies. God Bless You

Here's the problem in a nut shell. The gifts were only for the Apostles who performed the same role as Jesus, Moses, Elijah, and Elisha. The gifts validated their Apostleship.

“How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?” Hebrews 2:3–4 (KJV 1900)

And also only to those, they laid hands on.

“And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,” Acts 8:18 (KJV 1900)

Why did Paul want to go to Rome?

“For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end you may be established;” Romans 1:11 (KJV 1900)

And only to those few, they laid hands on. The Samaritans, The Ephesian disciples of John. Philip, Stephen, keep in mind Paul ministered to the Corinthians....

They lasted until Scripture was complete. Paul said tongues and prophecy were incomplete. But scripture equips us completely. And when the perfect (complete) came, those gifts would cease.

Also, Paul no longer healed in the epistles but placed his sick friends on medicine.

I have lots more if interested.

 

[TruthSeek3r]

No blind made to see etc.

Check out this video. Also check out this thread: Supernatural healing of visual impairments at faith healing services, eyeglasses no longer needed?. Also take a look at this case.

 

[Carl Emerson]

You know, Dave agrees with the prayer of faith healing the sick as being valid for today.

Who cares about the theology of apostleship when the basic command to go out and pray for the sick still stands.

This is what I have done to great effect and encourage others to do.

If He desires to do a miracle or two along the way - who are we to question that - is that not His right?

So all this debating pales into insignificance when the focus is on doing what He said.

So learn to hear His voice (so you know when and where to go and who to pray for)

Go out with the Gospel of Jesus and His Kingship.

Pray for the sick.

Let God be God and bring healing as He wills.

It is in simple obedience that He shows up.

More action and less words is the order of the day !!!

 

[Aussie Pete]

“But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.” Luke 11:20 (KJV 1900)

The gifts were only for the Apostles, as they were for Moses and Elijah/Elisha. To confirm their ministries. They had an Apostle or Apostles present in the two outpourings. And no one else received them except through an Apostle's hands.

“God also bearing them [ the Apostles] witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?” Hebrews 2:4 (KJV 1900)

Steven was a deacon, not an apostle. He performed great signs and wonders. Acts 6:8

 

[lismore]

Here's the problem in a nut shell. The gifts were only for the Apostles who performed the same role as Jesus, Moses, Elijah, and Elisha. The gifts validated their Apostleship.

Hello Dave. Yes, that is absolutely correct, there were gifts for the apostles:

Acts 2:43 Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles.

The double problem I think in today's church is that there are many people who claim to be apostles and absolutely no accountability for many of them. There are many in churches who claim to have gifts and no accountability for many of them, far from keeping the wolves at bay the modern church is ringing the dinner bell for them. God Bless

 

[Dave L]

Steven was a deacon, not an apostle. He performed great signs and wonders. Acts 6:8

Remember, the Apostles laid hands on him, Philip and others. And it says Stephen did mighty works?

“And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch: Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.” Acts 6:5–6 (KJV 1900)

“And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.” Acts 6:8 (KJV 1900)

 

[Dave L]

Check out this video. Also check out this thread: Supernatural healing of visual impairments at faith healing services, eyeglasses no longer needed?. Also take a look at this case.

These are not the gifts only the Apostles had or those they laid hands on. Let's see some raising of the dead. How about polio victims with their limbs restored as in Acts?

 

[Aussie Pete]

These are not the gifts only the Apostles had or those they laid hands on. Let's see some raising of the dead. How about polio victims with their limbs restored as in Acts?

The reason that there are so few miraculous signs and wonders these days is that there is so much doubt and unbelief. Mark 6 …4 "Then Jesus said to them, “Only in his hometown, among his relatives, and in his own household is a prophet without honor.” 5So He could not perform any miracles there, except to lay His hands on a few of the sick and heal them."

 

[Dave L]

The reason that there are so few miraculous signs and wonders these days is that there is so much doubt and unbelief. Mark 6 …4 "Then Jesus said to them, “Only in his hometown, among his relatives, and in his own household is a prophet without honor.” 5So He could not perform any miracles there, except to lay His hands on a few of the sick and heal them."

The miracles were meant to prove Apostleship to the unbelieving masses. Which they did. You don't see them today because there are no Apostles.