Discerning between the Holy Spirit and counterfeits (e.g. Kundalini)?

xaris

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My questions: how can we discern between genuine Holy Spirit manifestations and counterfeit ones? How can we make sure that we are filled with the Holy Spirit and nothing else?
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. (1Co 2:12)

We are to test the spirits...

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
(1Jn 4:1)

according to His Word...

To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
(Isa 8:20)
 
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Carl Emerson

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Why not quote what the Scripture says in context...


1 Jn 4:
1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. 4You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. 5They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. 6We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
 
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tturt

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Ever seen anything positive from Andrew Strom? Wonder why?

Find many believe they have discernment which is good but there are differences between discernment and the discernment of spirits. The latter is from the Holy Spirit who guides us to all truth. When the manifestations of the spiritual gifts are stated, it says it's given by the Holy Spirit (I Cor 12). That means the Holy Spirit can give us that info - then it's not based on what we think. Can we set aside our opinions and even bring ourselves to asks.

It takes very little to offend believers, Seen a couple of tears and 1 spoken amen (2 separate occasions) set folks off.

Then there are those who dont want a supernatural God to do anything supernatural - you know not today. .

Here's an example of discerning of a Godly spirit '"And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision." Gal 2:9

Then we have- "These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation." This truth was stated about Paul and Silas. What could be wrong with that? After she followed them many days saying this, Paul commanded, in the name of Jesus, for the evil spirit of divination to leave her and it did the same hour. (Acts 16).
 
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Dave L

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Based on an overwhelming amount of testimonies I've watched, I feel strongly compelled to believe that the Holy Spirit still works and manifests today. However, I'm also aware of the big controversy around certain manifestations and the potential danger of counterfeits.

For instance, revivalist movements such as the Toronto Blessing have spurred a wave of controversy around the origin of the strange manifestations observed in their services, which many believe to be caused by counterfeit spirits pretending to be the Holy Spirit. For example, Andrew Strom published an influential three-part documentary (1, 2, 3) and a book in which he argues that the observed manifestations are suspiciously similar to the symptoms reported by individuals who have undergone the so-called "Kundalini awakening".

Moreover, after watching testimonies like this one: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCB64jBvrG-9f8RWWbNSJMBg, I'm utterly convinced that counterfeit experiences such as the Kundalini awakening are a real thing.

My questions: how can we discern between genuine Holy Spirit manifestations and counterfeit ones? How can we make sure that we are filled with the Holy Spirit and nothing else?
Use scripture. Study the Apostles and their roles as miracle workers just like Moses, Elijah, Elisha, and Jesus. The miracles in each case ended when they completed their purpose. Ask yourself why you only hear about miracles today with zero documented evidence? Why did Paul put his sick friends on medicine in the epistles if healing continued as they say it does today?
 
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Gregory Thompson

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My questions: how can we discern between genuine Holy Spirit manifestations and counterfeit ones? How can we make sure that we are filled with the Holy Spirit and nothing else?

Well, whether it's in a baptist church, a pentecostal church, a catholic church, or the toronto blessing - the Holy Spirit can be observed by the change of life afterwards - especially today.

Churches nowadays tend to have this effect in-the-church that stops existing after one leaves the building.

So how people act differently than before when outside the assembly is really the only way of knowing.

If you're examining for yourself, then just examine your fruit - has attending this assembly made you more "fruit of the holy spirit" or more something else?
 
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Hazelelponi

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Based on an overwhelming amount of testimonies I've watched, I feel strongly compelled to believe that the Holy Spirit still works and manifests today. However, I'm also aware of the big controversy around certain manifestations and the potential danger of counterfeits.

For instance, revivalist movements such as the Toronto Blessing have spurred a wave of controversy around the origin of the strange manifestations observed in their services, which many believe to be caused by counterfeit spirits pretending to be the Holy Spirit. For example, Andrew Strom published an influential three-part documentary (1, 2, 3) and a book in which he argues that the observed manifestations are suspiciously similar to the symptoms reported by individuals who have undergone the so-called "Kundalini awakening".

Moreover, after watching testimonies like this one: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCB64jBvrG-9f8RWWbNSJMBg, I'm utterly convinced that counterfeit experiences such as the Kundalini awakening are a real thing.

My questions: how can we discern between genuine Holy Spirit manifestations and counterfeit ones? How can we make sure that we are filled with the Holy Spirit and nothing else?

I think others have given you good answers... and I think it's important to know..

All I can say is what I know from my own experience.

When I was saved I was filled with the Holy Spirit - which I do undoubtedly believe is the Spirit the Apostles spoke of in Scripture.

I had feelings - it felt like all of heaven was poured on me.. there was immense peace in that, and I couldn't stop praising God - for hours, leading into days of worship, leading now into years...

The pull and the drive to tell everyone I knew about Jesus the Messiah and the Gospel of Salvation through Him, was so strong that fighting that drive was a near impossibility.

My husband told me not to tell people about all of it because they wouldn't understand... and he was right they don't....

I saw the word of God in a whole new light, I saw people in a whole new light, and I saw myself differently too...

I told everyone in my family that I was saved, and what God had done through His Son.. I called my son on the phone and talked to him for hours about it, I wrote letters to my mother and extended family about salvation...

I couldn't help it.. I HAD to tell them.. and yes, it was a serious drive.

Talking about God is a necessity in my life now as much as breathing is and it's one I could never explain, other than it comes from God...

I've considered writing a book, almost feel like I need to, to tell others, to warn others...

But for now I contain it on the forum... because I don't think I can say I have the knowledge to do anything else.

What I never did was have seizures, laugh like an idiot, or feel I had to tell people weird things (unless you think talking about Christ is weird) - and I'll never be a Pentecostal, I don't think they know Scripture very well... but I do believe in the indwelling Holy Spirit, and I don't think it's false.

So, there is feelings involved though.. lots of them because everything changed on a dime.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Use scripture. Study the Apostles and their roles as miracle workers just like Moses, Elijah, Elisha, and Jesus. The miracles in each case ended when they completed their purpose. Ask yourself why you only hear about miracles today with zero documented evidence? Why did Paul put his sick friends on medicine in the epistles if healing continued as they say it does today?

That is not true...

I have supplied testimony of healing from cancer here on CF with medical evidence.

Read my testimony...

Speaking In Tongues

Post #120
 
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Dave L

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That is not true...

I have supplied testimony of healing from cancer here on CF with medical evidence.

Read my testimony...

Speaking In Tongues

Post #120
The prayer of faith heals. Forgiveness of sins heals sin caused illness. Jesus taught this as did James. You need to raise the dead and restore amputated limbs before claiming the Apostle's level of miracles happen in history or today.
 
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RaymondG

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The prayer of faith heals. Forgiveness of sins heals sin caused illness. Jesus taught this as did James. You need to raise the dead and restore amputated limbs before claiming the Apostle's level of miracles happen in history or today.
These things are possible today as well. Yet, if Jesus was not able to do many miracles in certain places because of unbelief, how do you think we will fair today? Especially when we are able to come to sites like these and see christians fostering this unbelief by exclaiming that these things are not for the present?
 
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Dave L

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These things are possible today as well. Yet, if Jesus was not able to do many miracles in certain places because of unbelief, how do you think we will fair today? Especially when we are able to come to sites like these and see christians fostering this unbelief by exclaiming that these things are not for the present?
It's the one claiming the gifts are for today without a shred of evidence you need to watch out for. Faith heals because sin causes sickness. And forgiven sin often brings healing.
 
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RaymondG

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Based on an overwhelming amount of testimonies I've watched, I feel strongly compelled to believe that the Holy Spirit still works and manifests today. However, I'm also aware of the big controversy around certain manifestations and the potential danger of counterfeits.

For instance, revivalist movements such as the Toronto Blessing have spurred a wave of controversy around the origin of the strange manifestations observed in their services, which many believe to be caused by counterfeit spirits pretending to be the Holy Spirit. For example, Andrew Strom published an influential three-part documentary (1, 2, 3) and a book in which he argues that the observed manifestations are suspiciously similar to the symptoms reported by individuals who have undergone the so-called "Kundalini awakening".

Moreover, after watching testimonies like this one: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCB64jBvrG-9f8RWWbNSJMBg, I'm utterly convinced that counterfeit experiences such as the Kundalini awakening are a real thing.

My questions: how can we discern between genuine Holy Spirit manifestations and counterfeit ones? How can we make sure that we are filled with the Holy Spirit and nothing else?
I say to judge them by their fruit, not by the name given to their experience. How do they behave after the experience.....do they start to judge those who have not had the same experience....or are they more loving and understanding?
 
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aiki

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To be fair, I think 'balance' is a better word than 'counter'.

Hmmm...I don't see that I've been imbalanced in what I've written.

I don't think a matter has to be prescriptive to be valid.

What do you mean by "valid"? Or, rather, valid in regards to what, exactly?

Of course if you don't believe God is meeting His believers miraculously and personally in this age then you must conclude that all such claims of encountering God are deceptive.

I don't recall writing that God is not meeting His children "miraculously and personally in this age." I think He does meet them personally and even, at times, miraculously today. This is what I was indicating when I wrote to NBB that I'm a soft cessationist.

My main contention is over the idea that miraculous experiences with God ought to be relatively commonplace, that the Holy Spirit is busy giving believers extraordinary moments as a matter of course. In the NT, miracles are always associated with the establishment of the spiritual authority of Christ and the apostles and the forming of the Early Church. There are no frivolous, just-to-thrill supernatural events that God put on for His children anywhere recorded in the NT or taught as commonplace to Christian living. And so, I am highly skeptical of claims to supernatural, miraculous occurrences Christians make these days. When I look for God in a person's life, I look for a hunger for God's word, a desire for holiness, a love of the brethren, conviction of sin, divine discipline, strength in the face of temptation - the things the Bible says explicitly are the work of the Spirit in every Christian. It has been my experience, though, that the more these miraculous moments occupy the interest of a believer, the less truly spiritual the believer's life is.

My mum is a classic case - alone as a widow in a country house in bed at night - feels strangely warm and was physically moved about in bed as internal organs in her stomach were healed and put back in the right place. This was a condition she struggled with for 28 years since I was born. And the word she heard "well done thou good and faithful servant" - was that coming from Satan as well? She lived to 98 and touched many lives with the Good News of Jesus.

As I wrote in my first post to this thread, exceptional claims require exceptional evidence to establish. I wouldn't accept a Hindu saying to me, "Believe me, Kali killed my annoying neighbor for me!" without very good evidence in support of such a claim, and I hold the Christian to the very same standard. Your confidence in the veracity of your story about your Mum is not sufficient certification that its true - not for me, anyway. Can you produce any medical documentation in support of your claim? On what good grounds, exactly, does your Mum assume it was God who rearranged her internal organs? The devil quoted Scripture to Jesus; he could certainly do so with your Mum. Now, I'm not saying this is actually the case, but in the absence of hard evidence grounding your claims about your Mum's experience, I am well within the bounds of prudence to remain very skeptical about those claims.

All I am saying is that while deception is rife genuine encounters with Him are happening and can be felt by the recipient without them being rendered totally prone.

I don't doubt that "genuine encounters" with God do happen. They happen for me everyday, though they aren't miraculous - except insofar as God transforms me, a once incorrigibly wicked sinner. I can see clearly a Christ-centered, holy, joyful life where the state of a person's internal organs are - thankfully - entirely hidden from me. And this is one of the main problems with this miraculous signs stuff: It is very easy to fake - far easier than faking the Fruit of the Spirit, and the self-sacrificing love of God, and the holy joy of a surrendered life.
 
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RaymondG

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It's the one claiming the gifts are for today without a shred of evidence you need to watch out for. Faith heals because sin causes sickness. And forgiven sin often brings healing.
Yes, I prefer evidence and personal experience over testimonies of belief. Yet, those blessed with these gifts, would not be on this platform, boasting about what they have and can do with these gifts. These are things that are done in private....that come to light.....yet are often not believed when they come to light. And one who has this gift, would be totally fine with others not believing that they have it.....

It's just one of those things......if you desire miracles you can have it.....if not, this is ok as well.

The only thing I advise against, is the hindrance of other that would enter in...
 
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Dave L

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Yes, I prefer evidence over testimonies of belief. Yet, those blessed with these gifts, would not be on this platform, boasting about what they have and can do with these gifts. These are things that are done in private....that come to light.....yet are often not believed when they come to light. And one who has this gift, would be totally fine with others not believing that they have it.....

It's just one of those things......if you desire miracles you can have it.....if not, this is ok as well.

The only thing I advise against, is the hindrance of other that would enter in...
Can you produce one shred of evidence for any miracles today that were performed by the Apostles? The prayer of faith heals but existed before they did, even in the OT.
 
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aiki

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I really want to avoid playing definition and semantics games.

You may be playing such games, but I am not. I have grounded my assertions in Scripture, not semantical maneuvering.

Whether we call them "baptism of" or "being filled with", what matters is that we both agree that there are special moments when the Holy Spirit can come over someone in a notable way, empowering them for witnessing, and these special moments can take place more than once. That's undeniable from Acts 4:29-31, right?

I already addressed this. It is important to distinguish between being baptized in the Spirit, which is to be born-again into Christ (Romans 6:1-10; Romans 8:9-11; Titus 3:5; 1 John 4:13, etc.), from being merely filled by the Spirit. Scripture indicates one is born-again by the Spirit only once, whereas one may be filled by the Spirit many times throughout one's life. To get this wrong is to begin down the road of the hyper-charismatic, some of whom claim as many as twelve different possible baptisms in the Spirit - among a host of other cockeyed false doctrines.

Acts 4:29-31 does not describe the same event as in Acts 2 where the gathered disciples of Christ become the first born-again children of God. In the Acts 4 instance, the apostles were simply filled - as the account says - with the Spirit, not spiritually-regenerated, as happens at conversion.

Now, regarding your claim that the apostles became born again in Acts 2: there is no verse in Acts 2 that says that the 120 became born again at Pentecost and hadn't been born again up until that point. You appear to base your claim on the assumption that the apostles received the Holy Spirit for the first time in Acts 2. However, John 20:21-23 tells us otherwise:

21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

Had Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the disciples when he did what he did in John 20:21-23? Had atonement been made for the disciples which was utterly necessary for their justification, sanctification, redemption and acceptance by God?

The fact that the disciples were not yet born-again would explain why, in Acts 2, the Spirit came again upon these same disciples - from whom, obviously, the Spirit had departed since the event of John 20:21-23 - as the Spirit did with individuals in OT accounts (ie. Samson) who also were not born-again.

Furthermore, there is no reason to doubt that the 120 disciples in the upper room were already water baptized and believed in Jesus as their messiah by the moment Acts 2 happened.

Baptism - or, at least, ritual purification - was not uncommon among the Jews in OT times. But their "baptism" did not secure salvation for them. It couldn't. Only the sacrifice of the Lamb of God could save in the manner of the New Covenant, spiritually-regenerating a person (Titus 3:5) and making them a temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 6:19-20). And as accounts of Acts indicate, merely being baptized by John the Baptist and believing in Christ as Messiah did not spiritually-regenerate people; only by baptism of the Spirit - being born spiritually - was a person fully adopted by God and made one of His children.

Despite all of that, are you seriously saying that none of them was already born again when Acts 2 took place?

This is what the Bible plainly indicates. See above. There is no spiritual regeneration apart from the atoning work of Christ at Calvary. It is, in my view, a kind of blasphemy to suggest otherwise.

Acts 4:12 (NASB)
12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 (NASB)
30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
31 so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."
 
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Carl Emerson

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You need to raise the dead and restore amputated limbs before claiming the Apostle's level of miracles happen in history or today.

I am not making such a claim...

I am responding to your assertion -

"Ask yourself why you only hear about miracles today with zero documented evidence? Why did Paul put his sick friends on medicine in the epistles if healing continued as they say it does today?"

This is clearly wrong.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Can you produce any medical documentation in support of your claim?

You might like to examine the medical evidence for this recent healing from cancer.

Read my testimony...

Speaking In Tongues

Post #120
 
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Carl Emerson

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Yes, I prefer evidence and personal experience over testimonies of belief. Yet, those blessed with these gifts, would not be on this platform, boasting about what they have and can do with these gifts. These are things that are done in private....that come to light.....yet are often not believed when they come to light. And one who has this gift, would be totally fine with others not believing that they have it.....

It's just one of those things......if you desire miracles you can have it.....if not, this is ok as well.

The only thing I advise against, is the hindrance of other that would enter in...

I have presented evidence - I am not boasting except in Christ and His great mercy - I have waited 40 years before beginning to speak about what God has done and is doing - These things happen in private - I dont care if you believe me or not.
 
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