Dinosaurs on the Ark?

[Eryk]

allegory

The Bible is the history of real events that affect real people in a real way. It's the history of what the king of the universe has done. This is our relationship with God, through covenants he made with people, and his acts in history. The denial of the reality of these people and events is the attempt to remove God from "our" world. What is left is so general (the "human condition") one can no longer tell the difference between God and the world, and he has no supremacy. Replacing the God of history with personal, subjective experience puts God under the control of the human - a psycho-spiritual energy to be harnessed. The attempt to dethrone God is a very old agenda.

 

[AV1611VET]

Moreover--and this is most important--neither Paul nor the early Fathers give any indication that belief in the "literal inerrancy" of Genesis was essential,

Really?

What's this then?

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

... where Paul argues that adding an ess on to a word can lead to the wrong conclusion.

As many demonstrate when they stick an ess in Genesis 1:1, where there is not a single ess in the whole verse.

 

[Eryk]

I would not be surprised to learn that Paul thought the story recounted actual historical events. Many people did then and still do. He was drawing aligorical meaning from the story anyway, so the matter is of little moment. However, it is impossible to suppose that he thought the text of the story to be the literal, inerrant, perspicuous and self-interpreting product of plenary verbal inspiration, as modern creationists do; those are all modern inventions. Moreover--and this is most important--neither Paul nor the early Fathers give any indication that belief in the "literal inerrancy" of Genesis was essential, as modern creationists insist. Figurative interpretations of Genesis are almost as old as the book itself and have been entertained by a number respectable theologians over the centuries. Hostile condemnation for it is also an invention of the modern creationists.

The fathers believed in inerrancy.

https://www.tms.edu/m/TMS-Spring2016-Article-05.pdf

They used allegory to show types and symbols of Christ. They did not deny the historicity of Old Testament events. For a very long time in Christendom, everyone read the Bible as history.

 

[KWCrazy]

However, this is a Christian forum, and you accused me of not being a Christian based on how I interpret Genesis - that is the height of arrogance and hubris on this website.

Blatantly false. I said, "We get that same argument from atheists. We don't need it from Christians."
That's the second time you've accused me falsely.

I do not believe that Adam was a literal historical figure. I believe the entire creation story is allegory to tell us that God created mankind in his image. I believe that the story of the Fall is allegory to teach us that we, as a species, have turned from God and thus into sin, requiring His saving grace. I believe the flood story is allegory to teach us the consequences of sin and turning from God.

Perhaps you can do what no other TE has ever been able to do and demonstrate through passages of Scripture anything you just posted. In Exodus 20:11 we see the six day creation carved by the finger of God onto a stone tablet. Do you also contend that the 10 Commandments; the basis of modern Christian teaching, is only allegory?

Not a word of Scripture conforms to what you are saying. How, then, can you expect us to believe you?

I have faith in God and His teachings, yet I also believe what science has shown us.

So God's word is only true when your science teacher agrees with it? There are 333 miracles in the Bible. Not a single one of them conform to the laws of science. Are they all allegory? By what standard do you decide what to accept and what to reject? Is it any more impossible to raise the dead than to create a man out of dust? Genesis is a historical narrative and is referenced more than 200 times throughout the Bible. Far from allegory, it's foundational doctrine. By one man sin came into the world. Through one man the sins of the world can be forgiven. The word of God is perfect as written. Rejecting foundational doctrine does not strengthen it.

 

[Eryk]

We get that same argument from atheists. We don't need it from Christians.

QFT. Great post, every sentence.

On this thread I am having to say the exact same things I've said to atheists on the apologetics forum.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I would not be surprised to learn that Paul thought the story recounted actual historical events.

Jesus, and all the Apostles, and the disciples, all agreed, simply,
that the Bible is truth, as
also
YHWH has always said, period.

They had many antichrists in their midst then, as written, and of course
many today is no surprise at all.

 

[EpiscipalMe]

The Bible is the history of real events that affect real people in a real way. It's the history of what the king of the universe has done. This is our relationship with God, through covenants he made with people, and his acts in history. The denial of the reality of these people and events is the attempt to remove God from "our" world. What is left is so general (the "human condition") one can no longer tell the difference between God and the world, and he has no supremacy. Replacing the God of history with personal, subjective experience puts God under the control of the human - a psycho-spiritual energy to be harnessed. The attempt to dethrone God is a very old agenda.

Meh. I don't see it that way. I have no problem believing in God as the Father of all and believing that Genesis is allegory.

Blatantly false. I said, "We get that same argument from atheists. We don't need it from Christians."
That's the second time you've accused me falsely.

Perhaps you can do what no other TE has ever been able to do and demonstrate through passages of Scripture anything you just posted. In Exodus 20:11 we see the six day creation carved by the finger of God onto a stone tablet. Do you also contend that the 10 Commandments; the basis of modern Christian teaching, is only allegory?

Not a word of Scripture conforms to what you are saying. How, then, can you expect us to believe you?

So God's word is only true when your science teacher agrees with it? There are 333 miracles in the Bible. Not a single one of them conform to the laws of science. Are they all allegory? By what standard do you decide what to accept and what to reject? Is it any more impossible to raise the dead than to create a man out of dust? Genesis is a historical narrative and is referenced more than 200 times throughout the Bible. Far from allegory, it's foundational doctrine. By one man sin came into the world. Through one man the sins of the world can be forgiven. The word of God is perfect as written. Rejecting foundational doctrine does not strengthen it.

I contend that the Ten Commandments are real, however, that does not mean that Moses necessarily carried them down from a mountain on stone tablets inscribed by the literal finger of God.

As for the miracles, I do not have trouble believing them. God has not seen fit to show us that they are not literal. He has, however, seem fit to show us that the creation story and flood are allegorical, since science is a gift from God.

Regardless, finding out that the miracles are not true and are allegory would not shake my faith one bit. The power of the New Testament comes from the lessons taught by Jesus and the apostles, not the miracles performed. The resurrection, of course, is foundational, and I believe in that.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Moses spoke of Jesus.
Moses did as YHWH said.
None of the followers of Jesus ever doubted this.

 

[Speedwell]

The fathers believed in inerrancy.

https://www.tms.edu/m/TMS-Spring2016-Article-05.pdf

They used allegory to show types and symbols of Christ. They did not deny the historicity of Old Testament events. For a very long time in Christendom, everyone read the Bible as history.

Did you actually read that article or just post it because of the title?

 

[EpiscipalMe]

Blatantly false. I said, "We get that same argument from atheists. We don't need it from Christians."
That's the second time you've accused me falsely.

So this is not meant to question my faith (emphasis mine):

The fact is, you're wrong. Man did not evolve. Every time you say he did you're re-stating a lie. If it's contrary to what Jesus taught it's a lie, and Jesus said if you didn't believe in what Moses wrote you wouldn't believe in Him either. I can promise you that it is a sin to come to a Christian forum and attempt to convince others that the word of God is not true. It is a sin to attempt to lead others astray; to put a stumbling block in your brother's way.

 

[Eryk]

Did you actually read that article or just post it because of the title?

Yes, I read it. I posted the link for your benefit because you're confused about the Fathers.

 

[Speedwell]

In Exodus 20:11 we see the six day creation carved by the finger of God onto a stone tablet.

Bad argument. There is textual evidence that Ex 20:11 is not part of the Ten Commandments. It may be, but the issue is not certain.

Do you also contend that the 10 Commandments; the basis of modern Christian teaching, is only allegory?

Why should they be? Taking a small portion of the Bible and determining that it is allegory does not mean that the whole rest of the Bible must be allegory. In any case, if God writes it, there is no such thing as "only allegory." The texts of the Bible are fully authoritative based on divine inspiration, no matter what literary genre they happen to be.

 

[Speedwell]

Yes, I read it. I posted the link for your benefit because you're confused about the Fathers.

LOL! And I thought you were the one who was confused.

That article was about inspiration and inerrancy and, considering the source, seemed pretty even-handed, though I haven't verified the quotations from the fathers. However, it did not address the modern version of "literal inerrancy" promoted by creationists.

 

[KWCrazy]

So this is not meant to question my faith (emphasis mine):

No, I pointed out that anything you post which contradicts what Jesus taught is by definition a lie because everything Christ said was truth. And Jesus did say in John 5 "For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?"

You have made it perfectly clear that you do not believe what Moses wrote. I have no interest in what you believe, only what you post and what you post is contrary to the Scriptures.

 

[KWCrazy]

Bad argument. There is textual evidence that Ex 20:11 is not part of the Ten Commandments. It may be, but the issue is not certain.

Hmmm. How could we prove your statement false? I know! Let's post the actual text!!
1 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

So is it part of the ten commandments????

Taking a small portion of the Bible and determining that it is allegory does not mean that the whole rest of the Bible must be allegory.

By what standard do you determine the portions of the Bible which contradict the lie of evolution are allegory? They aren't written as allegory. They aren't referred to as allegory. Neither Christ nor the apostles told us they were allegory. Who made that decision? And why? Do you think the Lord is incapable of telling us He made the Heavens and earth and then not telling us how? No, there was a purpose for everything the Lord did including giving man the choice to either follow His simple instructions or to rebel and invite death into the world.

No, God told Moses how the world was created and you chose not to accept it.

 

[EpiscipalMe]

No, I pointed out that anything you post which contradicts what Jesus taught is by definition a lie because everything Christ said was truth. And Jesus did say in John 5 "For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?"

You have made it perfectly clear that you do not believe what Moses wrote. I have no interest in what you believe, only what you post and what you post is contrary to the Scriptures.

You mean contradicts your interpretation of what Jesus taught.

Also, to really blow your mind, I'll tell you that I don't believe Moses wrote the Pentateuch.

 

[Speedwell]

Hmmm. How could we prove your statement false? I know! Let's post the actual text!!
1 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

That's not the text, it's an English translation.

By what standard do you determine the portions of the Bible which contradict the lie of evolution are allegory?

Biblical scholarship. It has nothing to do with evolution. If the "lie of evolution" was overturned tomorrow, it would not change my opinion of Genesis.

They aren't written as allegory. They aren't referred to as allegory. Neither Christ nor the apostles told us they were allegory.

You expect to be told?

 

[KWCrazy]

Also, to really blow your mind, I'll tell you that I don't believe Moses wrote the Pentateuch.

I already knew you didn't believe that. Most TE's use that excuse.
When you come up with Scriptures that back what you say let me know.

 

[EpiscipalMe]

I already knew you didn't believe that. Most TE's use that excuse.
When you come up with Scriptures that back what you say let me know.

No scripture that I am aware of. Just lots of scholarship.

Doesn't change the lessons taught, though.

 

[KWCrazy]

No scripture that I am aware of. Just lots of scholarship.
Doesn't change the lessons taught, though.

On what basis do the words of men override the clear word of God?
The creation of man doesn't fit with evolution, so the Bible is wrong?
The Great Flood doesn't fit with evolution so the Bible is wrong?
A human body can't re-animate after being dead for three days and decaying so the Bible is wrong?
Ax heads don't float so the Bible is wrong?
A man can't spend 3 days in the belly of a "great fish" and survive so the Bible is wrong?
Virgins can't conceive so the Bible is wrong?
The Fourth Commandment mentions a six day creation so the Bible is wrong?

What does science say about the existence of the Holy Ghost? Angels? Demons? Other supernatural entities whose existence cannot be physically proven?
Science is the study of the physical world around us. As a field of study it's first rate. As a tool to make our lives better it is unsurpassed. As a god it is lacking. The Creator is lord of the creation. The final authority lies not with natural law but with God's will. Lose sight of that and you will lose your way.