Dinosaurs and Humans Coexisting! (My Thoughts on the Creation Museum)

AV1611VET said:

When I'm wrong, people don't die.

If you disagree with that, show me one person whom I killed.

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You don't seem to understand that if you had your way countless people WOULD did. It is a good thing that you and your beliefs are so insignificant. You appear to be rather jealous of those that have made a difference in the world.

Tree of Life said:

I'm sorry I don't see a huge difference between this and my option (2).

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Here's your Option 2:

The earth is young and God created it in 6 literal days. Modern science is not wrong. It's right. However, God created a mature world with apparent age. God created trees with rings. Adam appeared 30 years old when in reality he was only 1 day old. God created the earth with oil deposits in it. And God created the world with dinosaur bones in it. But dinosaurs did not actually walk the earth.

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I'll parse and comment.

The earth is young and God created it in 6 literal days.

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The earth is as old as God created it. If you say that's "young," that's your prerogative; but scientists disagree, and I'm going to side with them on this one. However old they say it is, that's fine with me. But under no circumstances whatsoever will I agree it has been in existence longer than 6020 years. So it may be 4.5 billion years old physically; but it's 6020 years old existentially.

Modern science is not wrong.

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Modern science is wrong in that they say the earth "grew old." It didn't grow old. It came into existence old.

It's right.

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Modern science is right until it contradicts the Bible; then it can take a hike.

However, God created a mature world with apparent age.

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I agree -- but the age is real, not just apparent.

God created trees with rings.

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I disagree. Tree rings are considered scars; and God didn't create a scarred universe.

Adam appeared 30 years old when in reality he was only 1 day old.

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Adam was 30 years old physically; 1 day old existentially.

God created the earth with oil deposits in it.

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Indeed He did.

And God created the world with dinosaur bones in it.

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I disagree.

But dinosaurs did not actually walk the earth.

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I disagree.

And AV is back to his "God lied" claims, even though he will not own up to that.

Tree of Life said:

So you simply think that the human author was mistaken? Or that the human author's intent was to write mythology?

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humans in the Holy Spirit were inspired to write what they wrote and it so happens that someone can write out much more than they consciously grasp. but in general I see the bible being written by wise men and so i think they in some measure understood what they wrote.

Tree of Life said:

So when Genesis 1 says "and there was evening and there was morning, the first day", what does it mean? How should we interpret those words?

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the quick answer is in this color, scroll down.

there is more hidden wisdom than revealed in the bible and it's hard to speak about what i want to say because so many things are being said. I'm trying to find a way to express this simple part that you ask about. it's hard for me. i'm going to ramble best I can. it's not like I fully grasp the Nature of the Trinity and this is what it's ultimately about, though I understand that the Trinity is how God acts within himself to create and to commune with himself. remember that all things are inside of God, there is no where to be but God because only he IS... in the ultimate sense of the meaning of reality. but he afforded an space for creation to be within himself... as the jews say, God empties himself in order to create.

the creation myth trys to sum up reality and vaguely describes something that the original Word, that created the universe, is the original image of. and so it is a revelation of God from the second or the soul rather than the first or spirit because the soul is wedded to the spirit and the soul is like the woman of the spirit who is the man. the souls nature is feminine because when God takes the woman out of man from his rib, it shows the spirit is the macro reality and the soul is the micro reality even though they are the same adam before God put him in a slumber. so in the heavenly marriage the woman and man are reunited which is like a symbol of the universe becoming fully conscious again and its purpose for going to sleep ( the universe in it's current state) was to dream of it's perfect counterpart (we being conscious creatures and the universe at large being fundamentally proto-consciousnesses).

Gen 1:1-5 (YLT)
In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth-- the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters, and God saith, `Let light be;' and light is. And God seeth the light that it is good, and God separateth between the light and the darkness, and God calleth to the light `Day,' and to the darkness He hath called `Night;' and there is an evening, and there is a morning--day one.

this entire chapter seems to be about the soul being made in the image of God who is a Trinity. the first letter of the bible is a beth. that is the 2nd letter. it means house. the soul is Gods temple/home. also of note, the Son of God is the second person of the Trinity.

some dualities in here that are unified to make a whole are:
heavens and earth
waste and void
light and darkness
day and night
evening and morning


the Father and the Son go together and that is the kingdom of God which is the third person called the Holy Spirit. two always imply a third if they are in union.

there is not a heavens apart from an earth, they imply one another.

waste and void defines what the earth was so that is another 3.

light and dark go together as well. God calls the light good, and it is the symbol of the Sons divinity, though the darkness is too the Son but the darkness expresses the freedom of the humanity of Jesus rather than the freedom of the divinity (light) of Jesus. in Christ humanity is perfected but in the process of the development of the soul there is a duality until God saves us and completes us and we freely go to him. so God called the light out and called it good but does not do such with the darkness for this reason that will follow... for though God has command of the light he can not dominate the darkness and the Son too though freely picking God in his divinity seeing that he is called by God and then named good and is thus already one with his Father seeing that they are both light... the darkness must also freely pick God with the darkness part of his nature which is humanity and creation and of which is totally other than the nature of God. and yet in the Son those two are in that most profound and perfected state and the entire process of the creation of our soul and of all of reality is inside of this mystery that the Trinity is having.

so in each of us there is a part that God calls and that answers to God but we as darkness must also cast ourselves to God fully for though God gave us those divine potentials to be his child, which the light is a symbol of the divine seed, that darkness is our own freedom that must also freely give itself to God, it is the hope of God when he said "our whole eye should be single" and that the seed of light fill the fullness of the darkness least we remain separated from God and cut off from that higher revelation of Gods light that is in us, so it is not good to remain separated from the darkness and originally the light and darkness were one.

so the light is like a tree of life and if it sprouts in the darkness then the darkness too performs it's proper place but if this dark ground of our freedom does not have a light sprout up and grown to God then it remains darkness and God does not call us, for we have not given ear and therefore light does not go out, but remains hidden. and yet in the calling out of light from darkness, the darkness is not annihilated but it performs it's own actions in relation to the light because the Son of God is fully human and fully God and this is his nature forever.

or another way of looking at the darkness and light is that the darkness is Gods other but the power of the holy spirit overshadows this mary the virgin and this darkness called mary the virgin gives birth to the light. so Gods wholly other is that which God uses to give birth to his Son and the father is like the son being a blinding light and the son like the father, being a light. yet the Father is always greater than or transcended to the Son because he is the Father of the Son but in that union they have always had, they gave birth to themselves. for the son reveals the father and the father reveals the son.

day and night make a total day and they seem like opposites but then further it is said

"evening and morning the first day"... and evening and morning imply either an going down of the sun when light turns into darkness and of a coming up of the sun which is darkness turning into light. and this signifies the profound union of what at first would appear to be a separation. it is both a separation and a union, it is both because of the preservation of the mystery of the Trinity.... for the yin and yang have doors in one another and flow into one another.

for the 6 days it is said "evening and morning the X day" because at the end of each day of creation it is complete and whole in itself though at the first it appears to be a duality/seperation. yet evening and morning are darkness and light together.

thats the best i can do for now, sorry.

AV1611VET said:

Book?

I'm talking about much more than the Book.

I'm talking about Christian edifices, holidays, iconography, martyrs, holidays, documentation, and other things.

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Completely irrelevant. It's all based on the stories in the book.

Meanwhile, you think plants were photosynthesizing BEFORE they actually existed as plants. You obviously don't know what you are talking about when it comes to science.

Kylie said:

Meanwhile, you think plants were photosynthesizing BEFORE they actually existed as plants. You obviously don't know what you are talking about when it comes to science.

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What kick-started the plants then?

AV1611VET said:

What kick-started the plants then?

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Photosynthesis had a very early start, there is no fossil record of it. This article may help:

Early Evolution of Photosynthesis

Kylie said:

You obviously don't know what you are talking about when it comes to science.

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In his defense, he does have "SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE" in his user profile. At least he's honest about his lack of scientific acumen.

Tree of Life said:

If you've got a third option for those who hold to the Regular Day View then I'm all ears.

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I'm not familiar with the regular day view, is it simply the view that Genesis is referring to literal 24-hour days in creation? If so, I would not hold that view at all.

Tree of Life said:

Ok. Well it just looks to me like you're refusing to take a position on the meaning of the text.

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I think this is sort of where we are as Christians today. Scientific discoveries and our understanding of an old earth is something maybe 300 years old or so. Which is long enough for us to test and observe and to ponder and really critique. And, we have made it to this position where we can say with confidence, the earth is old.

So, our next step is to say, ok, what does that mean with relation to God and Genesis? Some people abandon faith, unfortunately. Some people are strengthened in faith and in further awe of Gods great power. Some people put their head in the sand and just straight up deny all science. So, the community is attempting to establish and identity. Trying to establish an understanding of, just exactly what it is God is saying, or what is the in depth meaning in each and every word and idea contained in Genesis.

And these questions are what brings us here. And there is no shame in being open about these questions, or being open about not fully understanding God or scripture.

Hank77 said:

I have asked many Christians that say they literally believe what the Bible says but when I ask them about Revelation they don't believe the scorpions and locust are literally scorpions and locust but represent war machines such as tanks and helicopters.

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Wow, a plague of helicopters would be pretty scary...

AV1611VET said:

What kick-started the plants then?

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Plants evolved from earlier forms of life that were not plants.

So "kind begets kind" can take a hike.

sethrak said:

Atheism is a religion,

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...in exactly the same way:
- "not playing soccer" is a sport
- "barefoot" is a type of shoe
- "naked" is a type of clothing
- "bald" is a hairstyle
- "off" is a tv channel
- "not collecting stamps" is a hobby
- "unemployed" is a job.
- .....etc......

and the followers believe and accept their faith without a shred of proof, and have fellowship with their kind, there is more than one sect as the don't all follow the same nothing.

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No, that's theism.

AV1611VET said:

Atheism goes much deeper than just rejecting claims.

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It actually doesn't.

That's because atheism is an active religion.

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No, it isn't.

Atheists have been behind getting the Bible out of school, the Ten Commandments off of courthouse lawns, evolution being taught as fact, attempts to get IN GOD WE TRUST and ONE NATION UNDER GOD removed from our coins and pledge respectively, and a host of other antichrist activities.

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None of which has anything to do with having active, positive faith-based beliefs in whatever claims. Quite the opposite, in fact.

ps: perhaps you aren't aware of this, but do you realise that there are plenty of theists who also fight for the importance of a secular society? For example, I've walked right alongside catholics in protests against the displaying of religious symbols in government buildings.

That religious community was, literally, cooperating with a non-religious humanist group in organizing said protest.

TagliatelliMonster said:

...in exactly the same way:
- "not playing soccer" is a sport
- "barefoot" is a type of shoe
- "naked" is a type of clothing
- "bald" is a hairstyle
- "off" is a tv channel
- "not collecting stamps" is a hobby
- "unemployed" is a job.
- .....etc......

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No.

Atheism is a religion in the same way:

1. denying soccer exists
2. denying bare feed exists
3. denying balding exists
4. denying "off" exists
5. denying stamps exist
6. denying unemployment exists
7. .....etc......

AV1611VET said:

No.

Atheism is a religion in the same way:

1. denying soccer exists
2. denying bare feed exists
3. denying balding exists
4. denying "off" exists
5. denying stamps exist
6. denying unemployment exists
7. .....etc......

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Nope.

I'm actually an atheist, I think I know better then you what I believe / deny / disbelieve / accept.

TagliatelliMonster said:

None of which has anything to do with having active, positive faith-based beliefs in whatever claims.

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Right.

And I'm Genghis Khan.

Atheists do it just to have something to do, do they?

Are they that bored that they have to target Christianity in America?

TagliatelliMonster said:

I'm actually an atheist, I think I know better then you what I believe / deny / disbelieve / accept.

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You do!?

What's God's name?