differences between Jews Christians and Muslims

[Paul12]

Hi all,

I was wondering if someone could fill me in on Islam, and why conservative Christians seem to hate it so much. From what I get, we Christians are much closer to Islam than we are to Judaism, yet the conservatives seem to favor Jews much more. Can anyone fill me in on the main differences between a Jew and a Muslim, cause when it comes down to the basics, they seem identical. Just a curious history student looking for some info.

 

[lared]

A most important aspect of any religion to consider is the identity of God.

Jews, Moslems, and Jehovah's Witnesses worship a heavenly Father.

Christendom (the churches) on the other hand worship a 3 in 1 god known as the holy trinity or trinity god.

 

[TWells]

A most important aspect of any religion to consider is the identity of God.

Jews, Moslems, and Jehovah's Witnesses worship a heavenly Father.

Christendom (the churches) on the other hand worship a 3 in 1 god known as the holy trinity or trinity god.

The Christian view of God is the continuation of early Jewish beliefs in His word concerning Gods nature. Jesus said he was God's "Wisdom", a concept that was around in Judaism long before Christianity. The Jewish monotheistic view was not a numerical statement about God's essence but stating what God was not.

why conservative Christians seem to hate it so much

As a conservative Christian I dont hate Muslims nor do I think other conservatives do, we wish to reach them that they may come to a knowledge of the truth as we believe their religion is a false one. Some take a very hardline approach because the current terrorist situation.

yet the conservatives seem to favor Jews much more.

Most fundamentalists because of their dispensational endtimes views are staunch-no-matter-what supporters of Israel.

 

[lared]

Christendom's viewpoint of God is repugnant to most Jews. They reject the pagan trinity doctrine and worship only a singular god.

The same with Moslems. They cannot accept a pagan trinity god.

Jehovah's Witnesses are Christian who worship only the Father and yet accept Jesus as the Messiah.

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Paul12, this http://www.jewfaq.org/toc.htm is a very good introduction-to-Judaism site. It has articles on all aspects of Jewish belief & practice. Good luck. Please feel free to ask me any questions!

Be well!

ssv

 

[TWells]

Christendom's viewpoint of God is repugnant to most Jews. They reject the pagan trinity doctrine and worship only a singular god.

The same with Moslems. They cannot accept a pagan trinity god.

Jehovah's Witnesses are Christian who worship only the Father and yet accept Jesus as the Messiah.

Hey lared

Of course Judaism had views comparable with triniarianism and a plurality within the Godhead prior to Christianity as evidenced by Wisdom theology in the OT, intertestamental literature, Daniel, Philo etc. Their views today are a more knee-jerk reaction to Christianity.

JW's of course simply fix the problem by changing the translation.

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

TWells posted:

Of course Judaism had views comparable with triniarianism and a plurality within the Godhead prior to Christianity as evidenced by Wisdom theology in the OT, intertestamental literature, Daniel, Philo etc.

1) Howzat?

Their views today are a more knee-jerk reaction to Christianity.

1) Howzat?

2) Don't flatter yourselves!

Be well!

ssv

 

[lared]

Changing the translation?

A large number of Witnesses do not use the New World Translation because it is not available in their native tongue, and yet they do not worship the trinity god.

Also, the New World Translation was not produced until the 1950- 1960's. Prior to that, the King James or other versions were used. They did not switch gods at that time but continued to worship the same God that Jesus worshiped---only the heavenly Father.

Your insight is incorrect and misleading.

 

[TWells]

Hey stillsmallvoice

Hi all!
1) Howzat? & 1) Howzat?

Old Testament Wisdom literature and intertestamental Wisdom literature and other writings show that the Jews of the period had no problem personifying some of God's attributes. Wisdom was viewed as the creative power in which God created the universe and while being a "person" herself (such as in Wisdom of Solomon) claimed the role of and equality with God. The Jews of the time and Biblical writers didnt see this as a corruption of their monotheistic views but as a way to describe a supreme God acting within the world. Jesus (and the NT writers) claimed to be Wisdom.

2) Don't flatter yourselves!

I think this is pretty well documented.

Hey lared,

Your insight is incorrect and misleading.

It was meant to be a general statement but nevertheless its obvious the Watchtower purposely uses a mistranslation, many of which are statments of Jesus's divinity, John 1:1 for example.

 

[lared]

True, to use the word 'a' in John 1:1 is up to the translator's discretion.

It is not a mistranslation, though you may not agree with it.

Rather it clarifies.

Just as in English, one may read----"You shut the door." Who is one talking to? One or more people?

In Spanish, there is no problem. They use Usted (singular) or Ustedes (plural).

The use of "a" clarifies,...... and you know what.....it harmonizes beautifully with the surrounding verses.....just as one who is reading the context of "You shut the door."

 

[TWells]

True, to use the word 'a' in John 1:1 is up to the translator's discretion.

It is not a mistranslation, though you may not agree with it.

Rather it clarifies.

Just as in English, one may read----"You shut the door." Who is one talking to? One or more people?

In Spanish, there is no problem. They use Usted (singular) or Ustedes (plural).

The use of "a" clarifies,...... and you know what.....it harmonizes beautifully with the surrounding verses.....just as one who is reading the context of "You shut the door."

To say in English that the "Word"...."was God" or "was a god" completely changes the entire chapter. John goes to great pains to make it clear that there is the Word and God and they are both one. We know exactly why the Watchtower has decided to go against Greek scholarship on this verse.

 

[sojeru]

hi all
Kabbalistic judaism has a view on the person of Hashem.
We say that Hashem is MANIFETED in 3, however HE IS ONE PERSON
he can manifest himself either in 2 or in three.

however, i recomend that people should study with a rabbi- the ancient of days and the man on the clouds were manifestations of Hashem
as recognized by Zohar
But study with a rabbi- a lot more insight would be given,
however to understand properly- one must under go strenuous amount of study in Torah.

shalom u'bracha

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi TWells!

You posted:

Old Testament Wisdom literature and intertestamental Wisdom literature and other writings show that the Jews of the period had no problem personifying some of God's attributes. Wisdom was viewed as the creative power in which God created the universe and while being a "person" herself (such as in Wisdom of Solomon) claimed the role of and equality with God. The Jews of the time and Biblical writers didnt see this as a corruption of their monotheistic views but as a way to describe a supreme God acting within the world.

While books such as Proverbs do personify Wisdom (in the feminine as you noted, the Hebrew word khokhma is indeed feminine), and while Jews then & now had/have no problem in personifying Wisdom per se, this is strictly metaphorical/poetic. Reading this & concluding that the Jews of the time believed in "a multiplicity of persons within the Godhead", is reading just a teensy-weensy bit too much into this, in my humble Jewish opinion. The Wisdom of Solomon is no authority. Our Sages excluded it (and the other Apochryphal & Pseudipigraphic books) from the Tanakh because it contained (heretical and/or borderline heretical) concepts that didn't jibe with the Torah. The idea of Personified Wisdom being equal with God is altogether foreign to Judaism & always has been because it, like full-blown trinitarianism, is (in our view) a corruption of pure monotheism.

I think this is pretty well documented.

Can you provide details please?

Be well!

ssv

 

[lared]

T Wells,

John chapter 17 is a prayer from Jesus to his heavenly Father.

Two persons in two different locales.

Verse 3 helps one to see that everlasting life hinges upon .....not knowing a trinity god...but rather two persons......the Father and the son....Jehovah and Jesus.

This thread originally deals with the contrast between Jews, Christians, and Moslems.

Certainly the facts indicate that Jews do not worship a trinity God nor did any faithful Jews in the past.

Moslems have a distaste for the pagan trinity god as well.

 

[TWells]

Hey Stillsmallvoice

While books such as Proverbs do personify Wisdom (in the feminine as you noted, the Hebrew word khokhma is indeed feminine), and while Jews then & now had/have no problem in personifying Wisdom per se, this is strictly metaphorical/poetic.

What exactly is it a metaphor for? The descriptions in scripture and intertestamental literature seem way to detailed to be "poetic".

Reading this & concluding that the Jews of the time believed in "a multiplicity of persons within the Godhead", is reading just a teensy-weensy bit too much into this,

I would agree with you that the Jews didnt have anything as advanced as persons within the Godhead but there is evidence in scripture of various powers within God with their own personalities in reference to the way he interacted with man. There are others "Elohim" for instace but I dont want to start a debate on that. There are other writings such as Philo and intertestamental literature to attest to this as well.

in my humble Jewish opinion. The Wisdom of Solomon is no authority. Our Sages excluded it (and the other Apochryphal & Pseudipigraphic books) from the Tanakh because it contained (heretical and/or borderline heretical) concepts that didn't jibe with the Torah.

We dont consider it scripture either but what they do tell us however is how the Jews of the period viewed God. It is my belief as put forth by scholars like Ben Witherington and NT Wright that monotheism was not meant to be a numerical statement about Gods nature but to state what He was not (other gods etc.) and that the numerical view was largely a the result of reaction against Christianity and the influence of Hellenistic culture. I guess that basically the ANE met the west.

The idea of Personified Wisdom being equal with God is altogether foreign to Judaism & always has been because it, like full-blown trinitarianism, is (in our view) a corruption of pure monotheism.

And of course we differ here. I think to say that intertestamental writings (and Biblical) that did personify Wisdom and others that equated the Son of Man with God equally and sharing His throne, written my monotheistic Jews as being a just blatant corruption by pagan ideas is a way, way to simplistic view. I think the question for them was not so much "What God is" but "Who God Is". Christianity took this and clarified it with Gods final revelation to man about Himself.

In Christ,

Travis

 

[TWells]

T Wells,

John chapter 17 is a prayer from Jesus to his heavenly Father.

Two persons in two different locales.

Verse 3 helps one to see that everlasting life hinges upon .....not knowing a trinity god...but rather two persons......the Father and the son....Jehovah and Jesus.

This thread originally deals with the contrast between Jews, Christians, and Moslems.

Certainly the facts indicate that Jews do not worship a trinity God nor did any faithful Jews in the past.

Moslems have a distaste for the pagan trinity god as well.

Well, you certainly didnt respond to anything I stated concerning Wisdom and evidence that they did have these views.

The problem you have is that you cant harmonize the difference between the Father and Son with the obvious claims of deity and equality with the Father that Jesus made. Nor can you harmonize this with the fact that Jesus claimed to be the divine incarnation of God's Wisdom and that is the view given by the Apostles as well.

 

[lared]

Why do you say that I can't do something when you also mention that I did not respond to your issues.

That is being a bit presumptious.

I am just one person. I see you have a big job on your hands with the millions and millions of Jews and Moslems around the world.

 

[TWells]

Im saying your view cant harmonize all that scripture states about Christ.

 

[lared]

Yes, and that is why christendom (the churches) are hopelessly divided.

Each denomination believing that its own view is correct and that the others' view cannot harmonize with scripture----whether it be Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Amish, Quaker, Mormon, Southern Baptist, Foursquare, Episcopal, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Etc.

 

[TWells]

And that means exactly what?

Whats your solution? - that we all just give up and agree with you?