Differences and Similarities between the OCA and ROCOR

[Colleen1]

I think you may be confused about this. White Russians are Russians who fled Bolshevik rule.

Yes

Thanks, I think in a sense they both fit.

 

[Fotina]

From what I've studied in school and the discussions I've had with certain White Russians, this seems to be the best available description:

"A white émigré was a Russian who emigrated from Russia in the wake of the Russian Revolution and Russian Civil War, and who was in opposition to the contemporary Russian political climate. "White émigré" is a political term mostly used in France, the United States, and the UK. A less politically oriented term used in the same countries by the immigrants themselves and by the native population is First wave émigré (Эмигрант первой волны). In the USSR in 1920s–1980s the term White émigré (Белоэмигрант) generally had negative connotations. Since the end of the 1980s the term "first wave émigré" has become more common in Russia.
Many white émigrés were participants in the White movement or supported it, although the term is often broadly applied to anyone who may have left the country due to the change in regimes (some of them, like Mensheviks and Socialist-Revolutionaries, were opposed to the Bolsheviks but had not supported the White movement; some were just apolitical), as well as to the descendants of those who left and still retain a Russian Orthodox Christian identity while living abroad. The term "white émigrés" (белоэмигранты, белая эмиграци&#1103 was much more often used in the Soviet Union, where it had a strong negative connotation, than by the émigrés themselves, who preferred to call themselves simply "Russian émigrés" (русская эмиграцi&#1103 or "Russian military émigrés"(русская военная эмиграцi&#1103 if they participated in the White movement.
Most white émigrés left Russia from 1917 to 1920 (estimates vary between 900,000 and 2 million), although some managed to leave during the twenties and thirties or were exiled by the Soviet Government (such as, for example, philosopher Ivan Ilyin). They spanned all classes and included military soldiers and officers, Cossacks, intellectuals of various professions, dispossessed businessmen and landowners, as well as officials of the Russian Imperial Government and various anti-Bolshevik governments of the Russian Civil War period. They were not only ethnic Russians but belonged to other ethnic groups as well." From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Apparently, their faith is based in Orthodoxy but it differs from Greek Orthodoxy and here in Canada they are considered 'White Russian'. Again, I don't want to over step in my assertions here but I did say I would relay what I found out regarding this topic.

Rocor and OCA both belong (and the Greek, Russian, Antiochian, etc. jurisdictions) to Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops so both considered canonical and in Eucharistic communion (by virtue of sharing the same faith) with the rest of Holy Orthodoxy. Some differences in practice have been noted, but the liturgy, worship, faith is the same. 'White Russian" is not a jurisdiction.

 

[Colleen1]

Rocor and OCA both belong (and the Greek, Russian, Antiochian, etc. jurisdictions) to Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops so both considered canonical and in Eucharistic communion (by virtue of sharing the same faith) with the rest of Holy Orthodoxy. Some differences in practice have been noted, but the liturgy, worship, faith is the same. 'White Russian" is not a jurisdiction.

Thanks for your comment.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

Rocor and OCA both belong (and the Greek, Russian, Antiochian, etc. jurisdictions) to Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops so both considered canonical and in Eucharistic communion (by virtue of sharing the same faith) with the rest of Holy Orthodoxy. Some differences in practice have been noted, but the liturgy, worship, faith is the same. 'White Russian" is not a jurisdiction.

Yes, Colleen1, Fotina is right. Although there are different cultures and specific histories of each jurisdiction, there is just one Orthodox Church. If what you're speaking of is Russians who fled during the Bolshevik revolution, they are most likely ROCOR. ROCOR is in communion with the Greek Orthodox Church and everyone else.

M.

 

[Colleen1]

Yes, Collen1, although there are different cultures and specific histories of each jurisdiction, there is just one Orthodox Church. If what your speaking of is Russians who fled during the Bolshevik revolution, they are most likely ROCOR. ROCOR is in communion with the Greek Orthodox Church and everyone else.

M.

Yes, I understand thanks. I was just trying to best relay the information I was given by the lady I spoke to.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

From what I understood Paul to mean was a woman's hair was her covering, but it really doesn't matter to me. I have no problem with head coverings. I just feel uncomfortable wearing them because I'm not used to it. I suppose if I were to practice doing so, I would, but then my priest would probably not permit me to do so because it would seem odd and maybe cause scandal in my church since hardly anyone covers, and all of a sudden I am...may make me look like some prideful hack.

Just FYI, no Church Father had the interpretation that a woman's hair was the only covering necessary. Here is what St. John Chrysostom says:

"And if [the hair] be given her for a covering, say you, wherefore need she add another covering? That not nature only, but also her own will may have part in her acknowledgment of subjection. For that you ought to be covered nature herself by anticipation enacted a law. Add now, I pray, your own part also, that you may not seem to subvert the very laws of nature; a proof of most insolent rashness , to buffet not only with us, but with nature also."

Again, not saying that anyone needs to change anything. I'm simply putting forth what the Scriptures, Fathers and historic practice of the church say about it.

M.

 

[Blackknight]

ROCOR is Russian and therefore Communist. Communism == bad.

I kid, I kid.

 

[MariaRegina]

Head coverings were only recently discarded -- back in the early 1960s.

When I was a child, I remember seeing President Kennedy's wife, Jacqueline, who wore hats and gloves as was the fashion then.

Why did women feel the need to discard wearing hats and gloves outside?
These fashion accessories were worn not only to church but also shopping, whenever a lady went outside her home. My mom only removed her gloves at the restaurant when she was eating her meal.

Today, wearing a head covering and modest clothing helps to keep me focused on what is important in the Divine Liturgy.

 

[MariaRegina]

Sheesh! When I was in the OCA, most of the women frowned on any woman who wore a scarf, hat, or head covering. Many of the women wore plunging V necks and short skirts. Worse, the women who did wear long skirts did not wear slips underneath their transparent skirts with huge slits, so that everything showed. And our pastor refused to do anything lest he incur the wrath of his wife who was encouraging the teens to come to the Divine Liturgy with the skimpy dresses that they wore. Her rationale: it was better that they come with short skirts and plunging necklines than not come at all.

Well, guess what, they did come, and they shocked everyone as it was like a Vogue fashion show, but we were told to keep quiet. Later they left the OCA and the Orthodox Church, never to darken the doorsteps again.

 

[Dorothea]

Just FYI, no Church Father had the interpretation that a woman's hair was the only covering necessary. Here is what St. John Chrysostom says:

"And if [the hair] be given her for a covering, say you, wherefore need she add another covering? That not nature only, but also her own will may have part in her acknowledgment of subjection. For that you ought to be covered nature herself by anticipation enacted a law. Add now, I pray, your own part also, that you may not seem to subvert the very laws of nature; a proof of most insolent rashness , to buffet not only with us, but with nature also."

Again, not saying that anyone needs to change anything. I'm simply putting forth what the Scriptures, Fathers and historic practice of the church say about it.

M.

I know you go to a church that encourages wearing head coverings. I've never been to one that has, and that has been in two Antiochian parishes, and the rest Greek. I'm sorry that you don't like that I choose not to wear a head scarf. I'm obedient to my spiritual father who doesn't say it's necessary at our parish.

 

[Dorothea]

I wish the subject of head coverings would quit coming up in this forum because hurt feelings and not good feelings come out between our brethren because of this. I don't need to be reminded often of how our Russian brethren look down up us Greeks.

Yes, that's how it feels to me in here when this subject comes up. And it's not just on this forum. It's IRL.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

I know you go to a church that encourages wearing head coverings. I've never been to one that has, and that has been in two Antiochian parishes, and the rest Greek. I'm sorry that you don't like that I choose not to wear a head scarf. I'm obedient to my spiritual father who doesn't say it's necessary at our parish.

Wow, Dorothea! I thought I went out of my way over and over again to make it clear that I was not suggesting that anyone-- individually or jurisdictionally-- should think they need to change anything in regard to headcoverings. I know I typed it a least twice in this thread. I will say it again:

I do not think that anyone needs to change any custom or practice in regard to headcovering. I really, really, really, don't think anyone needs to adopt a different practice at all.

You do what is right for you and I support you in that.

Just know that when the topic comes up, I will give information, just as when we discuss icons, original sin, infant baptism, monasteries, or anything else. Information is not personal judgement. Information is information.

M.

 

[Dorothea]

Wow, Dorothea! I thought I went out of my way over and over again to make it clear that I was not suggesting that anyone-- individually or jurisdictionally-- should think they need to change anything in regard to headcoverings. I know I typed it a least twice in this thread. I will say it again:

I do not think that anyone needs to change any custom or practice in regard to headcovering. I really, really, really, don't think anyone needs to adopt a different practice at all.

You do what is right for you and I support you in that.

Just know that when the topic comes up, I will give information, just as when we discuss icons, original sin, infant baptism, monasteries, or anything else. Information is not personal judgement. Information is information.

M.

Ok. I am just not going to talk about it any more, if you don't mind. I shouldn't have commented in this thread anyway because it wasn't about head coverings or even my church.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

I wish the subject of head coverings would quit coming up in this forum because hurt feelings and not good feelings come out between our brethren because of this. I don't need to be reminded often of how our Russian brethren look down up us Greeks.

Yes, that's how it feels to me in here when this subject comes up. And it's not just on this forum. It's IRL.

I go to Greek churches. I like Greek churches. I visit them. I love Greek food. I don't look down on Greek orthodox customs.

M.

 

[Dorothea]

I go to Greek churches. I like Greek churches. I visit them. I love Greek food. I don't look down on Greek orthodox customs.

M.

I'm glad to read that. I never felt anything badly about any other church's traditions or whatnot. It's just kinda sore subject to me in the parish and area where I am where our church has indeed been looked down upon. I don't mean to paint a broad brush that this is true with all "Russian" churches, because the OCA up in Calhan is very friendly to us.

 

[Colleen1]

ROCOR is Russian and therefore Communist. Communism == bad.

I kid, I kid.

Now now be nice.

 

[Colleen1]

Head coverings were only recently discarded -- back in the early 1960s.

When I was a child, I remember seeing President Kennedy's wife, Jacqueline, who wore hats and gloves as was the fashion then.

Why did women feel the need to discard wearing hats and gloves outside?
These fashion accessories were worn not only to church but also shopping, whenever a lady went outside her home. My mom only removed her gloves at the restaurant when she was eating her meal.

Today, wearing a head covering and modest clothing helps to keep me focused on what is important in the Divine Liturgy.

Well, I think the '60's' and some of what came with the 60's had a bit to do with the disappearance of those mannerisms (head scarves, gloves, etc.). I'm not saying it's better or worse; I'm just saying.

 

[Colleen1]

Yes, Colleen1, Fotina is right. Although there are different cultures and specific histories of each jurisdiction, there is just one Orthodox Church. If what you're speaking of is Russians who fled during the Bolshevik revolution, they are most likely ROCOR. ROCOR is in communion with the Greek Orthodox Church and everyone else.

M.

Hi, I spoke to someone else, another White Russian lady, and we talked a bit about this subject so I could get a clearer understanding and double check things a bit regarding what I was told previously. She told me the best term would be Old Believers. She confirmed she believed in Orthodoxy. Then she gave me her view of how they fit with the Orthodoxy Churches in general. Again, I don't wish to over step in any way and I'm not comfortable speaking for another. However, I just wished to clarify for discussion sake.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

Ah, ok. Before, I suggested that you might be referring to Old Believers or Old Ritualists. They are another story. Most are not in communion with the Orthodox Church. Some continue to use the "old rite" and have joined ROCOR or the MP. Some no longer have priests because there aren't bishops to ordain them.

Their day to day lives are quite different. For example, their married women cover their heads at all times with a shashmura and a scarf. They tend to be agricultural here in the US.

M.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I think modesty isn't based on hair. If a woman is showing a ton of thigh and cleavage, that's going to step over the line. If a woman is wearing thin material where things can be viewed, that's crossing the line....super tight clothing, etc.

But showing her hair? I realize it was in the Scriptures, but that was in the hellenistic world that Paul lived in at the time. Paul said and held a lot of other beliefs about women that we wouldn't beam on socially now either. I think we need to look at context. Covering hair was a definite Hellenistic value. I guess it's just a matter of how far one wants to take modesty. With my wife, I don't ask her to do it because, though I think my wife has lovely black hair, I don't think it's immodest or arousing to someone in the church building. I don't think her hair is somehow disrespectful or a sign to me or anyone else of much of anything. Some might consider eye shadow, rouge, and other makeup to be immodest. I wouldn't. And it seems odd when you see a man come in dressed sloppy but he makes sure his wife is covered head to toe.

I say, if someone wants to do this, fine. If not, fine. Personally, I'm much more comfortable surrounded by women who are not covered with these head-scarves. But that's just me. I'm more of Dorothea's thinking on this. I get tired of people making it sound like scarves = modesty but no scarf =.....well, hmmmm

It's a silly sore spot with people I think. Like I said, if I visited a parish that insists on it and finds covering ladies' hair that important, I'd comply in a New York minute. But otherwise, not into it much.

My wife said the other day that she'd like to buy a scarf for herself and Veronica because we're going to see the church where St. John of Shanghai is located in SF. It's ROCOR so we want to be respectful.

that is perfectly acceptable if you aren't. but in ROCOR, Old Rites, and to the even stricter Old Believers, modesty & tradition are very important. personally, i cover my hair in church because it blocks out all that secular energy for me. it's not done as a show but rather a submission & obedience to God.

Russian Old Believers - photo project by Mikhail Evstafiev - YouTube