Differences and Similarities between the OCA and ROCOR

Dorothea

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But I thought that the Greek Orthodox wore headscarves long before Islam was even around and that the Muslims copied the Orthodox, not the other way around?
Yeah, I know. Try convincing my mom of that. ^_^

I'm not a big fan either. If I visit a ROCOR church or somewhere wherein this is the norm, I'd naturally respect their parish and Kate would wear one. But I'm thankful that our priest, Father George, doesn't care in the least.
Yes. There are a few that wear headscarves at our Church. There is actually an elderly woman of Greek descent that wears one, and there is a family that were of Coptic Orthodox background that wear them. I remember the first time I went to the neighboring OCA for a pan-Orthodox Vespers during Great Lent. I went in a nice sweater, jeans, dress socks and flats. I felt like an idiot because I was the only woman in jeans (pants of any kind) and without a headscarf. I didn't realize at the time (this was several years ago) that that was the practice in the OCA, because that was my first visit. Vespers at my church is more casual, obviously. :sorry:

I was wondering also, are the women in Greek parishes allowed to pray out loud the post-communion thanksgiving prayers? My friend, godfather, said that in Alaska at his old Russian parish, they forbade women from taking communion before the men, and the women were not allowed to pray out loud the post-communion prayers.
Nobody reads the pre-communion or post-communion prayers out loud in our parish. It used to be the pre-communion prayers (you know the one about I believe this is Your Body and this Your precious Blood....) was read out loud, but a year or so after we were at the parish, Met. Isaiah sent letter saying not out loud anymore. There are no rules on that for just women. The whole parish doesn't do them out loud, unfortunately. I kinda liked when we did them out loud. I whisper them before it's time to go up for Communion.
 
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Colleen1

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No. I was never taught to. And cobweb is right on why Greeks don't feel comfortable wearing them. I'll give you an example. My priest told me to bring a headscarf in case I needed to wear one at one of the monasteries I visited in Greece. I brought it and put it on at one at Meteora. My mom got a bit uptight and said "Take that off! Everyone is going to think you're a Muslim!" True story.

Yes, considering the culture I can understand.
 
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Colleen1

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But I thought that the Greek Orthodox wore headscarves long before Islam was even around and that the Muslims copied the Orthodox, not the other way around?

I'm not a big fan either. If I visit a ROCOR church or somewhere wherein this is the norm, I'd naturally respect their parish and Kate would wear one. But I'm thankful that our priest, Father George, doesn't care in the least.

I was wondering also, are the women in Greek parishes allowed to pray out loud the post-communion thanksgiving prayers? My friend, godfather, said that in Alaska at his old Russian parish, they forbade women from taking communion before the men, and the women were not allowed to pray out loud the post-communion prayers.

Okay, interesting. I went to some Greek Orthodox churches growing up and the elderly generation wore them to church but not necessarily else where. However, my great grandmothers seemed to wear them all the time.
 
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TheVarangian

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To a large extent, ROCOR still prefers practices and customs associated with rural Imperial Russia from where most of the original clergy and parishioners originated. ROCOR has a more "Old World" feeling decorum than other jurisdictions. I should point out that as long as you're at least modestly dressed and not being disruptive or disrepectful, you're not going to get sent to the narthex or anything like that. Nothing is usually even said about unless it becomes habitual.
 
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Colleen1

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To a large extent, ROCOR still prefers practices and customs associated with rural Imperial Russia from where most of the original clergy and parishioners originated. ROCOR has a more "Old World" feeling decorum than other jurisdictions. I should point out that as long as you're at least modestly dressed and not being disruptive or disrepectful, you're not going to get sent to the narthex or anything like that. Nothing is usually even said about unless it becomes habitual.

Thanks for your response. :)
 
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Monica child of God 1

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Well, I don't know. I know they seem to be a culture unto themselves and seem to consider themselves different from Orthodoxy. I really hesitate saying anything. I have no desire to over step in any way. I will check this out more and post what I find.

Oh, they may be Old Ritualists aka Old Believers. They definitely have a separate culture.

But I thought that the Greek Orthodox wore headscarves long before Islam was even around and that the Muslims copied the Orthodox, not the other way around?

I'm not a big fan either. If I visit a ROCOR church or somewhere wherein this is the norm, I'd naturally respect their parish and Kate would wear one. But I'm thankful that our priest, Father George, doesn't care in the least.

Just a few words on veiling, though please note that I am not saying that any individual or jurisdiction must or should change their custom in any way at all:

*headcoverings for women are spoken of in the Scriptures
*multiple Church Fathers wrote encouraging the practice of veiling
*in virtually every icon of a female saint the subject is veiled &/or crowned in some way. These are saints from Africa, Europe, the middle east, and everywhere else spanning more than 1,000 years (st. Mary of egypt's veil likely fell to pieces along with her other clothes
*veiling was a universal practice in all of Christendom (orthodox, Protestant and catholic) until the mid 1960s

Make of it what you will.

I was wondering also, are the women in Greek parishes allowed to pray out loud the post-communion thanksgiving prayers? My friend, godfather, said that in Alaska at his old Russian parish, they forbade women from taking communion before the men, and the women were not allowed to pray out loud the post-communion prayers.

FWIW women in my ROCOR parish read pre and post communion prayers as well as prayers during matins, vigil and the hours.

M.
 
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zoebliss

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zoebliss

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Just a few words on veiling, though please note that I am not saying that any individual or jurisdiction must or should change their custom in any way at all:

*headcoverings for women are spoken of in the Scriptures
*multiple Church Fathers wrote encouraging the practice of veiling
*in virtually every icon of a female saint the subject is veiled &/or crowned in some way. These are saints from Africa, Europe, the middle east, and everywhere else spanning more than 1,000 years (st. Mary of egypt's veil likely fell to pieces along with her other clothes
*veiling was a universal practice in all of Christendom (orthodox, Protestant and catholic) until the mid 1960s

Make of it what you will.

M.
:amen::amen::amen:
 
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Monica child of God 1

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that is perfectly acceptable if you aren't. but in ROCOR, Old Rites, and to the even stricter Old Believers, modesty & tradition are very important. personally, i cover my hair in church because it blocks out all that secular energy for me. it's not done as a show but rather a submission & obedience to God.

Russian Old Believers - photo project by Mikhail Evstafiev - YouTube

I completely agree. There is something mystical about headcovering. As St. Paul says, we do it on account of the angels...

M.
 
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Colleen1

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that is perfectly acceptable if you aren't. but in ROCOR, Old Rites, and to the even stricter Old Believers, modesty & tradition are very important. personally, i cover my hair in church because it blocks out all that secular energy for me. it's not done as a show but rather a submission & obedience to God.

Russian Old Believers - photo project by Mikhail Evstafiev - YouTube

Thanks for posting the video. I'm just going by appearance here but some of the dress resembled my great grandparents and some dress was different and resembled more the 'White Russians'. Please understand I use this term because it is a term they themselves use. No disrespect is intended. :)
 
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snowpumpkin

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I completely agree. There is something mystical about headcovering. As St. Paul says, we do it on account of the angels...

M.

There is some speculation among scholars that Paul was influenced by the Book of Enoch when he said this.

Enoch explains how the angels were attracted to the 'daughters of men' and because of this Paul says to cover your hair in order to keep hidden from the view of the angels above us so we don't tempt them.

This is unorthodox of course but it's something that I read about somewhere.
 
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Colleen1

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From what I've studied in school and the discussions I've had with certain White Russians, this seems to be the best available description:

"A white émigré was a Russian who emigrated from Russia in the wake of the Russian Revolution and Russian Civil War, and who was in opposition to the contemporary Russian political climate. "White émigré" is a political term mostly used in France, the United States, and the UK. A less politically oriented term used in the same countries by the immigrants themselves and by the native population is First wave émigré (Эмигрант первой волны). In the USSR in 1920s–1980s the term White émigré (Белоэмигрант) generally had negative connotations. Since the end of the 1980s the term "first wave émigré" has become more common in Russia.
Many white émigrés were participants in the White movement or supported it, although the term is often broadly applied to anyone who may have left the country due to the change in regimes (some of them, like Mensheviks and Socialist-Revolutionaries, were opposed to the Bolsheviks but had not supported the White movement; some were just apolitical), as well as to the descendants of those who left and still retain a Russian Orthodox Christian identity while living abroad. The term "white émigrés" (белоэмигранты, белая эмиграция) was much more often used in the Soviet Union, where it had a strong negative connotation, than by the émigrés themselves, who preferred to call themselves simply "Russian émigrés" (русская эмиграцiя) or "Russian military émigrés"(русская военная эмиграцiя) if they participated in the White movement.
Most white émigrés left Russia from 1917 to 1920 (estimates vary between 900,000 and 2 million), although some managed to leave during the twenties and thirties or were exiled by the Soviet Government (such as, for example, philosopher Ivan Ilyin). They spanned all classes and included military soldiers and officers, Cossacks, intellectuals of various professions, dispossessed businessmen and landowners, as well as officials of the Russian Imperial Government and various anti-Bolshevik governments of the Russian Civil War period. They were not only ethnic Russians but belonged to other ethnic groups as well." From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Apparently, their faith is based in Orthodoxy but it differs from Greek Orthodoxy and here in Canada they are considered 'White Russian'. Again, I don't want to over step in my assertions here but I did say I would relay what I found out regarding this topic.
 
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Dorothea

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There is some speculation among scholars that Paul was influenced by the Book of Enoch when he said this.

Enoch explains how the angels were attracted to the 'daughters of men' and because of this Paul says to cover your hair in order to keep hidden from the view of the angels above us so we don't tempt them.

This is unorthodox of course but it's something that I read about somewhere.
From what I understood Paul to mean was a woman's hair was her covering, but it really doesn't matter to me. I have no problem with head coverings. I just feel uncomfortable wearing them because I'm not used to it. I suppose if I were to practice doing so, I would, but then my priest would probably not permit me to do so because it would seem odd and maybe cause scandal in my church since hardly anyone covers, and all of a sudden I am...may make me look like some prideful hack.
 
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Monica child of God 1

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From what I've studied in school and the discussions I've had with certain White Russians, this seems to be the best available description:

"A white émigré was a Russian who emigrated from Russia in the wake of the Russian Revolution and Russian Civil War, and who was in opposition to the contemporary Russian political climate. "White émigré" is a political term mostly used in France, the United States, and the UK. A less politically oriented term used in the same countries by the immigrants themselves and by the native population is First wave émigré (Эмигрант первой волны). In the USSR in 1920s–1980s the term White émigré (Белоэмигрант) generally had negative connotations. Since the end of the 1980s the term "first wave émigré" has become more common in Russia.
Many white émigrés were participants in the White movement or supported it, although the term is often broadly applied to anyone who may have left the country due to the change in regimes (some of them, like Mensheviks and Socialist-Revolutionaries, were opposed to the Bolsheviks but had not supported the White movement; some were just apolitical), as well as to the descendants of those who left and still retain a Russian Orthodox Christian identity while living abroad. The term "white émigrés" (белоэмигранты, белая эмиграция) was much more often used in the Soviet Union, where it had a strong negative connotation, than by the émigrés themselves, who preferred to call themselves simply "Russian émigrés" (русская эмиграцiя) or "Russian military émigrés"(русская военная эмиграцiя) if they participated in the White movement.
Most white émigrés left Russia from 1917 to 1920 (estimates vary between 900,000 and 2 million), although some managed to leave during the twenties and thirties or were exiled by the Soviet Government (such as, for example, philosopher Ivan Ilyin). They spanned all classes and included military soldiers and officers, Cossacks, intellectuals of various professions, dispossessed businessmen and landowners, as well as officials of the Russian Imperial Government and various anti-Bolshevik governments of the Russian Civil War period. They were not only ethnic Russians but belonged to other ethnic groups as well." From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Apparently, their faith is based in Orthodoxy but it differs from Greek Orthodoxy and here in Canada they are considered 'White Russian'. Again, I don't want to over step in my assertions here but I did say I would relay what I found out regarding this topic.

I think you may be confused about this. White Russians are Russians who fled Bolshevik rule. They got permission to form the Russian Church Abroad aka ROCOR. Read this and see if it helps Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

M.
 
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