Differences and Similarities between the OCA and ROCOR

[Dorothea]

We live in the swimming pool!

Well, at least you have that to live in.

 

[Colleen1]

Colleen,

We dont have churches that we have mutually agreed to separate (which isnt just church leadership) eucharistically. We are no longer the same Church, but they broke off and have separate leadership, sacraments, and usually doctrinal beliefs.

I see. Thanks

 

[Colleen1]

Not succumbing to peer pressure at all but showing respect for the culture of a parish at which I am a guest and also taking into account my sinful prideful nature. I am the kind of sinner that would enjoy being the only woman in the room with a scarf. I am a "look how pious I am" kind of person. Terrible.

Thanks for your post.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

What are you saying, that we live in a refrigerator box!? LOL We live in a house, thank yuh! LOL

Well, at least you have that to live in.

 

[Dorothea]

What are you saying, that we live in a refrigerator box!? LOL We live in a house, thank yuh! LOL

Hey, you said you lived in your pool, not me. .

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

As Walter Matthau would say: "shmarty pants!"

Hey, you said you lived in your pool, not me. .

 

[Dorothea]

As Walter Matthau would say: "shmarty pants!"

 

[ProScribe]

OCA is autocephalous ROCOR is independent extension of the Russian Church

 

[MariaRegina]

It's so funny...

The Catholics are having huge battles about women priests, liturgical reform, molestation scandals, etc. The Anglicans are arguing about realignment, women's ordination, homosexuals, gay marriages, whether or not Jesus is God's Son...

We Orthodox argue about calendars, head scarves, Star Trek humanism, and icon styles

I wish the Orthodox would just argue on the above bolded sentence above.

Hey, you forgot the Toll Houses.
The ROCOR tends to teach this theologumenon, while the OCA is not so dogmatic about it. The Greeks apparently do not teach it at all. It seems to be a Russian thing.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I wish the Orthodox would just argue on the above bolded sentence above.

Hey, you forgot the Toll Houses.
The ROCOR tends to teach this theologumenon, while the OCA is not so dogmatic about it. The Greeks apparently do not teach it at all. It seems to be a Russian thing.

unless you go to monasteries. Elders Joseph the hesychast, Paisios, Porphyios, Ephraim of Philotheau, etc and bishops like St Nektarios of Aegina and Metropolitan Heirotheos Vlachos as well as some lay theologians all taught the toll houses. it seems that it is more in the West that this is debated so much. Fr Peter Alban Speers actually has a talk on Fr Seraphim Rose's influence in Greece, and one of the major books that folks look to is The Soul After Death.

 

[Colleen1]

I wish the Orthodox would just argue on the above bolded sentence above.

Hey, you forgot the Toll Houses.
The ROCOR tends to teach this theologumenon, while the OCA is not so dogmatic about it. The Greeks apparently do not teach it at all. It seems to be a Russian thing.

Thanks I appreciate your input. Something for me to look into.

 

[Colleen1]

unless you go to monasteries. Elders Joseph the hesychast, Paisios, Porphyios, Ephraim of Philotheau, etc and bishops like St Nektarios of Aegina and Metropolitan Heirotheos Vlachos as well as some lay theologians all taught the toll houses. it seems that it is more in the West that this is debated so much. Fr Peter Alban Speers actually has a talk on Fr Seraphim Rose's influence in Greece, and one of the major books that folks look to is The Soul After Death.

Oh okay. Different opinions within church can be good. It can lead to thinking about things more thoroughly but when first learning things it can be a bit daunting.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Oh okay. Different opinions within church can be good. It can lead to thinking about things more thoroughly but when first learning things it can be a bit daunting.

yep, there are varying opinions concerning the soul after death, and I say this as a firm toll house believer.

 

[Colleen1]

yep, there are varying opinions concerning the soul after death, and I say this as a firm toll house believer.

I see, thanks.

 

[Irish Melkite]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7671960-post60971279/#post60971279

Most of the Old Believers in the USA are now part of the ROCOR.
In fact, I have heard of such a church in Oregon. My mom sent me an article on it. It is located in the forest and is beautiful.

Yeah there are now Old Ritualists in ROCOR and the MP.

Most Old Believers (the term they prefer over Old Ritualist, since they believe that their ritual differences, in fact, represent differences in faith) in the US are not part of ROCOR. The sole Old Believer parish in the US that belongs to ROCOR is that in Erie and I don't believe that there are any in ROCOR jurisdictions outside the US.

Old Believer parishes that belong to the Moscow Patriarchate are those of the Edinovertsi (United Believers), also called Co-Religionists or Church Old Believers. They were Old Believers, principally drawn from Popovtsy (or priested Old Believers), who accepted a usage established by the Orthodox Church to allow Old Believer praxis within the structure of the Orthodox Church. They don't constitute a Church per se, but would probably best be described as a usage within the Moscow Patriarchate.

The plan was predicated on a perception that differences in praxis were the sole, or at least major, factor motivating Old Believers. It was successful insofar as the usage continues to exist to this day, but it failed to achieve such numbers in its early decades to make a convincing argument that praxis was the overriding consideration. In its inception, it was compared to the Uniate movement of the Catholic Church and the term Uniate has been applied to both it and its faithful.

There are no Edinovertsi parishes in the US and I don't believe that there are any outside of Russia itself - most are in the areas of Moscow and St Petersburg (where the sole extant Russian Catholic community which serves according to the Old Rituals is also located).

The vast majority of Old Believers in the US are located in the Pacific Northwest - particularly Oregon (where there are several sects, especially in the Woodbridge area and in near proximity to the Mt Angel Benedictine Abbey) and in Alaska. There are smaller communities in northern California, Washington State, most of the border states from Minnesota westward, and northwestern Pennsylvania. Old Believers in Canada are likewise concentrated in its western provinces.

The Priested Old Believers or Popovotsy in the US and Canada are chiefly of the Beilokrinitskaya Hierarchy, sometimes also termed the Lipovan Orthodox Old Rite Church, Orthodox Old Ritualist Church, or Orthodox Old Rite Church. Smaller numbers are adherents of the Novozybkovskaya Hierarchy or Russian Old Orthodox Church.

Bespopovotsy or Priestless Old Believers in the US and Canada are chiefly from various of the sects derived from the Pomortsy movement, with scattered communities that trace to others of the hundred or so bespopovotsy sects.

There are, as well, the Dukhovnye Khristiane or Spiritual Christians, who had their origins pretty much contemporaneously with that of the Old Believers and are sometimes classed with the latter, although they are not Old Believers. In North America, these are mainly Dukhobors, found principally in Canada, and Molokans, principally found in the US.

Many years,

Neil

 

[Colleen1]

The sole Old Believer parish in the US that belongs to ROCOR is that in Erie and I don't believe that there are any in ROCOR jurisdictions outside the US.

I wondered about that.

Old Believer parishes that belong to the Moscow Patriarchate are those of the Edinovertsi (United Believers), also called Co-Religionists or Church Old Believers. They were Old Believers, principally drawn from Popovtsy (or priested Old Believers), who accepted a usage established by the Orthodox Church to allow Old Believer praxis within the structure of the Orthodox Church. They don't constitute a Church per se, but would probably best be described as a usage within the Moscow Patriarchate.

Interesting and where are they mainly found? So they were Old Believers now reunited with the church?

The plan was predicated on a perception that differences in praxis were the sole, or at least major, factor motivating Old Believers. It was successful insofar as the usage continues to exist to this day, but it failed to achieve such numbers in its early decades to make a convincing argument that praxis was the overriding consideration. In its inception, it was compared to the Uniate movement of the Catholic Church and the term Uniate has been applied to both it and its faithful.

Oh okay. Thanks.

There are no Edinovertsi parishes in the US and I don't believe that there are any outside of Russia itself - most are in the areas of Moscow and St Petersburg (where the sole extant Russian Catholic community which serves according to the Old Rituals is also located).

So how are these parishes defined?

The vast majority of Old Believers in the US are located in the Pacific Northwest - particularly Oregon (where there are several sects, especially in the Woodbridge area and in near proximity to the Mt Angel Benedictine Abbey) and in Alaska. There are smaller communities in northern California, Washington State, most of the border states from Minnesota westward, and northwestern Pennsylvania. Old Believers in Canada are likewise concentrated in its western provinces.

Yes, I'm aware of Oregon and yes, for the Canadian aspect of things.

The Priested Old Believers or Popovotsy in the US and Canada are chiefly of the Beilokrinitskaya Hierarchy, sometimes also termed the Lipovan Orthodox Old Rite Church, Orthodox Old Ritualist Church, or Orthodox Old Rite Church. Smaller numbers are adherents of the Novozybkovskaya Hierarchy or Russian Old Orthodox Church.

Bespopovotsy or Priestless Old Believers in the US and Canada are chiefly from various of the sects derived from the Pomortsy movement, with scattered communities that trace to others of the hundred or so bespopovotsy sects.

There are, as well, the Dukhovnye Khristiane or Spiritual Christians, who had their origins pretty much contemporaneously with that of the Old Believers and are sometimes classed with the latter, although they are not Old Believers. In North America, these are mainly Dukhobors, found principally in Canada, and Molokans, principally found in the US.

Oh wow, so many terms I'm not familiar with.
Lots to look into and study.

 

[Irish Melkite]

So they were Old Believers now reunited with the church?

Yes. The MP inaugurated the Edinovertsi movement in the 1800s, as memory serves. It wasn't a priority, rather more an effort to overcome a vexing problem. There aren't any significant ongoing efforts made to pursue it, but individuals and parishes occasionally come into communion.

So how are these parishes defined?

They're part and parcel of the Russian Orthodox Church. I believe that there is a 'dean' or 'vicar' who oversees them - but they might have a bishop of their own within the MP. Quite honestly, the Edinovertsi are such a very small component of the Old Ritualist/Old Believer community that there isn't a lot of ink devoted to them anywhere and, consequently, not a lot of info to be had - certainly not in the English language.

If you want to read some detailed material on the variety of Old Believers (and contemporaneous movements often confused with them), both presently and historically, I suggest here. As regards the historical differences that brought them into being, although I cringe at suggesting wikipedia as a source, its article on the subject does a decent job of explaining the background.

Many years,

Neil

 

[Colleen1]

Yes. The MP inaugurated the Edinovertsi movement in the 1800s, as memory serves. It wasn't a priority, rather more an effort to overcome a vexing problem. There aren't any significant ongoing efforts made to pursue it, but individuals and parishes occasionally come into communion.

I see, thanks.

They're part and parcel of the Russian Orthodox Church. I believe that there is a 'dean' or 'vicar' who oversees them - but they might have a bishop of their own within the MP. Quite honestly, the Edinovertsi are such a very small component of the Old Ritualist/Old Believer community that there isn't a lot of ink devoted to them anywhere and, consequently, not a lot of info to be had - certainly not in the English language.

Okay thanks.

If you want to read some detailed material on the variety of Old Believers (and contemporaneous movements often confused with them), both presently and historically, I suggest here.

Thanks

As regards the historical differences that brought them into being, although I cringe at suggesting wikipedia as a source, its article on the subject does a decent job of explaining the background.

Yes, I understand and agree. I did read one fairly good article they had so far but, you're right, they aren't the most reliable source.

Thanks for your kind and helpful response.