Did Yahshua and his Disciples Abstain from Meat?

HARK! said:

Do fish count as reptiles?


Irenaeus, Against Heresies 2:22

(3) He there seeing a great crowd had followed Him, fed all that multitude with five loaves of bread, and twelve baskets of fragments remained over and above.

No mention of fish.

Irenaeus, Against Heresies 2:24

and our Lord, after(1) blessing the five loaves, fed with them five thousand men.

No mention of fish.

Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book 2, Chapters 18 to 35 | CARM.org

Arnobius Against the Heathen 1:46

who with [f]ive loaves satisfied five thousand of His followers: and who, lest it might appear to the unbelieving and bard of heart to be an illusion, filled twelve capacious baskets with the fragments that remained?

CHURCH FATHERS: Against the Heathen, Book I (Arnobius)

No mention of fish.

Even Yahshua didn't mention the fish when he brought up that event just a few chapters later:

Matthew 16

5 Now when His disciples had come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread. 6 Then Jesus said to them, “Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.”

7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “It is because we have taken no bread.”

8 But Jesus, being aware of it, said to them, “O you of little faith, why do you reason among yourselves because you d]">[d]have brought no bread? 9 Do you not yet understand, or remember the five loaves of the five thousand and how many baskets you took up?

What is the leaven of the Pharisees? Hmm....It's when they add to the scripture.

Matthew 14:19
New King James Version
Then He commanded the multitudes to sit down on the grass. And He took the five loaves and the two fish, and looking up to heaven, He blessed and broke and gave the loaves to the disciples; and the disciples gave to the multitudes

Why didn't Yahshua bless the fish? Why didn't he give the fish to his disciples?

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Evidently you do not understand the feeding of the 5000 with loaves and fishes is in all four Gospels. Your debate is convoluted.

Why question what a reptile is? The Jews of Israel bought fish in their markets and restaurants. Do you pretend to know Hebrew and not know Jews own fishing boats and fished the Sea of Galilee (Chinnereth) to this day? Why do you argue in vain?

ewq1938 said:

And it wasn't sport fishing in Christ's day. They ate fish and so did Christ.

For those reading, meat is the muscle of animals and fish are almost all muscle so they provide lots of meat.

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I have been to Israel nine times since the 90’s. There were commercial fishermen working the Sea of Galilee with boats and nets. They catch more than those with casting rods. The fisherman set out at dusk and fished all night. The restaurants in Tiberias served tilapia that they called “St. Peter’s fish.” Christian tourists traversed the area in tour buses. A few had rental cars. Fish is kosher.

3. Wherefore also it comes to pass, that the most perfect among them addict themselves without fear to all those kinds of forbidden deeds of which the Scriptures assure us that they who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:21 For instance, they make no scruple about eating meats offered in sacrifice to idols, imagining that they can in this way contract no defilement. CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, I.6 (St. Irenaeus)

HARK! said:

Well, one of the biggies, is from Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 2.23:

4. James, the brother of the Lord, succeeded to the government of the Church in conjunction with the apostles. He has been called the Just by all from the time of our Saviour to the present day; for there were many that bore the name of James.

5. He was holy from his mother's womb; and he drank no wine nor strong drink, nor did he eat flesh. No razor came upon his head; he did not anoint himself with oil, and he did not use the bath.

6. He alone was permitted to enter into the holy place; for he wore not woolen but linen garments. And he was in the habit of entering alone into the temple, and was frequently found upon his knees begging forgiveness for the people, so that his knees became hard like those of a camel, in consequence of his constantly bending them in his worship of God, and asking forgiveness for the people.

CHURCH FATHERS: Church History, Book II (Eusebius)

Now it would stand to reason; that if James, brother of Yahshua was raised vegetarian; that his parents were vegetarian; and they would have raised Yahshua the same way.

If you look at the title of this thread; there is a question mark at the end. I'm asking a question, not making a proclamation.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm struggling with this subject; and I'm on the fence. I'm reviewing the evidence. If you are not interested in reviewing the evidence; then you might not be able to help those who are.

I've abstained from meat for over a month now. I won't eat it again until I have conviction that I'm making the right decision. I've been praying about this throughout my days. With Passover approaching quickly; I feel the need to get this matter resolved. I've been researching this subject, until I start to get a mental lock, as often as I can.

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Hi Hark, the word, under "eat flesh" is abstinence and has a specific context in Judaism.

" Fasting implying abstinence was ordained by law for the Day of Atonement (Leviticus 16:29 sq.). The ceremony incident to this feast was observed by the Jews on the fifth day before the feast of Tabernacles. From evening of the ninth until evening of the tenth day labour and eating were strictly prohibited. Besides this passage the sacred narrative contains many others which show how adversity moved the Jews to assume the burden of fasting and abstinence in a spirit of penance (Judges 20:26; Judith 6:20; Joel 1:14; 2:15). Moreover, the Jews abstained on the ninth day of the fourth month, because on that day Nabuchodonosor captured Jerusalem (Jeremiah 52:6); on the tenth day of the fifth month, because on that day the temple was burned (Jeremiah 52:12 sq.); on the third day of the seventh month, because on that day Godolias had been murdered (Jeremiah 41:2); and on the tenth day of the tenth month, because on that day the Chaldees commenced the siege of Jerusalem (2 Kings 25:1 sq.). They were told that fidelity to these regulations would bring joy, gladness, and great solemnities to the house of Juda (Zechariah 8:19). During the month of new corn they were obliged to spend seven days without leaven, and to eat the bread of affliction in memory of their delivery from Egypt (Deuteronomy 16:3). In addition to those indications concerning the seasons of abstinence amongst the Jews, the sacred text contains passages regarding the ways and means whereby the law of abstinence assumed more definite shape amongst them. After the deluge God said to Noah: "Everything that moveth upon the earth shall be a meat for you, saving that flesh with blood you shall not eat" (Genesis 9:3-4; similar passages are contained in Leviticus 7:26 sq.; 17:14 sq.; Deuteronomy 12:15,16). A prohibition whereby corn, oil, wine, and the first-born of herds and cattle are forbidden in towns is set forth in Deuteronomy 12:17. Priests were forbidden to drink any intoxicant lest they die (Leviticus 10:9). The eleventh chapter of Leviticus contains a detailed enumeration of the various beasts, birds, and fish that fall under the ban. Such were reputed unclean. Abstinence from things legally unclean was intended to train the Israelites in the pursuit of spiritual cleanness." CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Abstinence

Pavel Mosko said:

I skimmed the video. I disagree it conflates Christian and Jewish fasting with vegetarianism. It also bases a lot of its arguments from the Gospel of the Ebionites.


Jesus and the disciples were not vegetarians like modern vegetarians. You could not be one in ancient Israel, celebrating Passover was commanded and that meant eating meat at least once a year! Not to mention some of the sin offerings etc. in the OT that mandated a meat sacrifice and its consumption.


I also think it should be pointed out that people in the past, before the days of refrigeration ate much less meat than today. Unless you lived in a big city, where you could but small cuts of meat at a butcher, your average peasant, farmer etc. had to wait for some special occasion to have lamb, or beef because it meant slaughtering a whole animal and consuming it before it spoiled. Not only this, but grain based products like breads and porridge were the easiest fast food to have on hand, as far something that was both readily available and fast to cook and cheap.

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This false teaching of the Ebionites, puts them so far outside of Christianity, ...

"
They say that Christ was not begotten of God the Father, but created as one of
the archangels ... that he rules over the angels and all the creatures of the
Almighty, and that he came and declared, as their Gospel, which is called
Gospel according to Matthew, or Gospel According to the Hebrews?,
reports:

"I am come to do away with sacrfices, and if you cease not sacrificing,
the wrath of God will not cease from you."
(Epiphanius, Panarion 30.16,4-5)

But they abandon the proper sequence of the words and pervert the saying,
as is plain to all from the readings attached, and have let the disciples say:

"Where will you have us prepare the passover?"
And him to answer to that:
"Do I desire with desire at this Passover to eat flesh with you?"
(Epiphanius, Panarion 30.22.4)"
The Gospel of the Ebionites extracted from Epiphanius

Daniel Marsh said:

Lamb is part of the Last Supper meal. right?

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Supposed to be so, but historians and theologians have noted that there is no mention of there being a lamb in the case of the Last Supper.

From what I can tell, though, he almost certainly ate fish, and even if he helped other people to eat fish while abstaining himself, he never encouraged anyone else in the direction of vegetarianism, which would seem peculiar if that was his own approach.

HARK! said:

According to 4th century church father Eusebius, all of the apostles of Yahusha “embraced and persevered in a strenuous and a laborious life, with fasting and abstinence from wine and meat.”

Historical Evidence That The Disciples of Yahusha (Jesus) Did NOT Eat Meat!

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The texts I quoted showed they had lamb. If they did not eat the lamb then they were disobeying God's word.

Numbers 9:11-12 They must celebrate Passover just before dark on the 14th day of the second month. At that time they must eat the lamb, the bread made without yeast, and the bitter herbs. They must not leave any of that food until the next morning. And they must not break any of the bones of the lamb. They must follow all the rules about Passover.

Let's see, obeying God's word or following the teachings of those who taught that the Son of God is a created angel.

No contest.

Al Touthentop said:

They ate the Passover lamb. Cut it out. It would not be an option for them to abstain from that meal of lamb.

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Also, I quoted where God himself will serve meat on the mountain.

HARK! said:

That's irrelevant. like I said in the OP, that video contains flaws. There are plenty more, that are similar to it ,which do not. I picked that one because it is short; but it covers lots of points that I wanted on the table.

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who made the video? is not irrelevant answer the question please.

Daniel Marsh said:

Numbers 9:11-12 They must celebrate Passover just before dark on the 14th day of the second month. At that time they must eat the lamb, the bread made without yeast, and the bitter herbs. They must not leave any of that food until the next morning. And they must not break any of the bones of the lamb. They must follow all the rules about Passover.

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Yes, but it begs the question. Was the Last Supper a Passover meal?

We often think, almost unconsciously, that it was one. That's because the evidence is there that the Apostles had been told to prepare such a meal. However, the undeniable 'new twist' that Christ put on that particular meal he had with his followers ("This is my body" etc.) suggests that it was not.

Again who made the video?

HARK! said:

Of course they were. The Zadokites were of the tribe of Levi. John the Baptist's father was a Zadok priest. I suspect that he passed the Priesthood to John, who in turn passed it to Yahshua of the order of Melchi Zadok.

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Jesus Descended From Judah Not Levi (Hebrews 7:13-14)

Hebrews 7:13-14 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
13-14 We are talking about our Lord Christ, who belonged to a different tribe. No one from that tribe ever served as a priest at the altar. It is clear that Christ came from the tribe of Judah. And Moses said nothing about priests belonging to that tribe.

HARK! said:

This short video provides some evidence to support that possibility. I have been researching this subject; and I have found much more evidence than this video presents. Some of the arguments that I have reviewed are weak; but even the weak arguments, could be valid arguments. I have found some flawed evidence in this video; but so far, as I have seen this evidence is only flawed by semantics. Again, this video is just a brief overview of this subject. I'm left torn between observing the Moedim according to the tradition of the Torah, or from following the message of the Prophets, Yahshua, and his disciples. I look forward to those in this community who are interested in seeking out the truth in this matter.

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Peter, Andrew, and John & James Zebedee were all fisherman before following Jesus.

HARK! said:

The responses are piling high. I'll try to respond to everyone; but it might take some time. I'm already feeling rushed; and I don't want to make mistakes.

Thank you.

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Simply group by types. start with who made the video.

HARK! said:

The broiled fish: Yes, I'm aware of that verse; but if you look at the accounts of the four Gospels and who saw Yahshua, where and when, this account seems out of place. I'm not saying that it's a forgery; but it doesn't seem to match the other accounts. Do fish count as reptiles?

The wine: I thought about that too. Does new wine, or grape juice, technically count as wine? Now it was Passover, long after grape season; so I don't know how this could have been new wine. This doesn't seem to fit with Eusebius' accounts.

Good points. These are the type of issues that prompted me to get others involved.

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No grape juice, that did not come along until 1800's

Hosea 4:11
“Sexual sins, strong drink, and new wine ruin a person’s ability to think straight.

Matthew 9:17Also, people never pour new wine into old wineskins. They would break, the wine would spill out, and the wineskins would be ruined. People always put new wine into new wineskins, which won’t break, and the wine stays good.”

Luke 22:20
In the same way, after supper, Jesus took the cup of wine and said, “This wine represents the new agreement from God to his people. It will begin when my blood is poured out for you.”

"Welch's grape juice first came about in 1869 when the American physician and dentist, Thomas Bramwell Welch, invented a method of pasteurizing grape juice to halt the fermentation process, preventing it from turning into wine."

HARK! said:

I'm not sure if the last supper was a Passover Seder. How could it be, if Yahshua said that he wished that he could have the Passover meal with his disciples; then he was executed, the next day, not on Passover, but on preparation day, the day before Passover. That's two days off. Even if we go by the Qumran calendar; it's still a day off.

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I already gave scripture that it was a passover meal.

HARK! said:

Well, one of the biggies, is from Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 2.23:

4. James, the brother of the Lord, succeeded to the government of the Church in conjunction with the apostles. He has been called the Just by all from the time of our Saviour to the present day; for there were many that bore the name of James.

5. He was holy from his mother's womb; and he drank no wine nor strong drink, nor did he eat flesh. No razor came upon his head; he did not anoint himself with oil, and he did not use the bath.

6. He alone was permitted to enter into the holy place; for he wore not woolen but linen garments. And he was in the habit of entering alone into the temple, and was frequently found upon his knees begging forgiveness for the people, so that his knees became hard like those of a camel, in consequence of his constantly bending them in his worship of God, and asking forgiveness for the people.

CHURCH FATHERS: Church History, Book II (Eusebius)

Now it would stand to reason; that if James, brother of Yahshua was raised vegetarian; that his parents were vegetarian; and they would have raised Yahshua the same way.

If you look at the title of this thread; there is a question mark at the end. I'm asking a question, not making a proclamation.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm struggling with this subject; and I'm on the fence. I'm reviewing the evidence. If you are not interested in reviewing the evidence; then you might not be able to help those who are.

I've abstained from meat for over a month now. I won't eat it again until I have conviction that I'm making the right decision. I've been praying about this throughout my days. With Passover approaching quickly; I feel the need to get this matter resolved. I've been researching this subject, until I start to get a mental lock, as often as I can.

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Yeshua was not a nazirite or under a nazirite vow, at least not until the last supper. We know he ate fish and very likely ate meat at Pesakh.