Did Satan sin before or after Creation week?

[AlexDTX]

Linking that with Ezekiel 23 which is part of a prophetic book,

Typo? Did you mean 28, because 23 is about Judah and Israel as two sisters playing the harlot.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Typo? Did you mean 28, because 23 is about Judah and Israel as two sisters playing the harlot.

Senor moment! I got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning and hit the wall!

 

[eleos1954]

I would agree that he understood it fully by the Spirit. Whether he knew it word for word in his mind, the Bible does not say.

I starting to lose the point here. The topical question of the OP is, "Did Satan sin before or after creation week?"

Seems to me as my original post . ... if it don't seem that way to you so be it.

Lucifer sinned in heaven, cast to the earth after the Lord was finished creating everything ... and it was good ... God gave Adam dominion over a perfect earth. sin entered into the earth and mankind after Adam and Eve sinned. Did that happen 1 second after creation or how long who knows ... but seems to me was after creation.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Seems to me as my original post . ... if it don't seem that way to you so be it.

Lucifer sinned in heaven, cast to the earth after the Lord was finished creating everything ... and it was good ... sin entered into the earth after Adam and Eve sinned. God gave Adam dominion over a perfect earth. Did that happen 1 second after creation or how long who knows ... but seems to me was after creation.

Yes. What is not taken into account is that God, the angels, and Lucifer existed in eternity long before the creation when measurement of time began. So we don't know exactly when Lucifer's rebellion happened in eternity past, because eternity past was a very long time and the rebellion could have happened at any time during that period, long before the creation of the universe was even a thought in God's mind.

 

[AlexDTX]

Seems to me as my original post . ... if it don't seem that way to you so be it.

Lucifer sinned in heaven, cast to the earth after the Lord was finished creating everything ... and it was good ... sin entered into the earth after Adam and Eve sinned. God gave Adam dominion over a perfect earth. Did that happen 1 second after creation or how long who knows ... but seems to me was after creation.

Yes, I think you stand with the majority in this opinion.

 

[AlexDTX]

Yes. What is not taken into account is that God, the angels, and Lucifer existed in eternity long before the creation when measurement of time began. So we don't know exactly when Lucifer's rebellion happened in eternity past, because eternity past was a very long time and the rebellion could have happened at any time during that period, long before the creation of the universe was even a thought in God's mind.

We've already talked a little about the meaning of eternity, and I must state why I find your usage troubling. Please understand, I am not saying this about you, but of the LDS.

In their theology, all of us are eternal spirits alive in eternal heaven. At birth our eternal spirits enter bodies so we can live in the physical creation. If you are good Mormon, then after you die, you will have many wives to populate a planet that you become the god on.

There god, Elohim, is just another eternal spirit that left eternal heaven and populated Earth. Adam, Elohim's first man fell into sin and Jesus and Lucifer (who are brother eternal spirits) come up with 2 different plans of salvation. Jesus's plan was accepted, so Mormons have to believe in Jesus therefore consider themselves Christians, too.

This Jesus, (like the Watchertower Jesus who they believe to be Michael the arch angel) is a different Jesus than the Jesus of the Bible who is Yahweh Shua, I AM Salvation.

This is why I believe there is a difference between eternity and everlasting. Eternity means no beginning nor end. Everlasting means a beginning but no end. It is the eternal nature of God that prevents Him from being able to sin.

A systematic theology book I read parts of years ago used the analogy of parallel lines to describe eternity. Parallel lines, but definition extend in both directions without end and never cross. If those lines could cross anywhere, then they would not be parallel lines.

It is precisely because God has no beginning nor end that it is impossible for him to sin. Because he is always holy and can never be unholy.

Do you see the problem? If we were also eternal spirits, as the Mormons believe, then it would also be impossible for us to sin, too. There could be no fall. But a segment of a line has a beginning and an end. Therefore it can change.

Likewise with Lucifer and the angels. If they are eternal spirits then it would be impossible for them to sin, too.

I may have errors in my logic, and if you see them, please point them out.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

We've already talked a little about the meaning of eternity, and I must state why I find your usage troubling. Please understand, I am not saying this about you, but of the LDS.

In their theology, all of us are eternal spirits alive in eternal heaven. At birth our eternal spirits enter bodies so we can live in the physical creation. If you are good Mormon, then after you die, you will have many wives to populate a planet that you become the god on.

There god, Elohim, is just another eternal spirit that left eternal heaven and populated Earth. Adam, Elohim's first man fell into sin and Jesus and Lucifer (who are brother eternal spirits) come up with 2 different plans of salvation. Jesus's plan was accepted, so Mormons have to believe in Jesus therefore consider themselves Christians, too.

This Jesus, (like the Watchertower Jesus who they believe to be Michael the arch angel) is a different Jesus than the Jesus of the Bible who is Yahweh Shua, I AM Salvation.

This is why I believe there is a difference between eternity and everlasting. Eternity means no beginning nor end. Everlasting means a beginning but no end. It is the eternal nature of God that prevents Him from being able to sin.

A systematic theology book I read parts of years ago used the analogy of parallel lines to describe eternity. Parallel lines, but definition extend in both directions without end and never cross. If those lines could cross anywhere, then they would not be parallel lines.

It is precisely because God has no beginning nor end that it is impossible for him to sin. Because he is always holy and can never be unholy.

Do you see the problem? If we were also eternal spirits, as the Mormons believe, then it would also be impossible for us to sin, too. There could be no fall. But a segment of a line has a beginning and an end. Therefore it can change.

Likewise with Lucifer and the angels. If they are eternal spirits then it would be impossible for them to sin, too.

I may have errors in my logic, and if you see them, please point them out.

I think you may have read in more than what I actually meant. Lucifer and the angels were created beings, but they were created before the universe was created. I never said that Lucifer and the angels were eternal beings. I naturally assumed that you would already know that without me having to say it. Apparently not.

We don't know when Lucifer and the angels were created. We are not told. The point I made was that God had plenty of time in which to create them, because there is no beginning nor end to eternity. Because time is only measured in our universe, we cannot say, for instance, that Lucifer and the angels were created so many quadtrillions of years before the universe was created.

Therefore, at some point a very long time before the universe and world was created, Lucifer sinned through pride, and fell from his exalted position to become any enemy of God.

To introduce Mormon theology into the mix is quite irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[AlexDTX]

they were created before the universe was created

Please provide Scripture to back up this statement. I have never seen anything in the Bible that makes such a statement. I believe you are making an assumption that there is an "eternal" heaven.

because there is no beginning nor end to eternity.

Your assumption of an eternal heaven seems to be based in assumption of God taking up space and needing space for him to live in. But, frankly, God is a Spirit, and none of us really know what that means.

As for my reference to the LDS and the systematic theology analogy of parallel lines to for understanding the eternal nature of God, it was to explain a logical process.

This is the same logical process of evolution. Evolutionists can not fathom the universe never existing. Even the "Big Bang" theory does not assume nothing then something. It assumes the universe has no beginning and always has existed, but has changed forms, of which the Big Bang is the instigator of our current form. This is why the universe is given divine attributes but unthinking people who makes such statements as "the universe wants me to do..." etc.

God is eternal, not heaven. Space and time are creations of him.

 

[faith confidence hope]

Does the bible tell us about the exact precise time when Satan was cast out of heaven. ?

The Bible gives us information in Ezekiel / Yechezqê'l chapter 28. about how that Satan is a spiritual force in the earth that evil individuals follow.

In Ezekiel / Yechezqê'l chapter 28 the Bible describes the evil kings, such as the King of Tyrus, emphasizing or suggesting that these Kings are servants of and in league with or influenced by Satan.

As far as I can see, the bible does not say that Satan was removed from heaven before Christ was born. There seems to be a long process that involved a long process where that Satan was at enmity with God when God created earth and man, then Satan began to influence Gods creation to rebel against God and intice and influence man to become evil and wicked.

The Bible tells us - in the New Testament - Of the Woman, which I believe is a symbol of Israel.

The scriptures seem to indicate that when the child, { Christ } was born, this is the exact time and specific point at which the war in heaven occurred.

If you read Revelation 12, it is saying that the war happened because when Christ was born, then the Dragon / Satan began to attack the woman, Israel and her seed which was Christ.

:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Does it seem to say that the bible is saying, is that when Christ was born, then war broke out in heaven and then at this time Satan and his rebel angels were cast out of heaven ? And that Satan was always roaming throughout the earth influencing and testing and attempting to be a judge, to test and to cast judgment upon man. Satan also was working to lead and pull mankind to the evilest and wicked place possible for humans to spiritually and physically be.

But it was when Christ was born and God manifested himself as a man, in human flesh, then at this point Satans attacked upon God's plan and upon God's people who were being reborn / born again in the spirit - to be, again called Sons and Daughters Of God. At this point is when war occurred in heaven and Satan was cast out of heaven.

I think that is exactly what the bible is saying. Perhaps someone else could further clarify in better details ?

 

[Charles Kanyuga]

We can only rely on scriptures...
Jesus says the devil was a lair from the beginning. From this we know that the devil was never a saint, since he begun as a lair.

 

[Charlie24]

I always thought Satan sinned way before Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden. But last night Ezekiel 28 has filled me with questions.

1. Was the Garden of Eden first a part of heaven before Creation week?
2. Was the Garden of Eden first created in heaven for Lucifer?
3. After Lucifer sinned he was cast down to the ground. Is that ground, earth, or the ground in heaven. If earth, that means he sinned after earth was created, but how long before Adam and Eve was created?
5. Was Satan's first sin and Adam and Eve's first sin at the same time?
6. Was the Garden of Eden planted from what was created, or did God bring it down to earth out of heaven.

Note highlighted sections.

Ezekiel 28:
11 Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord God:

“You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.

14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.

16 “By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.

17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground,
I laid you before kings,
That they might gaze at you.

18 “You defiled your sanctuaries
By the multitude of your iniquities,
By the iniquity of your trading;
Therefore I brought fire from your midst;
It devoured you,
And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
In the sight of all who saw you.
19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
You have become a horror,
And shall be no more forever.” ’ ”

Many believe that between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2 the revolt of Satan took place. They claim that God did not originally create the earth "without form and void.

This "without form and void" was the result of the war that took place.

I have never found proof of this but it could very well be true.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Many believe that between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2 the revolt of Satan took place. They claim that God did not originally create the earth "without form and void.

This "without form and void" was the result of the war that took place.

I have never found proof of this but it could very well be true.

I've heard of those theories, but I've always read "without form and void" to be empty space.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yes, but how long before or after Adam and Eve sinned? Did he sin with Adam and Eve, then run back to heaven, and then got kicked out?

If the Garden of Eden was created for Lucifer and was in heaven, then brought to earth, was it taken from Lucifer because he sinned first?

Huh?

Where does it say the garden was created for Lucifer?

Also, if Lucifer hadn’t been cast out of heaven yet, how did he get down on earth to be the serpent? He would be in heaven.

I think you are way off with this. I wouldn’t add speculation to the Bible. That is very bad theology

 

[ToBeLoved]

Many believe that between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2 the revolt of Satan took place. They claim that God did not originally create the earth "without form and void.

This "without form and void" was the result of the war that took place.

I have never found proof of this but it could very well be true.

I wouldn’t believe or start repeating things that aren’t in the Bible.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Huh?

Where does it say the garden was created for Lucifer?

Also, if Lucifer hadn’t been cast out of heaven yet, how did he get down on earth to be the serpent? He would be in heaven.

I think you are way off with this. I wouldn’t add speculation to the Bible. That is very bad theology

I'm asking a question. Did you even bother to read #1, the OP?

 

[ToBeLoved]

I'm asking a question. Did you even bother to read #1, the OP?

Yes.

But angels were created before Genesis happened.

Angels are not part of creation in the Bible.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Yes.

But angels were created before Genesis happened.

Angels are not part of creation in the Bible.

I agree. But the Garden of Eden was created after Creation week. Ezekiel seems to have Lucifer in the Garden of Eden before he sinned. So when did he sin? Was it at the same time he made Eve sin? The curse God gave was to all three.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I agree. But the Garden of Eden was created after Creation week. Ezekiel seems to have Lucifer in the Garden of Eden before he sinned. So when did he sin? Was it at the same time he made Eve sin? The curse God gave was to all three.

Why do you think he or Lucifer had to have sinned in the Garden?

An angel is not a human.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Why do you think he or Lucifer had to have sinned in the Garden?

An angel is not a human.

You don't think angels can sin?

 

[ToBeLoved]

You don't think angels can sin?

Well it says in the Bible that 1/3 of the angels in heaven rebelled with Satan.

So I think all the rebellious angels left.