Did Satan sin before or after Creation week?

[Carl Emerson]

Interesting theories.

I maintain that we are again confusing that eternal heaven with the created heavens.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
These are created heavens seperate from where God dwells in eternity.
There, the created angels dwelled before Adam was created and they has access to the garden of eden which is on earth.
When Satan fell His domain was restricted, he and 1/3 of the angels were corrupted through sin of pride and they no longer has access to the highest created heavens, but occupied the lower heavens and the earth.
When the disciples went out in His name, even the authority they had remaining in the lower heavens and on earth was taken away.
There is no record of corruption in creation before Adam sinned. This came from the curse of the fall.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I hold to Andrew Wommack's opinion. He thinks Lucifer fell the moment he saw Adam was made in the image of God, not before.

This may very well be correct given that one of Satans main aims is to try and prove to God that man is no different than the animals (see Job 1 )
When man is influenced by Satan his behaviours reflect this... he becomes more animal like because Satan is trying to refute that man is made in God's image.

The battle we all have between the spirit and the flesh is then is choosing Godly behaviours over 'animal' behaviours and in so doing prove that Satan's claims are false.

 

[AlexDTX]

The earthly King of Tyre was never in the garden of Eden, nor was he ever anointed a covering cherub, no one has ever been perfect from the day they were created---only born innocent.


Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

First of all, I am not arguing for or against. I am only sharing that there are other opinions. Comments from Albert Barnes.

The prince of Tyrus is ironically described as the first of creation; but at the same time the parallel is to be maintained in his fall from glory. Like Adam in the enjoyment of paradise, he shall be like Adam in his fall.

All the stones here named are found in the High priest’s breastplate Exo_28:17-20, but their order is different, and three stones named in Exodus (the third row) are wanting. The prophet may purposely have varied the description because the number twelve (that of the tribes of Israel) had nothing to do with the prince of Tyrus, and he wished to portray, not a high priest, but a king, having in view a figure which was to a Jew, especially to a priest, the very type of magnificence.

In the temple the cherubim and all holy things were consecrated and anointed with oil (Exo_30:26 ff). The prince of Tyre was also anointed as a sovereign priest - covering or protecting the minor states, like the cherubim with outstretched wings covering the mercy-Seat.

As the cherub was in the temple on the holy mountain, so the prince of Tyre was presiding over the island-city, rising like a mountain from the deep.

Decked with bright jewels, the prince walked among jewels in gorgeous splendor.

The “perfection” was false, unsuspected until the “iniquity” which lay beneath was found out.​

Barnes interprets these passages as metaphorical. Whether they are or are not, I don't care. Truth is, only God knows for sure. I prefer to keep my mind open to what is possible.

 

[AlexDTX]

It matters to me. I hate when I find I was force fed erroneous doctrine. I like to have the TRUTH.

The Jews believed they had the "truth" when Truth stood in front of them as a Savior, not a conquering king who would expel Rome.

There are hard fast truths that I stand by. Salvation comes by faith through grace in recognizing one's need for salvation, repenting, and receiving the Holy Spirit through the new birth. This is a hill I would die on.

But teachings such as Ezekiel 28 specifically meaning only Satan, I leave open for discussion.

If you have Christ in your heart, you have the TRUTH. But the heart is not the same thing as our conscious understanding.

 

[AlexDTX]

This may very well be correct given that one of Satans main aims is to try and prove to God that man is no different than the animals (see Job 1 )
When man is influenced by Satan his behaviours reflect this... he becomes more animal like because Satan is trying to refute that man is made in God's image.

The battle we all have between the spirit and the flesh is then is choosing Godly behaviours over 'animal' behaviours and in so doing prove that Satan's claims are false.

Excellent, Carl! We share characteristics of the animal kingdom simply because they are need to function in the physical world. But we are not animals since we are made in God's image. The world is run by unregenerate men who want to drag all down to the level of animals. We have to rise up in Christ and live according to the Spirit.

 

[mmksparbud]

This is not paradise though. This place will be destroyed.
And we are not eternal here. In Paradise, we were.
We are born into a sin condition, not into Paradise.
If you listen, you will hear the complaints about this place.

So?? That in no way means it was not right here on this earth, just like it says. You have provided nothing at all to even vaguely suggest that it was anywhere else. The bible does not even suggest it, neither did Jesus nor any of the disciples. It is totally a product of you own imagination and has nothing to do with the word of God. I see no need of carrying on this conversation.

 

[AlexDTX]

I maintain that we are again confusing that eternal heaven with the created heavens.

Purely an academic point, but I believe eternity is not a place but a person. Of course this depends on the accuracy of my definition of eternity. If I am wrong in my understand of the term, then my point is mute.

I understand the term eternity as meaning, "with no beginning nor end; ie, timeless". Only the Living God, Yahweh, is eternal. Genesis says,

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.​

Thus heaven was created and has a beginning, therefore is not eternal. Born again Christians have eternal life because eternity, ie, God, joins His life to our created lives. Thus as created beings Christ gives us His eternal life, which results in our also having everlasting life.

Perhaps you mean the "spiritual" heaven as opposed to the "physical" heavens of the sky and space.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Purely an academic point, but I believe eternity is not a place but a person. Of course this depends on the accuracy of my definition of eternity. If I am wrong in my understand of the term, then my point is mute.

I understand the term eternity as meaning, "with no beginning nor end; ie, timeless". Only the Living God, Yahweh, is eternal. Genesis says,

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.​

Thus heaven was created and has a beginning, therefore is not eternal. Born again Christians have eternal life because eternity, ie, God, joins His life to our created lives. Thus as created beings Christ gives us His eternal life, which results in our also having everlasting life.

Perhaps you mean the "spiritual" heaven as opposed to the "physical" heavens of the sky and space.

This is definitely much more than an academic point. Our concept of Satan is critical when it comes to dealing with his activities with the authority given to us in Jesus name. It is easy to attribute to Satan power and influence he does not have.

There is a priestly order that has neither beginning of time nor end of days. This pre-existed the creation and is in eternal heaven where God dwells.

Then there is a created heaven (not physical) with several levels (Paul refers to this) and Satan being a created being originally had habitation both there and on the earth.

In the beginning God created the Heavens (plural) and the earth. This was before he created the Physical heaven in Gen 1:8

 

[AlexDTX]

Our concept of Satan is critical when it comes to dealing with his activities with the authority given to us in Jesus name. It is easy to attribute to Satan power and influence he does not have.

I fail to see how regarding heaven as created and God alone as eternal gives Satan attributes he does not have.

There is a priestly order that has neither beginning of time nor end of days. This pre-existed the creation and is in eternal heaven where God dwells.

Shouldn't this "priestly order that has neither beginning of time nor end of days" refer to Jesus in his divine form before incarnation?

 

[eleos1954]

One scripture I think of is what Jesus says >

"I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven." (in Luke 10:18)

It would seem before ... because God saw all that He had made and it was all good (Genesis). The Lord gave Adam and Eve dominion over the perfect sinless earth He had created.

Sin did not "infect" the world until lucifer and his minions were cast to the earth, and Eve and Adam sinned. So until they (Adam and Eve) did sin all was well on the earth.

Revelation 12:7-9

Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

and ... woe is us

Revelations 12:12

"Woe to the Inhabitants of the Earth and of the Sea For the Devil is Come Down Unto You, Having Great Wrath Because He Knoweth that he Hath But a Short Time!"

 

[AlexDTX]

It would seem before ... because God saw all that He had made and it was all good (Genesis). The Lord gave Adam and Eve dominion over the perfect sinless earth He had created.

Sin did not "infect" the world until lucifer and his minions were cast to the earth, and Eve and Adam sinned. So until they (Adam and Eve) did sin all was well on the earth.

Revelation 12:7-9

Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

and ... woe is us

Revelations 12:12

"Woe to the Inhabitants of the Earth and of the Sea For the Devil is Come Down Unto You, Having Great Wrath Because He Knoweth that he Hath But a Short Time!"

This depends greatly upon how one views these verses. If Jesus saw the Revelation passage, then that means he speaking of a future event as though it was done already. On the other hand if he speaks of it as an event from the past, that means the passage in Revelations you quoted happened in the past.

I for one, do not know.

 

[eleos1954]

This depends greatly upon how one views these verses. If Jesus saw the Revelation passage, then that means he speaking of a future event as though it was done already. On the other hand if he speaks of it as an event from the past, that means the passage in Revelations you quoted happened in the past.

I for one, do not know.

In Revelation Jesus recaps events in history (from the OT) and then also predicts future events yet to come. Revelation is like the condensed version of the entire bible.

Jesus knew the future. Being God in flesh (John 1:1, 14; Colossians 2:9) because he had ordained it (Ephesians 1:11).

If lucifer wasn't cast to the earth (back in history) then there wouldn't be sin on earth.

 

[AlexDTX]

In Revelation Jesus recaps events in history (from the OT) and then also predicts future events yet to come. Revelation is like the condensed version of the entire bible.

Jesus knew the future. Being God in flesh (John 1:1, 14; Colossians 2:9) because he had ordained it (Ephesians 1:11).

If lucifer wasn't cast to the earth (back in history) then there wouldn't be sin on earth.

Your interpretation of Revelation is new to me, tho, I doubt it is original to you. This just means I have not read such an interpretation before.

Although Jesus was God incarnate, his incarnate was still man. Jesus did not walk in omniscience. If he did he would not have said,

Mat_24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

And we agree that Lucifer was on the Earth in the garden, even tho he is never mentioned directly. How he came there is another matter.

 

[Silverback]

Just a possibility---Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

This seems to describe him before the fall. That's just a big maybe as we do not know how long Adam and Eve were in the garden before they fell. But in my post I said that he fell in heaven for there he lead 1/3 of the angels to his side. Then he was cast out and he turned his anger towards Adam and Eve.

I thought a Carbuncle was a boil, and not a precious stone.

 

[eleos1954]

Your interpretation of Revelation is new to me, tho, I doubt it is original to you. This just means I have not read such an interpretation before.

Although Jesus was God incarnate, his incarnate was still man. Jesus did not walk in omniscience. If he did he would not have said,

Mat_24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

And we agree that Lucifer was on the Earth in the garden, even tho he is never mentioned directly. How he came there is another matter.

He had the OT and knew it word for word and understood it perfectly.

Isaiah 14

12How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the ground,
O destroyer of nations.
13You said in your heart:
“I will ascend to the heavens;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God.
I will sit on the mount of assembly,
in the far reaches of the north.
14I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.”

Know anybody else that has fallen from heaven other than Lucifer?

 

[AlexDTX]

He had the OT and knew it word for word and understood it perfectly.

Isaiah 14

12How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the ground,
O destroyer of nations.
13You said in your heart:
“I will ascend to the heavens;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God.
I will sit on the mount of assembly,
in the far reaches of the north.
14I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.”

Know anybody else that has fallen from heaven other than Lucifer?

I would agree that he understood it fully by the Spirit. Whether he knew it word for word in his mind, the Bible does not say.

I starting to lose the point here. The topical question of the OP is, "Did Satan sin before or after creation week?"

What exactly is your answer, besides quoting Isaiah? Are you saying chapter 14 (and Ezekiel 28) are before the creation week?

 

[SkyWriting]

So?? That in no way means it was not right here on this earth, just like it says. You have provided nothing at all to even vaguely suggest that it was anywhere else. The bible does not even suggest it, neither did Jesus nor any of the disciples.

Yikes! You hurt my feelings.

OK

- Man lives eternally when there
- I can't find the garden or the flaming sword guarding it
- God walked there alongside Adam
- snakes talked there
- it had a tree of knowledge
- it had a tree of life
- abundant food
- all rivers were artesian spring water
- Man was removed from there and cannot return to it.

A good indication that this here earth.....is not "there",
in Eden or east of it or part of it.

Ezekiel 28:13
You were in Eden, the garden of God;(where God walks)
every precious stone was your covering,
sardius, topaz, and diamond,
beryl, onyx, and jasper,
sapphire,[a] emerald, and carbuncle;
and crafted in gold were your settings
and your engravings.
On the day that you were created
they were prepared.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I fail to see how regarding heaven as created and God alone as eternal gives Satan attributes he does not have.

Shouldn't this "priestly order that has neither beginning of time nor end of days" refer to Jesus in his divine form before incarnation?

1.There is a huge difference between a created being trapped in chronological time with limited powers and authority, compared to an eternal being that has enjoyed the full splendour of the Glory of God.

2.Yes and also the priests from the order of Melchizedek and the 24 elders bowing before the throne day and night from eternity.

 

[AlexDTX]

1.There is a huge difference between a created being trapped in chronological time with limited powers and authority, compared to an eternal being that has enjoyed the full splendour of the Glory of God.

2.Yes and also the priests from the order of Melchizedek and the 24 elders bowing before the throne day and night from eternity.

I agree with points 1 and 2. How are you applying these points to the OP question of when did Satan fall? Before or after creation week?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Show me your proof from Scripture. Ezekiel 28 says the opposite of your post. But what you believe is what I've been taught all my life. I never questioned it until I read this.

It is always faulty hermeneutics to base something on just one phrase in Scripture without balancing it with the rest of Scripture. True, Ezekiel says that Lucifer was present in Eden, but when you go back to Genesis, we see that he was present in the form of a snake. When we go to Revelation we see a description of a great war in heaven between God and His angels and Satan and his angels. Being an apocalyptic book, there are aspects of past, present and future in its descriptions of events. Linking that with Ezekiel 23 which is part of a prophetic book, then we can see clearly that Lucifer/Satan was not present in the Garden of Eden in his original heavenly form, but in his fallen, sinful state.

And concerning the Fall - Adam blamed Eve, and Eve blamed the snake, and the snake didn't have a leg to stand on!